List of checkered morphs?

[Rushthezeppelin]

Just was curious if anybody had a list of all the morphs currently out there for checkereds. The thing that prompted me was googling melanistic checkered and only coming up with easterns. Was just kinda curious what all my options are for breeding with my normal if and when I decide to do so.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Albino, granite, and pastel. Then you have the super and combo morphs. (super pastel, albino granites, and pastel granites). There might even be some pastel albinos, but i haven't seen any yet.

[Tommytradix]

kinda narrow morph list if your into checkereds lol they need to find the erythristic checkered and anerythristic!!

[Rushthezeppelin]

Would it even be worth the bother to breed a normal to any of the morphs? Is there a chance she might be het for something already that is recessive and not expressed in her but could come out in her kids? Or are the chances really high that she is absolutely normal in which case I would be guaranteed all normals (but chance of being slightly het for w/e I bred her with). Would it be good regardless to get some wild genes into the pet trades genepool even if she isn't het for anything?

[AntTheDestroyer]

Well it depends. I know nothing about checkered garter genetics, but if any of the traits are co-dominant you could end up with non normals even if the mother does not have the gene. The chances of her being recessive for a morph with out you knowing it are extremely low. On the other hand she might be and there is only one way to find out.

[Tommytradix]

Would it even be worth the bother to breed a normal to any of the morphs? Is there a chance she might be het for something already that is recessive and not expressed in her but could come out in her kids? Or are the chances really high that she is absolutely normal in which case I would be guaranteed all normals (but chance of being slightly het for w/e I bred her with). Would it be good regardless to get some wild genes into the pet trades genepool even if she isn't het for anything?
always good to intraduce new genes. that being said any morph you breed her with the offspring will be 100% het for that morph. you would then breed the offspring to eachother to produce the morph

[Zdravko092368]

Someone who is really into garters needs to herp the crap out of checkereds range where they are the most common looking for morphs... they have had only 3 morphs for way too long.

[Rushthezeppelin]

I've got great habitat right near my apartment. I just don't know how to herp very well lol. Any tips or guides you could link? It will be in a creekside environment with some rocks and usually alot of thick overgrowth.

I got my checkered girl when she hitched a ride home with me in my fishing lure bag, so it was total accident.

[Rushthezeppelin]

I guess another thing too. If I'm looking for morphs I might not be able to go off pattern. What are the other indicators of checkered garters (IIRC every garter species has slightly different face scales?)

[Rushthezeppelin]

Well crap doesn't look like here genes are going to make it into the greater pool unless there's some legal loophole (nor would any morphs I caught). Did a little more research and found that while I did collect her validly (with a texas hunting license that I do possess), you can not use indigenous wild caught snakes for commercial purposes. I'm guessing this means I could not sell her babies, although I'd imagine giving them away wouldn't be bad? Should I probably call up the game wardens office to clear this up?

[guidofatherof5]

A book considered the garter snake bible is "The Garter Snake, Evolution and Ecology" by Rossman, Ford and Seigel. It has all the identifiers (supralabials, sublabials, lateral count along with lateral stripe row locations, etc.)
Be sure to get the second addition. Every time I read it I learn something new. Great reference for species I.D.
The Garter Snakes: Evolution and Ecology (Animal Natural History Series): Douglas A. Rossman, Neil B. Ford, Richard A. Seigel: 9780806128207: Amazon.com: Books (http://www.amazon.com/The-Garter-Snakes-Evolution-Ecology/dp/0806128208)

[Albert Clark]

Well crap doesn't look like here genes are going to make it into the greater pool unless there's some legal loophole (nor would any morphs I caught). Did a little more research and found that while I did collect her validly (with a texas hunting license that I do possess), you can not use indigenous wild caught snakes for commercial purposes. I'm guessing this means I could not sell her babies, although I'd imagine giving them away wouldn't be bad? Should I probably call up the game wardens office to clear this up?
Well, I believe the keeping of native species from the wild is a state enforced law also. Unless you are a wildlife rehabilitator, part of a wildlife rescue organization, educational entity such as a veterinary institution or the like. IMO only, I could be wrong.

[Tommytradix]

A book considered the garter snake bible is "The Garter Snake, Evolution and Ecology" by Rossman, Ford and Seigel. It has all the identifiers (supralabials, sublabials, lateral count along with lateral stripe row locations, etc.)
Be sure to get the second addition. Every time I read it I learn something new. Great reference for species I.D.
The Garter Snakes: Evolution and Ecology (Animal Natural History Series): Douglas A. Rossman, Neil B. Ford, Richard A. Seigel: 9780806128207: Amazon.com: Books (http://www.amazon.com/The-Garter-Snakes-Evolution-Ecology/dp/0806128208)
thanks steve!! i just ordered the book. i have a genetics book already but didnt know this was out there

[Rushthezeppelin]

From what I can tell the law talks about collecting them. It says if you have a hunting license with a reptile and amphibian stamp then you can collect reptiles and amphibians from the sides of public roadways and public right of ways. I guess this hinges on what the word collect means, but in my mind that means keep. Or do they possibly mean just roundup and then release? It didn't say anything about releasing but I'm lost on this. I hope I don't have to give Delilah up and let her go again but I don't want to run afoul of state law. I've been searching and searching and searching and have found nothing that says outright ownership as pet of a wild native species is banned (unless of course they are protected in some way which checkered garters are not at the state or national level).

[Rushthezeppelin]

Well found something that clears it up well. http://www.jsdragons.com/Keeping%20Reptiles-Amphibians.pdf

So it looks like with just a hunting license I can collect (which according to this person at least does mean keep) up to 6 of any species if collected on private land (which Delilah was "collected" on private land and my fishing lure bag was sitting up the embankment in the apartments lawn). With the retile/amphibian stamp I can collect from public right of ways. I cannot breed them for commercial purposes (giving them away wouldn't be commercial) although I can get a Non-Game Dealer permit and I would be within the law. Oddly enough even if I bought two checkered (or any other native Texan garter) from within the pet trade from long lines of captives I would still have to have the Non-Game Dealer permit to breed them commercially (or just plain sell wild caught).

Edit: Also the permit is a very reasonable $63 annually. I think I can manage that if I get serious enough with this to do more than maybe donate some babies.

[Albert Clark]

Well, I know the laws vary from state to state also ,and that what I encountered recently was the Dept. of fish and game in the state of Pennsylvania.

[Tommytradix]

Well found something that clears it up well. http://www.jsdragons.com/Keeping%20Reptiles-Amphibians.pdf

So it looks like with just a hunting license I can collect (which according to this person at least does mean keep) up to 6 of any species if collected on private land (which Delilah was "collected" on private land and my fishing lure bag was sitting up the embankment in the apartments lawn). With the retile/amphibian stamp I can collect from public right of ways. I cannot breed them for commercial purposes (giving them away wouldn't be commercial) although I can get a Non-Game Dealer permit and I would be within the law. Oddly enough even if I bought two checkered (or any other native Texan garter) from within the pet trade from long lines of captives I would still have to have the Non-Game Dealer permit to breed them commercially (or just plain sell wild caught).

Edit: Also the permit is a very reasonable $63 annually. I think I can manage that if I get serious enough with this to do more than maybe donate some babies.
$63 per animal?

[Rushthezeppelin]

$63 per animal?

I think it's just a $63 annual permit, unlimited sales I think. Also I'm now 100% I'm well within the law http://tpwd.texas.gov/publications/pwdpubs/media/nongame_regulations_faqs.pdf says I can even have (and it uses the word possess) stuff on the blacklist just can't do anything commercial with them. Figure: 31 TAC §65.331(d) (http://texreg.sos.state.tx.us/fids/200704634-1.html) as you can see here T. Marcianus Marcianus is on the whitelist of those I can have for commercial purposes for the permit fee.

Edit: http://tpwd.texas.gov/publications/pwdforms/media/pwd_1049_w7000_app_dealer_permit_nongame_wildlife. pdf Looks like it's a one time permit fee actually. After that there are fairly strict record keeping requirements and annual reporting.

Also looks like Radix and Sirtalis are on the blacklist. So if I ever get into breeding I'm going to focus mostly on checkereds I suppose ^_^

[BUSHSNAKE]

kinda narrow morph list if your into checkereds lol they need to find the erythristic checkered and anerythristic!!

in order for something to be anery it has to be red or have red pigment...axanthic maybe but not anery

[Tommytradix]

in order for something to be anery it has to be red or have red pigment...axanthic maybe but not anery
what does that have to do with finding a new morph?

[Albert Clark]

Well it depends. I know nothing about checkered garter genetics, but if any of the traits are co-dominant you could end up with non normals even if the mother does not have the gene. The chances of her being recessive for a morph with out you knowing it are extremely low. On the other hand she might be and there is only one way to find out.

Remember it is the normal checkered that made all this possible with the morphs created. So, they are the real foundation of our checkered garter collections. As is the normal ball pythons. Yeah, breed her bc that is what's normal in their lives. Reproduction of reptiles is a great thing to do also.

[Tommytradix]

in order for something to be anery it has to be red or have red pigment...axanthic maybe but not anery
i have an axanthic with red in it. never seen an anery with any other color than blueish black/slate grey

[Albert Clark]

Would it even be worth the bother to breed a normal to any of the morphs? Is there a chance she might be het for something already that is recessive and not expressed in her but could come out in her kids? Or are the chances really high that she is absolutely normal in which case I would be guaranteed all normals (but chance of being slightly het for w/e I bred her with). Would it be good regardless to get some wild genes into the pet trades genepool even if she isn't het for anything?
Its always a good thing to breed your normal to something that is a morph bc you can produce hets. And then breed back the hets to other hets of the same gene or a actual visual morph of w/e she was bred to for a chance at a higher end animal. The normal is the foundation and its a natural instinct for these animals to breed. We are responsible to determine the health of these animals to breed bc it is a very stressful process. Wild genes should be left in the wild, that is my personal opinion. Born free, live free. There is plenty of cbb genes in the hobby to go around we just have to seek it out. Bc it may not just be in the backyard. And yes, the definitive way to find out her staus genetically is to breed her.

[Albert Clark]

i have an axanthic with red in it. never seen an anery with any other color than blueish black/slate grey
I believe what Bushsnake is saying is that with anerythristics, the underlying genetic mutation has red or a red pigment coloration. Bc the term itself scientifically (erythrystic) denotes red. Thus if you have a anerythrystic you have the animal without the red bc the an in anerythrystic denotes without red. Examples are the red sided anerythrystic or the red spotted thus anerythrystic red spotted. Hope this helped bc I almost confused myself.

[Tommytradix]

i took it as there is no red in checkereds so there wouldnt be ery or any ever found. and he was saying its more likely if a dark morph is found it would most likely be axanthic not anery which is why i put ery in front of anery. i was simply saying how nice it would be to see them in more morphs than currently availible

[Tommytradix]

I believe what Bushsnake is saying is that with anerythristics, the underlying genetic mutation has red or a red pigment coloration. Bc the term itself scientifically (erythrystic) denotes red. Thus if you have a anerythrystic you have the animal without the red bc the an in anerythrystic denotes without red. Examples are the red sided anerythrystic or the red spotted thus anerythrystic red spotted. Hope this helped bc I almost confused myself.
thanks albert i have a couple examples in my collection lol

[d_virginiana]

Can't believe I didn't see this thread right off the bat! Been busy getting my new mouse settled in.

So, earlier you asked for tips on herping: Put a large, flat piece of plywood somewhere by your house, kind of half in the sun, half in a moist shaded area (like near the border to a forest or under a shed or something) and check it every day. It's a magnet for snakes, amphibians, and especially invertebrates, so if you're interested in the creepy-crawlies at all bring a tupperware container you can scoop them into and check them out for a bit!

As for herping in natural habitat, looking under decaying logs and large rocks is best. Just be sure to lift them gently. Also, if you're near a creek and happen to have a recently-deceased bait fish, you can lay it on the water's edge near a lot of rocks. I've seen water snakes actually come up and take fish like that. They are most likely to be out and about early or late in the day, but I honestly have better luck finding them at midday when they're all hiding.

***********************

Now, as for breeding, if you care about the well-being of the offspring, it would be worthwhile to check what hets go for with whatever morph you plan on breeding her to. The reason I say this is because baby garters being sold extremely cheaply or given away have a pretty high chance ending up as feeders or with someone who considers them throw-away pets. If your law only refers to wild-caught animals, not native species in general, you SHOULD be able to sell babies that are half albino or whatever as they are not wild... best to call a wildlife official and ask though.

Another option you might be interested in if you'd prefer to work with more interesting morphs would be to purchase a female eastern or radix to live with Delilah, and then find the right eastern or radix male to breed to her. You can house same-sex pairs of different garter species together as long as they are of similar size, and easterns and radix have by FAR the most options for morphs.
Scott Felzer seems to have gotten out of breeding for awhile, but his site albinogartersnake.com has pictures of pretty much all the different species and morphs under 'Price List' if you're interested in going that route. :)

[BUSHSNAKE]

I believe what Bushsnake is saying is that with anerythristics, the underlying genetic mutation has red or a red pigment coloration. Bc the term itself scientifically (erythrystic) denotes red. Thus if you have a anerythrystic you have the animal without the red bc the an in anerythrystic denotes without red. Examples are the red sided anerythrystic or the red spotted thus anerythrystic red spotted. Hope this helped bc I almost confused myself.
all I was saying is that checkered garters cant be anerythristic cuz they have no red pigment, they are naturally anerythristic. I don't wanna confuse anybody so I try to keep my responses very simple and to the point cuz I feel I have usefull knowledge