Accidental Cross Breeding

[liveunderoath]

I have a female checkered garter 100% het albino, and a male checkered albino. Back in March my brother caught a common garter snake and put it in with my checkerd. Before I could remove him he had already started mating with my female. Afterward I released him. My female showed no signs of being gravid, but a little over a week ago she had 28 babies. They all look like normal checkerd garters. I don't know what I should do. They are all healthy and eating nightcrawler pieces and feeder guppies.

[guidofatherof5]

Welcome to the forum. Tough situation you are in. Above all DON'T release them. These snakes should not breed, period. Steps need to be taken to be sure this doesn't happen. They must be kept in captivity by someone that knows about this being a hybrid. On the other end of this discussion is, they should be euthanized. I don't advise this but if they cannot be accounted for the rest of their lives it would be best.
I value life very much but keeping the genetics pure is also very important. This was very hard to respond to.

[Dan72]

Yeah I agree with Steve, it would appear from your telling of the story no attention was paid to a quarantine period which is not very responsible toward the checkerds you have as pets. I don't want to start a soap box, bottom line for people that enjoy the hobby are pure breed lines of snakes. I love ball pythons, garters are not bp's and we don't want them to be. So these guys need a home where it is known what they are and they will not be breed, or put down. :( How sure are you the wild caught is the sire?

[oman]

I absolutely agree with and understand not releasing them, and that if they change owners it should be known they are hybrids. But why should they not be bred at all? Does crossbreeding never happen in the wild where different garters exist? Would they even be able to breed? Is crossbreeding known to cause problems, or is it just a concern for muddying the gene pool?

Sorry for all the questions, but ever since I read a passing remark about hybrids in a thread here, I have been curious. This post roused that curiosity.

[Tommytradix]

Yeah I agree with Steve, it would appear from your telling of the story no attention was paid to a quarantine period which is not very responsible toward the checkerds you have as pets. I don't want to start a soap box, bottom line for people that enjoy the hobby are pure breed lines of snakes. I love ball pythons, garters are not bp's and we don't want them to be. So these guys need a home where it is known what they are and they will not be breed, or put down. :( How sure are you the wild caught is the sire?
if no albinos were produced its a hybrid plain and simple haha i agree with both dan and steve......

[liveunderoath]

I wasn't home and I thought my brother would have known better than to put a wild snake in with mine. I was severely pissed. I am pretty sure that the wild one was the sire because my 2 snakes were bought from Bhb reptiles. The female is supposed to be 100% het albino, and the male is albino.

[liveunderoath]

Will the female be safe to breed to the albino next season?

[Tommytradix]

Will the female be safe to breed to the albino next season?
yes it will be safe and so no albinos were produced right? if its from bhb the hets are correct

[liveunderoath]

yes it will be safe and so no albinos were produced right? if its from bhb the hets are correct
Right. None were albino. And I love garter snakes. I want to eventually get a few more and I would never put 2 different species together.

[Tommytradix]

well steve gave you 2 options to keep them out of the hobby and risk a future breeding

[liveunderoath]

I guess euthanasia will be the best bet, because I don't know many people who keep reptiles and the ones I do know wouldn't want to keep a crossbred. I hate to do it, but I know it's the best thing to do.

[guidofatherof5]

I guess euthanasia will be the best bet, because I don't know many people who keep reptiles and the ones I do know wouldn't want to keep a crossbred. I hate to do it, but I know it's the best thing to do.

I'm saddened by this and will pray for the little ones.
Life is so precious. Sorry, little scrubs.

[Dan72]

I don't know what I was doing that I missed the 100% het for and an albino (duh). Yeah this stinks, I know if you are making the comments you are, purchasing the animals where you did, I have no doubt this falls totally on your bro. Hope he can learn a lesson in this as well, I know it's something you'll never forget. Poor scrubs but for the best. Now seeing as how we are talking about this litter not living, some snakes eat snakes, know anyone? That's not too morbid or wrong, is it????

[liveunderoath]

I don't know what I was doing that I missed the 100% het for and an albino (duh). Yeah this stinks, I know if you are making the comments you are, purchasing the animals where you did, I have no doubt this falls totally on your bro. Hope he can learn a lesson in this as well, I know it's something you'll never forget. Poor scrubs but for the best. Now seeing as how we are talking about this litter not living, some snakes eat snakes, know anyone? That's not too morbid or wrong, is it????
I told him what's going to have to happen to them now and he's pretty upset with himself. I understand he didn't really know better, but now he knows and hopefully will never do anything this stupid again. I Know of a few people that have snakes I think kingsnakes would eat them. I'm a firm believer in only killing an animal if it will become food, so that sounds like a very good option.

[AntTheDestroyer]

I am curious what they look like. Do you have any idea what species the father was?

[liveunderoath]

I am curious what they look like. Do you have any idea what species the father was?
He father was T. sirtalis. They are the only garters native to my area, and I tried to upload pictures, but I haven't been able to figure it out yet.

[liveunderoath]

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/webkit-fake-url://8a5b2acd-cdbc-493d-a713-4d4f330dee05/imagejpeg

[liveunderoath]

here are a couple of pictures

[Dan72]

They do look fairly normal, I have never kept this species so not sure, but it would be reason enough to prove that in the hands of anyone that did not know they were/are a hybrid how easily they could be breed. On a different train of thought, right now they are a mix 50/50, if these scrubs were breed to checkerds and then this offspring breed again, and again. Would the other species eventually be breed out? Or would there always be a trace, all be it small.

[liveunderoath]

They do look fairly normal, I have never kept this species so not sure, but it would be reason enough to prove that in the hands of anyone that did not know they were/are a hybrid how easily they could be breed. On a different train of thought, right now they are a mix 50/50, if these scrubs were breed to checkerds and then this offspring breed again, and again. Would the other species eventually be breed out? Or would there always be a trace, all be it small.
That's an interesting question.

[slipknot711]

liveunderoath where are you located? asking incase anyone lives near you that may have snakes that eat other snakes or know ppl that can make them just pets.

[liveunderoath]

liveunderoath where are you located? asking incase anyone lives near you that may have snakes that eat other snakes or know ppl that can make them just pets.
Tennessee

[Dan72]

That's a bunch of homes to find, but more power to you if you can and do the leg work on that.

[stnick]

They look like Checkered Garter Snakes to me. Is it possible that your female locked up with your male checkered before the introduction of the T.sirtalis male? If so, it is improbable but possible that the clutch didn't produce any amelanistic animals (go buy a lotto ticket). It is also possible and more likely that your female is not heterozygous for amelanism. Is there a lot of variation in the clutch of 28 or do they all look like the two in the pictures? Either way, like everyone else said, it is probably better not to distribute them or release them if you cannot be certain of their lineage. It's too bad because they look like pretty little checkered garter snakes to me.

[liveunderoath]

They look like Checkered Garter Snakes to me. Is it possible that your female locked up with your male checkered before the introduction of the T.sirtalis male? If so, it is improbable but possible that the clutch didn't produce any amelanistic animals (go buy a lotto ticket). It is also possible and more likely that your female is not heterozygous for amelanism. Is there a lot of variation in the clutch of 28 or do they all look like the two in the pictures? Either way, like everyone else said, it is probably better not to distribute them or release them if you cannot be certain of their lineage. It's too bad because they look like pretty little checkered garter snakes to me.
I've never seen them lock up as long as I've had them, but within a few hours the t. sirtalis locked up with her.

[Tommytradix]

they look like easterns to me lol they dont have the block pattern a checkered has

[liveunderoath]

they look like easterns to me lol they dont have the block pattern a checkered has

The first pic is one of my babies. The second is a checkered garter I found online, and the third is the mother.

[bigsnakegirl78]

They definitely look a little like easterns and a little like checkereds for sure! If I didn't have to choose just a couple more snakes to get for the time being, I'd take one in a heartbeat. So sad to hear about them, but hopefully you'll find some kings to eat them.

[liveunderoath]

They definitely look a little like easterns and a little like checkereds for sure! If I didn't have to choose just a couple more snakes to get for the time being, I'd take one in a heartbeat. So sad to hear about them, but hopefully you'll find some kings to eat them.
I also know some science teachers that might take a few for class pets. If so I will definitely make sure they do not breed. Also I may keep one or two for myself just because I'm getting attached.

[stnick]

The checkering does look a little irregular, more frequent, and Easternish. Below are some good pictures of baby Checkered Garters.

http://stevenbolgartersnakes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Foto13_pasgeboren_nakweek_voor_vervelling.jpg
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q112/megaggie2002/IMG_7912.jpg
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg288/SH1988/DSC04980.jpg
DSC04983-Copy.jpg Photo by SH1988 | Photobucket (http://s251.photobucket.com/user/SH1988/media/DSC04983-Copy.jpg.html)

[Eddie]

They look like checkerds to me

[Rushthezeppelin]

They look like checkerds to me

Alot darker than my checkered, granted that doesn't meant a ton though.

[liveunderoath]

They are getting darker and turning brownish.

[ObsidianDragon]

Not only do the checks look a little...blurred, but the head spot also looks a little weird.

I wish I lived closer! I'd take a couple as pets, and er...well, I also have a kingsnake. But alas, I'm too far away. :(

[liveunderoath]

I found a guy around here and he took a couple. He said he used to keep garters and hated the idea of killing them. He also said he has a few friends who might take some in.

[liveunderoath]

Does anybody know what color the skin normally is between the scales of easterns? The babies skin is almost a teal, but the normal checkered's is white. I've tried taking pictures but it doesn't show up on camera.

[Tommytradix]

there is way too much variation in easterns to go by that lol

[Rushthezeppelin]

My checkered has teal skin.

[oman]

I absolutely agree with and understand not releasing them, and that if they change owners it should be known they are hybrids. But why should they not be bred at all? Does crossbreeding never happen in the wild where different garters exist? Would they even be able to breed? Is crossbreeding known to cause problems, or is it just a concern for muddying the gene pool?

Sorry for all the questions, but ever since I read a passing remark about hybrids in a thread here, I have been curious. This post roused that curiosity.
Reposting this because it got thrown in the middle.

[d_virginiana]

Reposting this because it got thrown in the middle.

Okay, yes garters VERY occasionally interbreed in the wild where ranges overlap. This rarely happens, however. There are reasons for differentiation between species; in this case the reasons are primarily geographical and temporal (meaning that slight differences in timing of mating season and brumation could come into play keeping them separate in the wild as well).

It is a concern within the hobby, but also because basically anywhere in the continental US as well as parts of Canada, garters are native. Any escaped or released animals can interbreed with the wild ones in that area (even if they aren't native to it) contaminated the wild gene pool. I'm an ecologist, and that's really serious business that can cause negative effects in wild populations.

[Tommytradix]

Okay, yes garters VERY occasionally interbreed in the wild where ranges overlap. This rarely happens, however. There are reasons for differentiation between species; in this case the reasons are primarily geographical and temporal (meaning that slight differences in timing of mating season and brumation could come into play keeping them separate in the wild as well).

It is a concern within the hobby, but also because basically anywhere in the continental US as well as parts of Canada, garters are native. Any escaped or released animals can interbreed with the wild ones in that area (even if they aren't native to it) contaminated the wild gene pool. I'm an ecologist, and that's really serious business that can cause negative effects in wild populations.
what are the negetive effects?

[AntTheDestroyer]

Okay, yes garters VERY occasionally interbreed in the wild where ranges overlap. This rarely happens, however. There are reasons for differentiation between species; in this case the reasons are primarily geographical and temporal (meaning that slight differences in timing of mating season and brumation could come into play keeping them separate in the wild as well).

It is a concern within the hobby, but also because basically anywhere in the continental US as well as parts of Canada, garters are native. Any escaped or released animals can interbreed with the wild ones in that area (even if they aren't native to it) contaminated the wild gene pool. I'm an ecologist, and that's really serious business that can cause negative effects in wild populations.

Then you should understand that keeping any garter snake that is not specific to your location is just as big a risk to native populations than a hybrid. I am not only talking about the right species but the locality as well. Unless you are breeding a specific locality to only other snakes of that locality with the intention of rereleasing them, then it comes down to entirely about personal preference. Even then if you are not collecting the animals yourself with enough experience to know the different species, then who knows what is in your bloodline.

If you are someone that prefers only "pure" blood snakes than you should probably be very careful who you purchase from. On the other hand I see no problem with someone being curious about hybrids and even breeding them as long as they are honest about it and are willing to deal with the offspring. Very few hybrids in my opinion are attractive so they may be difficult to sell.

[guidofatherof5]

Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should. I think"being curious" is a terrible reason to mess with genetics. Sure, it's easy to justify by saying the risk is the same when housing garters from different geographical locations but in reality it isn't. Purposely placing two snakes together that would never meet in the wild is irresponsible in my opinion, no matter who's doing it. We have been blessed to have such a diverse genus of snakes with naturally occurring morphs that producing hybrids is ridiculous. I mean no offense to anyone but feel very strongly about this issue.

[d_virginiana]

This is going to be a bit long, so I just wanted to be clear I'm not slamming the OP for an accidental breeding. Mistakes happen. I know people on this forum who have taken in hybrid babies before to keep them from being culled. As long as you make sure they go to responsible homes where people know what they've got and why they shouldn't be bred, I think that's absolutely an acceptable alternative to culling.


what are the negetive effects?

That's the crux of the issue; we don't really know. It could end up being harmless. Or it could end up introducing genes into the wild bloodlines that are deleterious to snakes living in that locale, maybe not immediately fatal (that would take care of the problem) but genes that could decrease the species' ability to thrive in the area incrementally. Something that makes them slightly more likely to be eaten or come in/out of brumation slightly too early/too late. That sort of thing could take generations to show up. With all the issues we have in America regarding invasive plant and animal species that no one thought would be harmful at the time of introduction, you can look at things like Kudzu plants, phragmites (it's a grass that's absolutely destroying many wetlands), flying carp, ect. to see how something like introducing a non-native species could potentially be very harmful.


Then you should understand that keeping any garter snake that is not specific to your location is just as big a risk to native populations than a hybrid. I am not only talking about the right species but the locality as well. Unless you are breeding a specific locality to only other snakes of that locality with the intention of rereleasing them, then it comes down to entirely about personal preference. Even then if you are not collecting the animals yourself with enough experience to know the different species, then who knows what is in your bloodline.

If you are someone that prefers only "pure" blood snakes than you should probably be very careful who you purchase from. On the other hand I see no problem with someone being curious about hybrids and even breeding them as long as they are honest about it and are willing to deal with the offspring. Very few hybrids in my opinion are attractive so they may be difficult to sell.

Keeping any garter non-specific to a location isn't just as dangerous as keeping hybrids. Hybrids are MUCH more likely to end up out in the wild than a non-hybrid. There are several reasons for this: Owners who know they have hybrid litters and try to rehome them honestly will generally have a very hard time doing so, ending with someone having more snakes than they can handle. If that person is irresponsible, the easiest solution is to just throw them out in the wild. Additionally, you will not be able to sell these hybrids at a very high price and generally no one active in the garter community wants them, and if you just look to the general public there is a much higher likelihood of them going to someone who doesn't know what they are doing or doesn't care, leading to either escapes or releases. There will always be irresponsible owners of any animal, but the conditions that surround hybrids make them much more likely candidates for release or escape than a responsibly bred garter.

Actually, I don't have to be very careful from who I purchase from if I want a non-hybrid snake. Being a somewhat niche hobby with little to gain financially, the garter community is primarily made up of people dedicated to these animals; and that includes not making hybrids. I refuse to buy a snake without seeing an image of the animal I'm receiving; there is no way I would end up with a hybrid unless someone sent me a fake picture because I would identify it immediately. And if I did somehow end up with one through dishonesty, I would also identify that immediately, never breed the animal, and let everyone in the community know not to buy from that seller. If hybrids flooded the hobby though, you'd end up with people who didn't realize what they had breeding and selling the offspring as the wrong thing.

I'm also somewhat active in the tarantula hobby, where it is MUCH harder to differentiate between species than it is when you're working with snakes. People being 'interested' in what hybrids would look like has created an absolute mess that the people who established the hobby are trying desperately to combat before it reaches the point that no one knows what they're getting (it's already reached that point at the pet store level).

Long story short; curiosity is a terrible reason to breed ANY animal. You're dealing with lives. Any time you breed, you need to be aware of how your actions affect others in the hobby as well as the animals themselves; in this case greatly decreasing their likelihood of going to good homes.

[liveunderoath]

This is going to be a bit long, so I just wanted to be clear I'm not slamming the OP for an accidental breeding. Mistakes happen. I know people on this forum who have taken in hybrid babies before to keep them from being culled. As long as you make sure they go to responsible homes where people know what they've got and why they shouldn't be bred, I think that's absolutely an acceptable alternative to culling.



That's the crux of the issue; we don't really know. It could end up being harmless. Or it could end up introducing genes into the wild bloodlines that are deleterious to snakes living in that locale, maybe not immediately fatal (that would take care of the problem) but genes that could decrease the species' ability to thrive in the area incrementally. Something that makes them slightly more likely to be eaten or come in/out of brumation slightly too early/too late. That sort of thing could take generations to show up. With all the issues we have in America regarding invasive plant and animal species that no one thought would be harmful at the time of introduction, you can look at things like Kudzu plants, phragmites (it's a grass that's absolutely destroying many wetlands), flying carp, ect. to see how something like introducing a non-native species could potentially be very harmful.



Keeping any garter non-specific to a location isn't just as dangerous as keeping hybrids. Hybrids are MUCH more likely to end up out in the wild than a non-hybrid. There are several reasons for this: Owners who know they have hybrid litters and try to rehome them honestly will generally have a very hard time doing so, ending with someone having more snakes than they can handle. If that person is irresponsible, the easiest solution is to just throw them out in the wild. Additionally, you will not be able to sell these hybrids at a very high price and generally no one active in the garter community wants them, and if you just look to the general public there is a much higher likelihood of them going to someone who doesn't know what they are doing or doesn't care, leading to either escapes or releases. There will always be irresponsible owners of any animal, but the conditions that surround hybrids make them much more likely candidates for release or escape than a responsibly bred garter.

Actually, I don't have to be very careful from who I purchase from if I want a non-hybrid snake. Being a somewhat niche hobby with little to gain financially, the garter community is primarily made up of people dedicated to these animals; and that includes not making hybrids. I refuse to buy a snake without seeing an image of the animal I'm receiving; there is no way I would end up with a hybrid unless someone sent me a fake picture because I would identify it immediately. And if I did somehow end up with one through dishonesty, I would also identify that immediately, never breed the animal, and let everyone in the community know not to buy from that seller. If hybrids flooded the hobby though, you'd end up with people who didn't realize what they had breeding and selling the offspring as the wrong thing.

I'm also somewhat active in the tarantula hobby, where it is MUCH harder to differentiate between species than it is when you're working with snakes. People being 'interested' in what hybrids would look like has created an absolute mess that the people who established the hobby are trying desperately to combat before it reaches the point that no one knows what they're getting (it's already reached that point at the pet store level).

Long story short; curiosity is a terrible reason to breed ANY animal. You're dealing with lives. Any time you breed, you need to be aware of how your actions affect others in the hobby as well as the animals themselves; in this case greatly decreasing their likelihood of going to good homes.
This makes a lot more sense than just saying it muddies the gene pool. Thank you.

[Tommytradix]

no hybrids is like garter law #1 lol

[guidofatherof5]

no hybrids is like garter law #1 lol

It certainly should be.

[AntTheDestroyer]

Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should. I think"being curious" is a terrible reason to mess with genetics. Sure, it's easy to justify by saying the risk is the same when housing garters from different geographical locations but in reality it isn't. Purposely placing two snakes together that would never meet in the wild is irresponsible in my opinion, no matter who's doing it. We have been blessed to have such a diverse genus of snakes with naturally occurring morphs that producing hybrids is ridiculous. I mean no offense to anyone but feel very strongly about this issue.
Many people would say the same about the entire snake pet industry. Also the entire industry revolves around messing with genetics. Unfortunately there are risks involved in keeping any snake that is not from your locality. Your argument applies to all captive non locality snakes hybrids and not. It is absolutely the same to keep a snake that is capable of producing hybrids than to keep a hybrid itself. In the end if it escapes then you have hybrids in the wild regardless. In the case of the OP the if his babies escape and breed their offspring would be much closer to the wild type than if any one of your snakes did.

[AntTheDestroyer]

This is going to be a bit long, so I just wanted to be clear I'm not slamming the OP for an accidental breeding. Mistakes happen. I know people on this forum who have taken in hybrid babies before to keep them from being culled. As long as you make sure they go to responsible homes where people know what they've got and why they shouldn't be bred, I think that's absolutely an acceptable alternative to culling.



That's the crux of the issue; we don't really know. It could end up being harmless. Or it could end up introducing genes into the wild bloodlines that are deleterious to snakes living in that locale, maybe not immediately fatal (that would take care of the problem) but genes that could decrease the species' ability to thrive in the area incrementally. Something that makes them slightly more likely to be eaten or come in/out of brumation slightly too early/too late. That sort of thing could take generations to show up. With all the issues we have in America regarding invasive plant and animal species that no one thought would be harmful at the time of introduction, you can look at things like Kudzu plants, phragmites (it's a grass that's absolutely destroying many wetlands), flying carp, ect. to see how something like introducing a non-native species could potentially be very harmful.



Keeping any garter non-specific to a location isn't just as dangerous as keeping hybrids. Hybrids are MUCH more likely to end up out in the wild than a non-hybrid. There are several reasons for this: Owners who know they have hybrid litters and try to rehome them honestly will generally have a very hard time doing so, ending with someone having more snakes than they can handle. If that person is irresponsible, the easiest solution is to just throw them out in the wild. Additionally, you will not be able to sell these hybrids at a very high price and generally no one active in the garter community wants them, and if you just look to the general public there is a much higher likelihood of them going to someone who doesn't know what they are doing or doesn't care, leading to either escapes or releases. There will always be irresponsible owners of any animal, but the conditions that surround hybrids make them much more likely candidates for release or escape than a responsibly bred garter.

Actually, I don't have to be very careful from who I purchase from if I want a non-hybrid snake. Being a somewhat niche hobby with little to gain financially, the garter community is primarily made up of people dedicated to these animals; and that includes not making hybrids. I refuse to buy a snake without seeing an image of the animal I'm receiving; there is no way I would end up with a hybrid unless someone sent me a fake picture because I would identify it immediately. And if I did somehow end up with one through dishonesty, I would also identify that immediately, never breed the animal, and let everyone in the community know not to buy from that seller. If hybrids flooded the hobby though, you'd end up with people who didn't realize what they had breeding and selling the offspring as the wrong thing.

I'm also somewhat active in the tarantula hobby, where it is MUCH harder to differentiate between species than it is when you're working with snakes. People being 'interested' in what hybrids would look like has created an absolute mess that the people who established the hobby are trying desperately to combat before it reaches the point that no one knows what they're getting (it's already reached that point at the pet store level).

Long story short; curiosity is a terrible reason to breed ANY animal. You're dealing with lives. Any time you breed, you need to be aware of how your actions affect others in the hobby as well as the animals themselves; in this case greatly decreasing their likelihood of going to good homes.
Your argument is based entirely on a hypothetical situation that does not follow any real world case. The biggest problem wildlife are currently facing that stems from the pet snake industry has to do with a non native pure bred species.

Line breeding is far more detrimental to a population than creating hybrids due the build up of recessive negative traits. As a ecologist you should know that the most healthy thing you can do for a lineage is to add new genes to the pool.

I am not even saying I would like to own a garter hybrid, but just that it just a matter of opinion. I think you should keep to the truths about hybrids like that they are not desirable in the industry and you will not make money. Truthfully there is always a way to get rid of unwanted babies whether that be giving them away or finding someone with a snake eater. Your assumption that most people in the industry are interested in breeding snakes is simply wrong. For the record the only reason this whole community exists is because people start to breed snakes out of curiosity.

I agree that people need to know the risks of breeding hybrids, but I just don't think some think about the possible negative effects of owning snakes in general.

[d_virginiana]

I just... don't understand your argument. Can you come up with one positive to either the hobby or the snakes that would come from purposefully breeding hybrids? And unless someone is prepared to care for 30 babies their entire lives if things don't work out like they want, 'curiosity' is not an acceptable reason. I'm just not sure why you're trying so hard to defend the idea...

Also, I'm not stalking the forum, just an insomniac. :rolleyes:

EDIT: Woah. Wrote this before you responded to mine. Can you name ONE example of a negative trait in captive garters that is caused by inbreeding/line breeding? Just ONE. Excluding the San Frans in Europe... that whole population comes from about 14 individuals and is not representative of any other captive garter species.
Genetic bottlenecks only become deleterious at FAR greater levels of inbreeding than what we see in the garter hobby. Any responsible breeder will outcross their lines every few generations to avoid passing on negative traits and refuse to breed garters that have negative traits. With the supply of wild and unrelated garters in the hobby the 'inbreeding' you're talking about is kind of nonexistent.

By the way, the scenario I proposed about a foreign species hybridizing with a local population and having potentially harmful effects is ENTIRELY plausible. No, I don't have a specific case study of hybrid garters to back that up, only common sense.

Also, when did I say everyone in the industry is interested in breeding snakes? You don't have to want to breed to end up with a litter of babies. How likely do you really think it is that someone who gets snakes for free (like what you suggested to get rid of the babies... which, by the way, is just not a responsible plan at all. It's treating the animals like they're completely worthless and likely dooming them to pretty horrible lives...) is going to be able to sex and separate them properly?

[AntTheDestroyer]

I just... don't understand your argument. Can you come up with one positive to either the hobby or the snakes that would come from purposefully breeding hybrids? And unless someone is prepared to care for 30 babies their entire lives if things don't work out like they want, 'curiosity' is not an acceptable reason. I'm just not sure why you're trying so hard to defend the idea...

Also, I'm not stalking the forum, just an insomniac. :rolleyes:

Yeah me too.
Yes I can, two words Imperial Pueblan. Personally I don't see a good a reason to breed snakes at all, but I am sure not going to jump all over you for it. My point is that it is a matter of preference not fact. I do not like false arguments.

[d_virginiana]

My preference doesn't harm the hobby...

Also, if you don't like false arguments, you probably shouldn't try to apply milksnake genetics to garters. If my hypothesis is no good, I'm not sure why you think bringing up examples from totally unrelated animals somehow justifies something.

[AntTheDestroyer]

You did not ask me if there was any specific reason in the garter snake community and the correlation has nothing to do with milk snake genetics. There are some really neat looking hybrids across many of the captive bred species, so can you say that a garter hybridization could not produce something interesting?

Do you not see that if one of your pure bred garters were to escape there is just as much possibility in producing a hybrid? People tend to assume that pure bred captive snakes are somehow better for nature which in not true. The second you bring an animal far from its home to live in a cage it is an entirely different situation, and I think it is responsible to be honest about the true implications.

The garter snake community is unique in that it is small and has a handful of dedicated breeders. Personally I would prefer if it stayed that way, be they producing hybrids or not. I think there are far more problems that would occur if many start breeding pure lines than if a handful produce hybrids. Just to be clear line breeding does not inherently include outcrossing, but I am glad you know it is necessary. Over saturation could certainly hurt the hobby.

I am assuming you took a genetics class and that you discussed all that I am saying. Your hypothetical relies on several unreasonable premises. First is that a person is unable to take their babies into a shop to get sexed. Second that giving the offspring to someone they know is less safe then some random stranger, like say over the internet. Third and most importantly that the individual is not educated enough to understand releasing captive bred animals into the wild is harmful.

[guidofatherof5]

Do you not see that if one of your pure bred garters were to escape there is just as much possibility in producing a hybrid? People tend to assume that pure bred captive snakes are somehow better for nature which in not true. The second you bring an animal far from its home to live in a cage it is an entirely different situation, and I think it is responsible to be honest about the true implications.


An escaped garter has far less of a chance of creating hybrids then placing two different species together in an enclosure. You do realize that don't you?
This idea of "producing something interesting" is just the thought process that creates the problems for the pure genetic lines in the first place.

[d_virginiana]

You did not ask me if there was any specific reason in the garter snake community and the correlation has nothing to do with milk snake genetics. There are some really neat looking hybrids across many of the captive bred species, so can you say that a garter hybridization could not produce something interesting?

Do you not see that if one of your pure bred garters were to escape there is just as much possibility in producing a hybrid? People tend to assume that pure bred captive snakes are somehow better for nature which in not true. The second you bring an animal far from its home to live in a cage it is an entirely different situation, and I think it is responsible to be honest about the true implications.

The garter snake community is unique in that it is small and has a handful of dedicated breeders. Personally I would prefer if it stayed that way, be they producing hybrids or not. I think there are far more problems that would occur if many start breeding pure lines than if a handful produce hybrids. Just to be clear line breeding does not inherently include outcrossing, but I am glad you know it is necessary. Over saturation could certainly hurt the hobby.

I am assuming you took a genetics class and that you discussed all that I am saying. Your hypothetical relies on several unreasonable premises. First is that a person is unable to take their babies into a shop to get sexed. Second that giving the offspring to someone they know is less safe then some random stranger, like say over the internet. Third and most importantly that the individual is not educated enough to understand releasing captive bred animals into the wild is harmful.

Okay, first off I apologize for getting a bit snippy yesterday. I was approaching 48 hours with no sleep and kind of degraded into sniping near the end rather than saying anything useful.

First of all, you assume all people's garters come from across the country. If my oldest guy would actually be a GREAT candidate to add to the wild gene pool since he's made it to twice his expected life span without so much as a retained eyecap and was locally collected (well... the mother was wild caught and given to a local petstore when they realized she was gravid).
Also, if he were released into the wild where say, there were easterns (what he is) and red-sideds, he would mate with EASTERNS. There is a reason these animals show separate species in the wild where their ranges overlap. In close to 20 years of avid herping I have never seen a hybrid, and only once seen an integrade; a mix of two subspecies rather than actual separate species (it was a yellow/black ratsnake integrade).

Garter hybrids almost ALWAYS look like mud. You can mix two stunning adults of different species and the babies are going to be duller than either.

To be clear I am against ANY irresponsible breeding. Be it the production of hybrids or purposefully inbreeding garters to the point of causing problems.

Ha. Haha.... Ha. *A* genetics class. I wish I only had to take *A* genetics class. What you are talking about has nothing to do with genetics, and everything to do with hypothetical human intervention. You realize that, right?
It is not 'unreasonable' to suggest that most people would be able to take their babies to a shop to get sexed. No one at a given pet shop can sex ANY snake, much less safely sex a baby garter. I've had them for over 15 years and I won't even try popping them for fear of harming them. A typical hobbyist needs to either find an experienced breeder or vet to do this, and no, most people do not have access to that.
I never even said someone giving a snake to someone they know is less safe than giving them to a stranger. I said that snakes given away for free to the general public are MUCH more likely to go to someone who doesn't know what they are doing. You'll never see a responsible breeder advertising on, say, Craigslist. A snake bred for desirable genetics with a $200 pricetag and advertised within the community is far more likely to go to someone who knows what they are doing.
Finally, MANY individuals think releasing an animal into the wild is perfectly fine, especially when it comes to native species. This is not an uncommon phenomenon and I'm not sure how you haven't heard of it. Not all people think that, but it's certainly not uncommon.

Again, NONE of those things had anything to do with genetics.

[AntTheDestroyer]

An escaped garter has far less of a chance of creating hybrids then placing two different species together in an enclosure. You do realize that don't you?
This idea of "producing something interesting" is just the thought process that creates the problems for the pure genetic lines in the first place.

No kidding? I guess I have to explain myself more clearly. A snake is only a threat to wild populations if it is in the wild. Two snakes in a cage are not. My point is that you can not use the argument of hybrids hurting wild populations as they are no more dangerous than the species you own.

[AntTheDestroyer]

Okay, first off I apologize for getting a bit snippy yesterday. I was approaching 48 hours with no sleep and kind of degraded into sniping near the end rather than saying anything useful.

First of all, you assume all people's garters come from across the country. If my oldest guy would actually be a GREAT candidate to add to the wild gene pool since he's made it to twice his expected life span without so much as a retained eyecap and was locally collected (well... the mother was wild caught and given to a local petstore when they realized she was gravid).
Also, if he were released into the wild where say, there were easterns (what he is) and red-sideds, he would mate with EASTERNS. There is a reason these animals show separate species in the wild where their ranges overlap. In close to 20 years of avid herping I have never seen a hybrid, and only once seen an integrade; a mix of two subspecies rather than actual separate species (it was a yellow/black ratsnake integrade).

Garter hybrids almost ALWAYS look like mud. You can mix two stunning adults of different species and the babies are going to be duller than either.

To be clear I am against ANY irresponsible breeding. Be it the production of hybrids or purposefully inbreeding garters to the point of causing problems.

Ha. Haha.... Ha. *A* genetics class. I wish I only had to take *A* genetics class. What you are talking about has nothing to do with genetics, and everything to do with hypothetical human intervention. You realize that, right?
It is not 'unreasonable' to suggest that most people would be able to take their babies to a shop to get sexed. No one at a given pet shop can sex ANY snake, much less safely sex a baby garter. I've had them for over 15 years and I won't even try popping them for fear of harming them. A typical hobbyist needs to either find an experienced breeder or vet to do this, and no, most people do not have access to that.
I never even said someone giving a snake to someone they know is less safe than giving them to a stranger. I said that snakes given away for free to the general public are MUCH more likely to go to someone who doesn't know what they are doing. You'll never see a responsible breeder advertising on, say, Craigslist. A snake bred for desirable genetics with a $200 pricetag and advertised within the community is far more likely to go to someone who knows what they are doing.
Finally, MANY individuals think releasing an animal into the wild is perfectly fine, especially when it comes to native species. This is not an uncommon phenomenon and I'm not sure how you haven't heard of it. Not all people think that, but it's certainly not uncommon.

Again, NONE of those things had anything to do with genetics.

Uhg. I was referring to the part about line breeding and recessive trait propagation. You need to stop trying to find arguments where they do not exists.

Most garter snakes do not go for $200 or more. If this were the case I don't know if the hobby would grow much, so maybe it is a good idea but I know I would be out.

You admitted that your hypothetical was not based on fact but common sense, so I don't think there is much more to argue about. I just think there are more important issues in the hobby to waste your energy on.

[AntTheDestroyer]

As repeating myself is a pet peeve of mine, I think I have to graciously bow out of this conversation.

[d_virginiana]

As repeating myself is a pet peeve of mine, I think I have to graciously bow out of this conversation.

Probably a good idea, because you're not winning anyone over. We are a group of people who are passionate about the well-being of this hobby and the animals involved.

[Tommytradix]

Uhg. I was referring to the part about line breeding and recessive trait propagation. You need to stop trying to find arguments where they do not exists.

Most garter snakes do not go for $200 or more. If this were the case I don't know if the hobby would grow much, so maybe it is a good idea but I know I would be out.

You admitted that your hypothetical was not based on fact but common sense, so I don't think there is much more to argue about. I just think there are more important issues in the hobby to waste your energy on.
i have a couple garter morphs in my collection that go for $200+ lol

[muggy2419]

Why should the hybrids not be bred? What is so bad about hybrids? Can it cause physical defects or sickness or any real problems, or is it just frowned upon in the hobby?

[Rushthezeppelin]

Why should the hybrids not be bred? What is so bad about hybrids? Can it cause physical defects or sickness or any real problems, or is it just frowned upon in the hobby?

Might want to read through the whole thread. I think everyone's already explained their viewpoints pretty clearly.

[liveunderoath]

I figured you guys might want an update on my hybrids. I gave most of them away to friends who will be able to take care of them, and a few sadly went to a guy that fed them to his kingsnakes. I decided to keep 5 of them. One just had its 2nd shed and has a very pretty light olive/ yellow tint and I have one of the siblings as a comparison.

[slipknot711]

im in love with the first little scrub.

[liveunderoath]

im in love with the first little scrub.
So am I. I hope they all turn out as pretty after they shed.

[liveunderoath]

It seems closer to the head they look more like checkerds, and as it gets closer to the tail they look more like easterns.

[Zdravko092368]

It seems closer to the head they look more like checkerds, and as it gets closer to the tail they look more like easterns.

Seems that way, the head on the first scrub looks very checkered. I like them, if I was in the states I probably would have taken one as a personal pet to never breed.

[Rushthezeppelin]

If it wasnt 105 here in Texas I would have taken one of the girls, glad you got things sorted out though.