communal housing and different sized snakes

[Rook]

hello, I haven't been on here in forever, but I have a question! my older garter, Miami(approx 9-10 years) has been a little depressed lately and my mom thinks housing her with Morbia, my 3 year old garter, will perk her up. what worries me in the size difference, everything I have read says "similar size" snakes, but while they are both female Checkered's they are really not of similar size. my mom thinks Moriba is "big enough" and she is certainly not tiny but...the size difference makes me really uneasy. I have attached a picture of each, ignore the object I tried to use for scale, its right next to Moriba but half way between Miami and the camera as she was aggressing at it. I think the size difference is still pretty obvious in the pictures, and Miami is a full foot longer. do you think it would be safe to try housing them together, or is the size difference too much? Miami is a female Checkered, Morbia is a female Albino Checkered.(note the pictures were taken at the same distance, I am NOT anymore zoomed in on Miami then I am on Morbia)


I just read on the older snakes thread that housing an older snake with a younger snake could stress them out, so maybe a no-go anyway? I don't know Miami's age but she is at LEAST 9-10 years old, Morbia was 3 as of June 11th.

[d_virginiana]

Generally two adult females should be fine to be housed together. After all, males and females are housed together all the time and that's an even bigger size difference. The size thing is mainly aimed at making sure an older snake doesn't harm one that isn't fully grown yet.

That being said, what is the snake doing that makes you think she's 'depressed'? They don't really have the capacity to become 'depressed' or 'lonely'. Sometimes in snakes that are stressed, having a companion will calm them down (makes them feel like they've got less of a chance of being eaten lol). I'm asking because 'depression' makes me think of listlessness, not eating, and a decrease in activity. Older snakes aren't as energetic as younger ones and often don't eat as much as they used to, so I feel like that's probably what you're seeing. However, anything like severe lethargy or decreased tongue-flicking when you handle or introduce something new can be a sign that something is medically wrong, and you don't want to introduce a new snake if that's the case.

[Rook]

she has lost weight and she virtually never leaves her hide or moves around much, never comes out to "hunt" at all anymore though happliy eats anything you put in her face, the most drastic change is how aggressive she's been acting, she has always been extremely docile and friendly, but now I can't even look at her without her rearing back and repeatedly striking at me.

[d_virginiana]

It's harder to keep weight on older snakes. What do you feed? I moved my oldest snake (15) over to a completely pinkie diet a few years ago. Higher fat and protein content. Still has issues keeping weight up, but he's also not a great eater to begin with.

It's entirely possible her vision may be getting worse. You could try just leaving your hand in the enclosure with her for an extended period and not moving, and see if she eventually comes over to you calmly after getting your smell. It'd be a pain to do, but they're highly visual snakes so it might be a good idea to get her used to thinking of you as 'smell first, sight second'. My oldest one is completely blind (not that common, yours probably won't ever go completely blind) and that's sort of what I did with him as he was losing his sight.

With her acting that way I probably wouldn't put in a cagemate at the moment. At least until you figure out what's causing the change in behavior. If it's possible that she either isn't feeling great because of general aging stuff or may be dealing with some vision loss, a new snake could just stress her more.

[Rook]

she eats 4-6 week old Gerbils that we breed ourselves- should we try going younger and more of them? I don't think we could keep up the supply for that in our own breeding though :/

I never even thought about her vision going, that makes a lot of sense though, thanks!

[d_virginiana]

Do the gerbils have hair on them? If they do I'd strongly suggest moving to something that doesn't have hair. We've had several members on here lose snakes to impaction from fur; it just seems like their systems aren't really meant to handle it. It certainly doesn't happen every time, but it's definitely a risk. I also imagine that risk would go up as the snake gets older and things aren't working at 100% anymore. This is complete conjecture, so no solid evidence to back it up, but she may be able to process something without fur more efficiently and get more out of it since her system wouldn't have to deal with material like fur that can't be digested.
Other than that, any rodent is probably the best way to go for diet.

[Rook]

yes they are fully furred. hmm never heard of that, what would you suggest that could possibly be big enough and not yet furred?

(old picture, she is bigger then this now)
12320

rats maybe? what she eats now is basically the equivalent of 2 adult mice per meal, and sometimes she isn't satisfied with that..

[guidofatherof5]

I'd suggest taking the fur out of the diet. You might have to feed more of the younger prey but that's better then a fur impaction.

[Tommytradix]

yes they are fully furred. hmm never heard of that, what would you suggest that could possibly be big enough and not yet furred?

(old picture, she is bigger then this now)
12320

rats maybe? what she eats now is basically the equivalent of 2 adult mice per meal, and sometimes she isn't satisfied with that..
i use hairless weened mice, hairless hoppers and pinks you can get them from Frozen Mice, Frozen Rats, Rabbits, Guinea Pigs, Chicks and Quail (http://www.rodentpro.com/?gclid=CjwKEAjw8qetBRCj6vKH8IC_kwoSJADGQ8dSMyU9G2t NUJ3caFr7nkMY04cTsqUhxVNZ92BpTVJYtRoCuUfw_wcB)

[Rook]

i use hairless weened mice, hairless hoppers and pinks you can get them from Frozen Mice, Frozen Rats, Rabbits, Guinea Pigs, Chicks and Quail (http://www.rodentpro.com/?gclid=CjwKEAjw8qetBRCj6vKH8IC_kwoSJADGQ8dSMyU9G2t NUJ3caFr7nkMY04cTsqUhxVNZ92BpTVJYtRoCuUfw_wcB)

thanks I will check that site out. pinkie mice ain't gonna cut it, she's 3.5 feet and over 400grams, she would need like 15 a week lol. what about feeding her fish? is that recommended? or perhaps rat hoppers(do they still call them that in rats?) looking that that sight rat fuzzies are 13-20g would that be ok? with the peach fuzz? the rat pinkie size seems to range an awful lot, she would need anywhere from 3-5 of them per meal :/

[Rook]

totally just saw the hairless hoppers 7-13 grams, so like 2-3 per meal, that's reasonable!

edit: naturally they don't ship to Canada, found a Canadian supplier but they don't offer hairless hoppers, anyone know where I could source something like that in Canada? I have always bred my own food for all my snakes, so I haven't a clue where to source it from!

[Albert Clark]

12321Have you thought about breeding either one or both of them at any time? Wow, 400gms of garter snake is a lot. Is that her weight on a empty stomach? My albino checkered female is 320gms.

[d_virginiana]

totally just saw the hairless hoppers 7-13 grams, so like 2-3 per meal, that's reasonable!

edit: naturally they don't ship to Canada, found a Canadian supplier but they don't offer hairless hoppers, anyone know where I could source something like that in Canada? I have always bred my own food for all my snakes, so I haven't a clue where to source it from!

I've always fed pinkie mice to mine, just in large quantities when needed. You might have to look into doing that while you hunt down a source for hairless food items.

[Rook]

12321Have you thought about breeding either one or both of them at any time? Wow, 400gms of garter snake is a lot. Is that her weight on a empty stomach? My albino checkered female is 320gms.

only brief flashes followed by "but what the heck would we do with a bunch of baby Garters?" lol. and yes thats empty stomach weight, she is a seriously enormous Garter lol

this is Miami a year ago
12322

[Tommytradix]

my axanthic is probly over 400 grams lol never weighed her but shes 39 inches and very robust. and sorry didnt even realize you were in canada

[Rook]

my axanthic is probly over 400 grams lol never weighed her but shes 39 inches and very robust. and sorry didnt even realize you were in canada

yay another big one! lol Miami is 42" and at you can see in the picture on her on my dog, she is very large over all. Moriba is a good size but Miami makes her look like a shrimp lol

[Tommytradix]

1232312324

[d_virginiana]

Wait... Do you have a kiddie pool for your snakes? That is hilarious.

Some snakes are just giants. My old male is just over 3 ft long. Absolutely dwarfs all the other males I've seen. It's so extreme I actually thought my others were sick or stunted at first lol. (and he's definitely male too; his breeding season behavior pretty much confirms it)

[Rook]

1232312324

there ya go! now that's Miami sized Garter!

[Rook]

Some snakes are just giants. My old male is just over 3 ft long. Absolutely dwarfs all the other males I've seen. It's so extreme I actually thought my others were sick or stunted at first lol. (and he's definitely male too; his breeding season behavior pretty much confirms it)

lol we had Garter's prior to Miami so we were NOT expecting her size, we imported her from Florida through a 3rd party so I never saw her until she arrived, we were expecting this snake similar in size of Rook when I lost her, and this absolutely huge snake arrives, we looked at her and had to go get all new stuff because she dwarfed everything we had..then she still grew a whole 'nuther foot on top of that!

[d_virginiana]

we imported her from Florida

That may explain a lot. Florida locales kind of have a reputation for especially large individuals. The Florida Blue morph of Easterns (which is what the male I was talking about is) seem to be larger than a lot of other Easterns.

[Tommytradix]

Wait... Do you have a kiddie pool for your snakes? That is hilarious.

Some snakes are just giants. My old male is just over 3 ft long. Absolutely dwarfs all the other males I've seen. It's so extreme I actually thought my others were sick or stunted at first lol. (and he's definitely male too; his breeding season behavior pretty much confirms it)
yes! ahaha they need to exercise some way lol swimming is great exercise and they dont run off into my yard lol its half deflated so they can climb out but i just keep putting them back in gives me a lil exercise too lol

[Zdravko092368]

That may explain a lot. Florida locales kind of have a reputation for especially large individuals. The Florida Blue morph of Easterns (which is what the male I was talking about is) seem to be larger than a lot of other Easterns.


I've noticed Florida blues are huge, idk if they are on average bigger than the melanistic easterns on lake Erie though, every female I find is 3 feet, it's like the average size lol.

[d_virginiana]

I've noticed Florida blues are huge, idk if they are on average bigger than the melanistic easterns on lake Erie though, every female I find is 3 feet, it's like the average size lol.

I love melanistics! I really want one.

I once caught a Florida blue female that was pushing four feet (she was just chilling on an old camping road, so I laid down and used myself as a ruler lol). No idea if that's the norm or not, but that one at least was an absolute monster.

[Albert Clark]

12325My blue Puget 0.1 is a monster also. She weighed in @ 338gms empty last month.:D Still looking for a boyfriend for her, haha. :D

[d_virginiana]

12325My blue Puget 0.1 is a monster also. She weighed in @ 338gms empty last month.:D Still looking for a boyfriend for her, haha. :D

Pretty lady :)

I can't wait till I have the funds to branch out and start working with some of the other species of garter. Pugets and infernalis are at the top of my list.