Need some id

[aaren]

Hi,

Long time since i posted the last time ^^ but i lost all my thamnophis :/ (3 died because of mites, the last one from injuries from the mites )

I've waited a long time to keep those species again because of that.

I acquired on 13th june an adult pair of "thamnophis sauritus sackenii" but the female is very blue so i was thinking of a nitae.

Here are bad pictures from the pair ( they are stressed so have not good photos yet ^^' )

Female :
http://i18.servimg.com/u/f18/15/60/98/85/triphi10.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/view/15609885/1493)

Male :
http://i18.servimg.com/u/f18/15/60/98/85/aton10.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/view/15609885/1494)

Can you help me to identifie those snakes ( if they are not sackenii ) ? =)

Tell me if you need more photos or specific details !

Thanks !

[d_virginiana]

I'm not sure you'd be able to tell the difference from those pics since those subspecies are so similar, but these two links have info on the exact scale/pattern layout of the two species, so they might help you figure out which they are. Color isn't always the best way to identify, since there can be pretty wide color variation even within subspecies.

https://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/herpetology/fl-snakes/list/thamnophis-sauritus-sackenii/

https://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/herpetology/fl-snakes/list/thamnophis-sauritus-nitae/

[aaren]

Thanks for the link, will try to count the scales =)

[snipstedy]

How is that going with the ID? I will be looking to get at least one T.Sauritus Sackenii Do you or anyone know of a source? Thanks in advance.

[aaren]

I think the male is a sackenii, don't know if the female is a nitae or a sackenii, but will trust the seller and keep her as a sackenii

[snipstedy]

Are they rare in your area?Sackenii

[aaren]

I haven't saw them very often for sale (and never saw a nitae ). they are mainly proposed as WC but sometimes they are sauritus sauritus or proximus proximus

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I would say nitae on the female. I've never seen a sackenii with that much color. Nitae are black with blue and look like thinner versions of thamnophis sirtalis similis. Need better pics of the male.
i think the male is a sackenii, don't know if the female is a nitae or a sackenii, but will trust the seller and keep her as a sackenii

[aaren]

Male :

1218412185

Female :

1218612187

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Does the male have blue too? They both might be nitae or the male might be an intergrade.

[aaren]

No he is more brown/green (depend on the light )

[joeysgreen]

Your best clue might be to ask your supplier to help track down specific geographic origin. Without that information you may be limiting your positive ID to species only.

Ian

[aaren]

For him it's both sackenii ( i know he have nitae too because he made nitae x marcianus albino intergrades )

[guidofatherof5]

For him it's both sackenii ( i know he have nitae too because he made nitae x marcianus albino intergrades )

Why in the world would someone do this? With the beautiful variety offered in the Thamnophis genus there is no reason to muddy the gene pool of these snakes. I've always said "just because we can do something, doesn't mean we should" It certainly doesn't sound like this was a accidental breeding.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

It's getting worse too as the years go on, look at all the king,rat,corn,gopher, and milk hybrids. Some of them are very interesting looking, but it wasn't necessary.
why in the world would someone do this? With the beautiful variety offered in the thamnophis genus there is no reason to muddy the gene pool of these snakes. I've always said "just because we can do something, doesn't mean we should" it certainly doesn't sound like this was a accidental breeding.

[aaren]

I don't know why he made this breeding :(

[d_virginiana]

I really hate hybrid/integrade breeding for native species (more of an issue in the US than for the OP concerning garters). It's one thing when it muddies the gene pools in the pet trade, it's another when an escape or release could affect a wild gene pool.

I've seen some really lovely looking Elaphe obsoleta quadrivittata/Elaphe obsoleta obsoleta integrades in the wild on the NC coast before, so I can see the allure of it, but it's just not something people should mess around with.

[guidofatherof5]

Would you post a photo so we can do a supralabial scale count and get a look at the lateral scales. Please.

[aaren]

Will try to take this in the week end =)