First time babies

[Intra]

Hello,

I have had my two garters for 2 years now, and the female never showed much interest in the male's courting attempts.
I noticed early this week she was behaving strange, and sure enough yesterday at work I got a call from my brother saying that she starting giving birth.

I use aspen shavings for my snakes and I was worried this may be too dry for the babies. So I bought a 5.5 gal tank with a little hide and water dish, and laid paper towel as substrate. I dug through the aspen to find the babies and put them in the new tank. There are 13 babies (2 albinos), plus one that was already dead when I came home (never made it out of the sac :( ). I tried cutting up some pinkies to feed them, but none of them seem interested.

Being the first time I have had babies, I have some questions
1. Is 13 babies too much for a 5.5 gal tank?
2. I heard they need moisture, what would you recommend? So far I placed a couple of damp paper towel balls, one in the enclosure and outside.
3. I have also heard that sometimes they do not eat for 10 days. From your experiences, is this usually the case?
4. Can they overheat if I am using an under the tank heater?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

[slipknot711]

dampen the paper towels to get the first shed off. try using cut up worms for food. for me the movement seemed to get them interested in eating. i have some that eat within the first two days some take up to two weeks. thas all i can help with at this time. im sure someone else will join in

[Intra]

Thanks I will try some worms.
Here are some pictures if anyone is interested.
12233122341223512236

[guidofatherof5]

Congrats on your babies. Hydration is paramount.
Not all newborns eat right away. I offer food every day until everyone is eating. Some neonates have a very small window of opportunity to eat. Missing that time can be big trouble. Understand also that some neonates are never going to eat. I lost one so far out of my last group born. I worry about the babies for the first year. "Failure to thrive" is a situation that occurs, personally I think these snakes have developmental issues that can't be overcome. For a few years I force fed these snakes. Sometimes they would start eating on their own only to crash quickly and die. I don't force feed any neonates now. I let nature take over.
With all that being said all you can do is your best. Newborn garters are great, watching them take their first meal is exciting. Keep us posted on your progress.

[Albert Clark]

Welcome to the forum Intra! Glad you joined us. Congrats on the new arrivals, we all know how exciting that is. Make sure you moisten the whole area of paper towels for the babies. They should be kept warm but be sure they have a cool area to escape to as well. If you plan on using a uth then you will need to have it regulated by a thermostat. One side of the tank can be the warm side and the other the cool side. plenty of places to hide is necessary. Nice job!

[d_virginiana]

If they don't go for worms and pinkie bits small live guppies in a shallow dish of water will also get some eating. Fish aren't great as a long-term food, but they can sometimes do the trick for non-eaters.

I agree with Steve. Some are just never going to eat. Out of seven non-eaters that had gotten into really bad shape that I tried to help out a bit over a year ago, only one made it. He seems to have neurological damage, and in retrospect I think that he just needed help homing in on the prey rather than being a true ftt. A couple others did what Steve described, improving to suddenly crash later.

[Tommytradix]

welcome!

evryone already answered the questions so i have a question lol what species are they? they look like red sideds to me but hard to make out from the distances at which the photos were taken.

[Tommytradix]

oh and that setup looks perfect for them. great job for never having a litter

[Tommytradix]

i like using deli cup lids to feed on so its easy for them to see it and try putting the food right in front of the hide so they feel safe when eating and only have to poke theyre head out to get it

[Intra]

Thanks for the help guys. I tried the worms and they went for them, no problem. Now I just gotta make sure each of them is eating.

I don't really know what species. Both parents were yellow/black, I thought they were just Common Garter Snakes (T. sirtalis)

[Zdravko092368]

Post pictures of the parents and we can probably identify them for you.

[Dan72]

Yes pics of parents please. If they are both "normal" looking then you proved them both to be het for albino just stinks your ratios could have been better.

[Intra]

Here are some pictures
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[Dan72]

Intra are these purchased from someone and you knew they were het for albino, or are they wild caught?

[Tommytradix]

can you take a closer pic of the baby albinos?

[Intra]

I caught them from the wild. What does 'het' mean exactly?

Also, I live in Ontario if that helps identify them.

[Intra]

Here some pics of the albinos
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[Dan72]

Wow that is awesome, I'm not sure what the odds on that are but I'm guessing it's a bet Vegas would have taken. In order to produce an albino both the dame and the sire must carry the gene. Look at Jeff Benfer's website he breaks it down in a way that even this dummy gets it. ;) The fact that you went into an area and collected to animals that happened to have been carrying the gene, pretty wild. Now maybe I'm getting ahead of things, few more questions. Did you know when collecting the two you had a male and female? If so, the female became gravid this year from bringing her in and the males courting of her. She was not already gravid? I'm guessing not gravid from the wild because the male would have had no interest. Pretty cool.

[Intra]

Well I found them together in a park, inside a backpack that was laying on the ground. At the time, I had no idea what sex they were, but later realized one was male and the other was female. I have had them for 2 years now (found them July 2013), and they have been living together in the same tank. But this is the first time he has successfully courted her and she has had babies.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis and it look's like you have a new strain of albino on your hands! That's awesome! Congrats on the little scrubs! Now if you could get some nice canadian flames and orange easterns to breed to some of them! Lol!

[stnick]

That's awesome. Congratulations on the new scrubs and the albinos!

[Tommytradix]

Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis and it look's like you have a new strain of albino on your hands! That's awesome! Congrats on the little scrubs! Now if you could get some nice canadian flames and orange easterns to breed to some of them! Lol!
easy on the mixing lol produce a nice number of regular albinos then play with genes lol if its a new strain i wouldnt go mixing it up right away imo

[Jeff B]

congrats on the babies. I would agree with Tommy, keep them pure for a generation or two to see how true the look breeds. Hard to tell from photos if it is T+ or T- or something new. Looks like they probably are T.sirtalis sirtalis parents. Pretty exiting! Congrats

[Jeff B]

are you located in the southern part of Ontario? my first thought was Butlers garter when I saw them, but I do not have any personal experience with them and didn't know if they ranged that far north, but I googled and butlers do extend into southern Ontario.
Anyone on the forum ever kept Butlers garter?

[Tommytradix]

anthony has field experience he in hamilton ontario his name on here is too random to remember lol it starts with z

[Albert Clark]

Remember also, these are w/c and they come with and pose their own set of risks for health issues. Fantastic looking animals and congrats on the clutch!

[Intra]

I caught these two snakes in Waterloo, Ontario.

What does T+ and T- mean exactly? I never had any intentions of breeding snakes lol, it just happened

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Oh i agree, keep the f1 and maybe even the f2's pure! That was meant for in the future.
easy on the mixing lol produce a nice number of regular albinos then play with genes lol if its a new strain i wouldnt go mixing it up right away imo

[Tommytradix]

I caught these two snakes in Waterloo, Ontario.

What does T+ and T- mean exactly? I never had any intentions of breeding snakes lol, it just happened
well you kinda gotta breed now lol or sell to someone who will to keep the line going. i think anthony would be interested in these if you are going to sell them

[BLUESIRTALIS]

IT MEANS TYROSINASE POSITIVE OR TYROSINASE NEGATIVE.( Tyrosinase is an oxidase (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxidase) that is the rate-limiting (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rate-determining_step) enzyme (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enzyme) for controlling the production of melanin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanin). It is mainly involved in two distinct reactions of melanin synthesis; firstly, the hydroxylation of a monophenol and secondly, the conversion of an o-diphenol to the corresponding o-quinone. o-Quinone undergoes several reactions to eventually form melanin.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrosinase#cite_note-pmid21144881-1) Tyrosinase is a copper (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper)-containing enzyme present in plant and animal tissues that catalyzes the production of melanin and other pigments from tyrosine by oxidation, as in the blackening of a peeled or sliced potato (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potato) exposed to air.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrosinase#cite_note-2) It is found inside melanosomes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanosome) which are synthesised in the skin melanocytes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanocyte). In humans, the tyrosinase enzyme is encoded by the TYR gene (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene). A T+ ALBINO (AKA CARAMEL ALBINO) WOULD BE DARKER IN COLOR BECAUSE THE TYROSINASE IS STILL PRESENT. THE T- ALBINO WOULD BE LIGHTER IN COLOR AS YOUR CLASSIC ALBINO BECAUSE THE TYROSINASE IS ABSENT. HOPE THIS MAKES SENSE.
I caught these two snakes in Waterloo, Ontario.)

What does T+ and T- mean exactly? I never had any intentions of breeding snakes lol, it just happened

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Could be, but i agree they look like easterns! Maybe peck will chime in on his opinion! I think he has worked with some butlers.
are you located in the southern part of ontario? My first thought was butlers garter when i saw them, but i do not have any personal experience with them and didn't know if they ranged that far north, but i googled and butlers do extend into southern ontario.
Anyone on the forum ever kept butlers garter?

[BUSHSNAKE]

Here are some pictures
12242122431224412245
DAM I love those!!

[BUSHSNAKE]

Could be, but i agree they look like easterns! Maybe peck will chime in on his opinion! I think he has worked with some butlers.
Those don't look like butleri at all, classic sirtalis sirtalis!!

[Tommytradix]

Those don't look like butleri at all, classic sirtalis sirtalis!!
i agree sirtalis sirtalis heres one i relocated last year


12275

[CoffeeBlack]

I don't post much and mostly lurk but this whole thread has been exciting and funny and informative and i just wanted you all to know that, haha. Congrats on the babies!

[Tommytradix]

I don't post much and mostly lurk but this whole thread has been exciting and funny and informative and i just wanted you all to know that, haha. Congrats on the babies!
stop lurking n start posting lol

[Intra]

Update: Its been two weeks now. All but 3 having been eating a mixture of pinky and worm pieces. Only one of the three picky eaters is noticeably smaller, the other two look healthy (so maybe they ate once before). Unfortunately one of these 3 is an albino. I put these 3 in a separate tank to ensure they would have a fair chance at the food. Tonight I placed some live fish in a shallow dish, but no luck yet.

Also, I have not seen any of them shed. Makes me think they shed right after birth, but I never saw the sheds.

[Tommytradix]

Update: Its been two weeks now. All but 3 having been eating a mixture of pinky and worm pieces. Only one of the three picky eaters is noticeably smaller, the other two look healthy (so maybe they ate once before). Unfortunately one of these 3 is an albino. I put these 3 in a separate tank to ensure they would have a fair chance at the food. Tonight I placed some live fish in a shallow dish, but no luck yet.

Also, I have not seen any of them shed. Makes me think they shed right after birth, but I never saw the sheds.
yes their first shed is immidiately afer being born and should shed in 2-3 weeks after being born. did you try offering salmon or tilapia?

[guidofatherof5]

Update: Its been two weeks now. All but 3 having been eating a mixture of pinky and worm pieces. Only one of the three picky eaters is noticeably smaller, the other two look healthy (so maybe they ate once before). Unfortunately one of these 3 is an albino. I put these 3 in a separate tank to ensure they would have a fair chance at the food. Tonight I placed some live fish in a shallow dish, but no luck yet.

Also, I have not seen any of them shed. Makes me think they shed right after birth, but I never saw the sheds.

They shed right after birth and that shed material is more like ash compared to the rest of the sheds they will have in life.

[Dan72]

Thanks for the update! Keep working, babies are a handful, but I love it! Keep asking questions when you have them anyone on here is happy to help. We would do the same for any litter of scrubs, but new WC albino genes tend to make everyone extra attentive. ;)

[Albert Clark]

It also sounds that those two parents were left there inside a backpack by a po who wanted someone to find them. The other possibility, imo, is that someone lost their backpack while transporting the garters. It just seems to defy the odds that two w/c easterns, both het for albino, and opposite sexes would wind up inside a backpack together in a park??????? IDK. Congrats to Intra. :)

[Intra]

Well I had 12 live fish in the enclosure with the 3 picky eaters, and the next day there were only 2 fish left, so one of them ate.

I tried feeding them cut up worms tonight. To my surprise, two of them ate (even the little runt). However, the albino was not interested even after several attempts of waving the food in his face. Then things got worse. As I was feeding the other enclosure of 10 snakes, I looked over and saw the albino opening his mouth. He threw up this grey paste. He either ate when I was not looking, or this was old food. What does it mean? Is he sick?!

[guidofatherof5]

Hard to tell what it is. It certainly is something to keep and eye on. Some neonates develop slower then others. The digestive tract is one of those developing areas. Just my opinion.

[Intra]

Hey everyone. I decided to give away most of my baby garter snakes (will be keeping one albino and one regular). I posted an ad and got a surprising number of offers. The people who responded all seem to have experience with snakes or reptiles, so they are going to good homes. Thanks again for the help, everyone here really helped me with this new challenge :)

[Dan72]

Good luck with keepers and keep us updated. Pics from time to time seem to be a hit around here as well. ;)

[Intra]

Yesterday I checked the parents cage, and found these three things that I thought were pieces of poop floating in the water dish. It smelt absolutely horrible. Upon closer inspection, they looked like snake fetuses. I took some pictures if you guys really want to see them. I think you guys call them 'slugs'. Its been 5 weeks since these babies were born, is it normal for slugs to appear after such a long period of time?

[guidofatherof5]

No reason why it can't happen. I've had snakes push slugs out weeks after birthing live garters.

[Intra]

Hey everyone,

Its been a while since I posted, but I thought I'd update everyone due to recent developments.

Overall, I gave away 9 of the babies and my girlfriend kept 3. Originally she only wanted two, but one escaped (was missing for a month or so) and when we found it again she decided to keep it as well. These 3 are doing very well, eating cut up pinky pieces and continuing to grow. I'll get some pics of them later.

About two weeks ago (April 26), my female gave birth again. I was caught off guard since the last birth was in July, so it hasn't even been a year. This time there were 30 babies, but 2 did not make it :( There are 5 albinos this time (slightly better odds lol). Here are some pics of them in a temporary container while I was cleaning their enclosure.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13386&stc=1http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13387&stc=1http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13388&stc=1http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13389&stc=1

The new babies are doing well. Most of them have been eating cut up worms (except for 4 of them). I'm going to post another ad, but this time I think I'll make a bit of money back lol. Maybe $10 per snake, $25 for an albino. Its definitely more of a challenge making sure all 28 are eating and doing well.

[Zdravko092368]

I have been looking for someone with albino easterns in Canada, I am very interested. I have melanistics and need albinos for them to make snows.

[Zdravko092368]

They are beautiful babies btw!

[Zdravko092368]

I would be interested in 5 albinos and 5 normals if you don't plan on keeping any albinos.

[Dan72]

Congrats on the litter. You should get someone to reach out to you soon would be my guess :)
keep an eye out for Anthony I know he will be interested. Good guy.

[Zdravko092368]

Congrats on the litter. You should get someone to reach out to you soon would be my guess :)
keep an eye out for Anthony I know he will be interested. Good guy.


Thanks for informing me about the thread, it's been almost two years I have looked for albino eastern in Canada never had any luck and missed this last year.

Easterns are my favourite garter. :)

[Eddie]

Congrats!!

[Intra]

I would like to keep at least one albino. I posted an ad and have received interest in the albinos. PM me and maybe we can arrange something.

[Zdravko092368]

I would like to keep at least one albino. I posted an ad and have received interest in the albinos. PM me and maybe we can arrange something.

PMd texted and email'd lol

[Zdravko092368]

I picked up the whole litter... I now have 25 scrubs to care for they are awesome and all but two ate for me right away.

[Intra]

I hope you miscounted and have 26, cause I only have 2 with me lol

[Zdravko092368]

Yes I have 26 lol.

[Intra]

Here are some pictures of the 11 month old albino from the first clutch. He/she is a quirky snake, many times I will find him/her lying and crawling upside down

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13442&stc=1http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13443&stc=1http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=13444&stc=1

[Albert Clark]

Very nice update! The little yearling looks healthy and active. Grats.

[Intra]

Hey everyone,

Well, my girl gave birth for the third time on November 8. This time there were 45 babies (the number keeps on getting bigger lol). 12 albinos and 33 normals, 2 did not make it again.

14288142891429014291

I've already sold a few, but I'm worried its too many this time. If anyone in the GTA is interested, shoot me a PM or post in this thread.

[Zdravko092368]

Hey everyone,

Well, my girl gave birth for the third time on November 8. This time there were 45 babies (the number keeps on getting bigger lol). 12 albinos and 33 normals, 2 did not make it again.

14288142891429014291

I've already sold a few, but I'm worried its too many this time. If anyone in the GTA is interested, shoot me a PM or post in this thread.

Personally I would seperate them, giving birth three times in just over a year is really rough on a female.

[Zdravko092368]

I would take some again, all the ones you gave me before are still doing great. I just don't know when I can get down to Toronto.

[Zdravko092368]

Just PM me your number. I can't find it from before lol

[Albert Clark]

Congrats on the scrubs! But yeah, give them a break from breeding. Both of them .

[Intra]

Most of them have been eating cut up nightcrawlers. However, I still have a few who just don't seem interested. Its easy to spot them, they are much smaller than the ones who have been consistently eating. Any tips to get these guys to start eating?

[guidofatherof5]

Here's what usually works for me.

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[Albert Clark]

Most of them have been eating cut up nightcrawlers. However, I still have a few who just don't seem interested. Its easy to spot them, they are much smaller than the ones who have been consistently eating. Any tips to get these guys to start eating?. Another strategy is to put the cut up nightcrawlers mixed with cut up f/t silversides (smelt) really small pieces into a shallow dish in a enclosure set up specifically for your problem feeders. Keep in mind that a live guppy feeding is certainly more enticing to a problem feeder as Steve has illustrated. The movement in the cut up nightcrawlers will also be a trigger for them to feed.

[Albert Clark]

It's also the scent of the smelt coupled with the wriggling cut nightcrawler that helps the feeding response..Good luck.

[Intra]

Thanks for the tips guys! I used Steve's technique from the video, and it worked. Most of the smaller ones took the fish.

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks for the tips guys! I used Steve's technique from the video, and it worked. Most of the smaller ones took the fish.

Awesome glad it helped. Keep it up and add worm chunks to the fishy water. They will eat the worms thinking it's fish. A great way to get another food source in.

[Tora]

Man, I wish I'd get this lucky lol. I have a new garter hunting spot for this upcoming spring though! I saw several large adult Nerodia, and a couple young garters this past summer, but I wasn't prepared at the time lol.