Feeder Fish without Thiaminase?

[allyneko223]

Okay, I am planning on getting a garter snake in the next month or so.
While they will not be my first garter snake, I only recently learned of thiaminase. Are there any feeder fish I can buy from the pet store that does not contain this chemical? Like pladdies or guppies, anything?
I will be supplementing the snake with other foods as well, but I prefer to feed them fish.

[slipknot711]

u can feed them guppies and mollies etc but gets rather expensive. i started buying frozen fish filets and cutting it into strips. might be a better cheaper alternative?

[d_virginiana]

Couple problems; any live feeder fish you get from a pet store carry a huge risk of parasites and things like guppies should really only be used if you have a baby that won't eat anything else.

Second, an adult garter is way to big to feed guppies. Many petstores sell f/t silversides which are safe. However, many people have had issues feeding fish as a primary source. I wouldn't recommend feeding fish of any sort as a primary feeder. Worms or pinkies are preferable.

[Albert Clark]

Hello and what Lora is saying is absolutely true. However a few of the fish that don't contain thiaminase are bass, cod, flounder, perch and trout. Also tilapia is a common fish offered to garters. Remember that garters need the whole prey including organs to remain healthy. Frozen and fresh fish should not be the staple. Pink mice and pink rats and nightcrawlers are better choices. Ideally the night crawlers and worms should be cut up into small manageable pieces. Frozen/ thawed frog legs can be a nice treat for garters as well. They also may need to be cut up depending on the size of the snake. :) That should read frozen /thawed and fresh fish should not be the staple.

[d_virginiana]

To add onto what Albert said, we have had members in the past who bought safe species of fish from the grocery store to feed and ended up with dead snakes due to a preservative they didn't know was in them. Similarly you have to worry about contamination/pollution in wild caught fish. It's just something you need to be really careful about if you do it.

IMO fish should be an option to have on hand for when you have snakes that are refusing all other foods.
I currently have a tank of feeder guppies in case I end up with any non-eating young ones this year (I had a few feeders left alive after getting my nearly ftt baby eating last year and couldn't bring myself to just flush them. Now I have about fifty).

[joeysgreen]

With live or freshly killed fish thiaminase is not a problem. The above posters have discussed other issues regarding using fish as prey.

[d_virginiana]

Could you please provide your source that says thiaminase is not a problem with live or freshly killed fish?

I just ask because I have read articles about European mustelids that have developed thiaminase related neurological issues from eating wild caught (so obviously fresh-killed) fish. Also, I have also heard that goldfish and rosy-reds should not be fed (even live) due to their production of thiaminase. I don't mean to contradict you, but this seems contrary to the bulk of evidence that I've seen, so I'd be interested in seeing the source/sources.

[allyneko223]

Thanks for the input, everyone. I'll be relying on worms more than fish, but there aren't many bait stores near me (even though I live not even a block away from a lake) and the pet stores tend to run out of worms pretty quickly.
Is there a connection there? I don't know, but fish tend to be in better stock.

[joeysgreen]

I"ll see if I can dig something up Lora. I recently discussed this with the vet at the Tulsa zoo and with my vet at OSU regarding another recent thread on the topic. My literature search was less than rewarding with nothing very specific to the topic. Below is my understanding of the topic and it by all means could be flawed.

Thiamine of course is the water soluble Vitamin B1. Thiaminase is an intracellular enzyme. It is how a cell breaks down and utilizes thiamine (upon further study it actually is used to break up thiamin in order to use it's components... for what, I don't yet know). When you freeze the fish, as with any freeze intolerant animal (some frogs, hatchling turtles and invertebrates being the exception), the water in the tissue expands and breaks open the cells. This releases the thiaminase to break down the extracellular thiamin (there are 3 fluid compartments in animals, intracellular, extracellular and vascular). So this means that any frozen fish is a problem. The zoos use a "flash frozen" fish which freezes fast enough and cold enough so that it somehow limits the combination of the thiamin and it's enzyme. They have to thaw it a certain way (either really fast, or really slow I don't remember) and they still supplement with thiamine. Being water soluble it is very difficult to overdose Vitamin B1 because excess is readily excreted in the urine. Vitamin C is another water soluble vitamin if that's more familiar.

So my literature search has found lots of studies that measure thiamine metabolism but I have yet to pinpoint the actual cellular interaction between thiaminase and thiamin, and how that interplays in every day life. I did find that some ferns, a African silk worm and various carp (that would include goldfish, but I can't find a source on it so don't know if it's just regurged material) perhaps have excess thiaminase that would create an imbalance if fed raw. This may give merit to feeding raw goldfish causing thiamine deficiency, but it doesn't give merit to the safety of other frozen fish food, which would still have the problem of cellular distruction and enzyme release.

If I have a bit of free time tomorrow I'll try to search for the pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamics of thiaminase. (where it travels through the body, and how it acts as it passes through the body)

Ian

[d_virginiana]

Interesting. I know the problem with silkworms and thiaminase has come up on some frog forums I'm on. I think the majority of the real worries with thiaminase come from the feeding of live rosy reds or feeder goldfish rather than f/t stuff since safe fish such as tilapia seem to be the more easily and cheaply acquired frozen options. I actually don't think I've ever seen someone asking about a frozen source that isn't on the safelist just because those aren't so common...

I think not much is known about the thiaminase issue, even in regards to feeding what are considered 'dangerous' species. Some people can do it for years and have no problems while others can do it once or twice and begin to see the neurological symptoms of the vitamin deficiency. Scientific debate aside, I probably wouldn't recommend even frozen thiaminase-containing fish as feeders just because there are so many options where we know for certain it isn't a risk.

[guidofatherof5]

With live or freshly killed fish thiaminase is not a problem. The above posters have discussed other issues regarding using fish as prey.


What?

[joeysgreen]

Coincidentally, I found out while researching this topic that thiaminase is used in cancer therapy. Who knew?

This first one is a lame reference for this topic, but mentions that some fish have more thiaminase than others, and that feeding frozen fish of any species is more problematic than raw.
Wilkinson, Stacey Leonatti. "Reptile Wellness Management." Veterinary Clinics of North America: Exotic Animal Practice 18.2 (2015): 281-304.

This reference is an example of a specific fish species that can cause vitamin B1 deficiency when fed to alligators. With reference to wild populations I "assume" they are talking about feeding fresh raw fish and not frozen.
Ross, J. Perran, et al. "Gizzard shad thiaminase activity and its effect on the thiamine status of captive American alligators Alligator mississippiensis." Journal of aquatic animal health 21.4 (2009): 239-248.

This reference states that certain fish, namely those related to herring or smelt (potentially ignoring fish species not used in aquatic bird management) are richer in thiaminases than other species. It also refers, and this perhaps refines my understanding of the issue, is that there are certain bacteria that produce thiaminase (which concurrs with my literature search but I previously thought was an unrelated tangent). How this relates to fish is that fish goes rancid very quickly, and even in the freezer (one paper recommended -18C storage and even then there was progressive increase in thiaminase), thus this bacteria produces thiaminase very quickly. To further the problem, fat soluble vitamins (like vitamin E) are destroyed very fast as the fish breaks down which adds another nutritional deficiency to the problem.

Pokras, Mark A. "Captive management of aquatic birds." AAV Today (1988): 24-33.

...

So in the end, I'll be completely up front and say that I ignored one issue by attending another. Some fish do have enough thiamine to cause problems. Are rosy red minnows and goldfish these species? Likely... I've seen more information on the goldfish than the minnows but none that has come from the primary literature.

My original point should not be lost however as it is equally valid. Any fresh fish species is nutritionally superior to frozen fish, and this is regarding thiaminase and other nutritional components. Of course the caveat to that is concerns over parasitism. However knowing that frozen fish is less nutritious should give you the advantage while developing a menu for your pets.

I think that it is important to see that the specifics are unknown and not many people are looking for answers because the problem has been solved. Zoo's supplement thiamine in true piscivorous species, garter snake keepers feed a variety of prey to counterbalance any deficiencies of any one item. So nothing ground-breaking here, but a lot of food for thought :)

[d_virginiana]

I think it's worth mentioning that supplementation in piscivorous species (such as orcas) is only a bandaid, and that a deficient diet composed solely of frozen fish will eventually take its toll, leading to a lot of early and unexplained deaths as well as other indicators of poor health (in this case collapsed dorsal fins are probably the most obvious).

This is very unscientific, but I tell people to avoid the colors red and yellow (and any species that can easily produce those colors) if they aren't sure and absolutely have to use something 'unorthodox' as a food item. This includes all carp species like goldfish and rosy reds. It's actually the reason I initially told someone to stay away from silk worms for frogs, and only afterwards did I do some research and find out that they actually contain thiaminase.

I don't remember for sure, but didn't someone on here run into fresh fish that had been treated with a preservative to give it a longer shelf-life that ended up being fatal? Or was that frozen stuff? Hopefully someone who remembers that thread will read this.

[Herp Derp]

I do not have any snakes, but I would suggest using convict cichlids as a food source. They breed fairly often(takes less than a yr for babies to breed themselves), depending on tank size, temp, water quality etc. They are interesting to watch as they actually take care of their babies(break up food and spit it out for them, keep the babies close together and later on herd them around the tank). DO not have any other fish in the tank with them as they will defend and kill most fish in the tank when the eggs have been fertilized. they are pretty hardy fish too so no heater is required(room temp will be fine). Female convict will have a red/pink hue on her belly the males will tend to be bigger and have longer fins. A simple 20g(bigger is always better though) would be good for breeding with a 5" ceramic pot . Do some research first on cycling an aquarium as well. Thiaminase is usually talked a lot more in the aquarists forums for larger predatory fish.

[d_virginiana]

I really don't mean to be as contradictory as I seem to be being in this thread. Maybe I shouldn't visit forums while putting out job applications; I think it makes me a bit meaner lol.

But as I see it the cichlids have quite a few strikes against them; they can't be housed together in large numbers in a small space as I imagine one breeding pair would attack another if they couldn't stake out individual territories and fry would be too small to feed off until they got older; also they require tank parameters that may be simple for an aquarist but are complicated for someone looking for an easy feeder (as compared to something like guppies that can basically thrive in a still tank of tap water).

Additionally we don't know anything about their thiaminase content other than speculation. They don't share a natural range with garters so we have no evidence from the wild of how they'll affect them as a feeder, and they aren't commonly used feeders, so we don't have anecdotal evidence from other keepers either. Several times I've gotten the question of whether it's okay to feed small species of African frog that aren't known to be toxic, and I always caution against it because of those very reasons (for example just offering prey that had been touched and then refused by one of my South American frogs that are considered non-toxic was enough to cause a regurge for one of my garters).

It sounds like these cichlids would be a really interesting species to keep, but IMO too much trouble and too much we don't know about them to recommend as feeders when there are cheap, easy to find, safe alternatives. You're probably correct and they'd be perfectly safe to feed, but we just don't have any evidence for it either way.

[joeysgreen]

I'd have to agree with Lora. Herp Derp, I've bred cichlids before and it was fun, but another drawback is they simply don't produce enough to make a valid feeder colony. The amount of pairs you'd have to have to keep just a few snakes happy would be a lot of work. Just as CB wood frogs would be the perfect feeder, breeding them and raising all those tadpoles to meal size would be an absolute tonne of work.

To add to my previous posts, I do admit to cringing when people say they feed primarily frozen fish; even moreso when it's not whole-body fish. Your snakes may be living, but you're likely walking a very fine line with a nutritionally related disorder.

Lora, I think we can agree that there's a lot more wrong with captive orca's than nutrition. They are perfect example of a species that shouldn't be kept in captivity. With other piscivorous species supplementation is much more successful; be it they supplement more than just Vitamin B1.

[edit] I think the other toxic thread was BlueSirtalis that had the problem. This can be a worry for anything bought that's intended for human consumption. So often there are salts and misc. preservatives and flavors added that we don't see or think about.

Ian

[d_virginiana]

Oh, I agree there is much more than diet wrong with captive orcas. You'll never catch me attending SeaWorld. I just recalled that in Blackfish the diet was cited as being wildly insufficient.

When I got my first garter (now 15 years old) I was 12 and didn't even have access to the internet, so he was fed a diet of primarily fish. Luckily he refused to touch rosy reds and ate minnows. But that and the occasional nightcrawler was all he ate until he was probably about ten years old (I think around the time I found this forum). I often wonder if that contributed to his going blind, or if that's just the result of extreme old age as he's otherwise quite healthy. I know that in turtles vitamin deficiencies can cause problems with eyesight, so I imagine it could be true for snakes as well.

I have to say I think having a little guppy colony is a great idea. Not for adults of course, but it can be a real lifesaver for non-eating scrubs. I put literally zero effort into them other than sprinkling food in and they are thriving.

I've never liked the idea of feeding meat intended for human consumption for that exact reason. I know some people like to be more adventurous in their feeder choices in the name of variety, but I prefer to stick to the most basic diet for all my herps that can supply all their nutritional needs because I'm afraid of running into some unforeseen problem with a feeder that appeared safe.

[Herp Derp]

its all understandable, breeding, culturing your own food for pets takes a lot of extra work. I was just giving the O.P. something to think about.
Even fish need a variety of diet rather than just one simple brand of fish flake. Its all relative to the owner, some owners make sure the food they feed their pets are well taken care of as well(some people gut load crickets and some people dont).
What I think is most important is a varied diet.

[Albert Clark]

Thanks for that information. Well taken.

[d_virginiana]

Just tossing this out there, but since we're talking about raising food, nightcrawlers are by far the easiest and cheapest food to raise yourself. Plus you don't have any of the potential health concerns that come with fish.

[AntTheDestroyer]

Isn't it true that earthworms are lacking in some important nutrients, especially calcium. For baby snakes with growing bones I would imagine they need a good amount of this nutrient.

[d_virginiana]

Unless you feed solely earthworms this is not a problem, and it can be easily remedied by adding a typical reptile calcium powder or shaved cuttlebone to the worm pieces.

[AntTheDestroyer]

But you don't recommend feeding fish? So you only recommend feeding a mixture of earthworms and mice?

[guidofatherof5]

Isn't it true that earthworms are lacking in some important nutrients, especially calcium. For baby snakes with growing bones I would imagine they need a good amount of this nutrient.

This can depend on what they were fed or the soil they came from. Many people dip the worm tail in a calcium supplement before feeding.

[joeysgreen]

Ant, I recommend feeding all of the above. Garter snakes are generalist feeders and this variety counter balances any nutritional deficit each individual item may have.

Ian

[d_virginiana]

We generally caution against fish because it is so easy to encounter potentially fatal substances in them that cause problems either quickly or over the long-term. I feed mine primarily mice and they do fine. They get the occasional worm. I know some people on here feed primarily worms.

Variety is good, but a diet made up solely of mice does contain all the nutrients the snakes need. I have an old one who gets nothing but mice due to his being a finicky eater and me needing to cram as much nutrition into him as possible when he'll take food.

[AntTheDestroyer]

My new snake shows no interest in earthworms or mice. He also wont take guppies, but had no problem taking a rosy red. Getting him to eat was quite a relief to me because he is so small. I think the plan now is to scent mice with rosy reds until I can get him to switch over. After that I may still supplement with a rosy red every now and again just to get some variety.

[d_virginiana]

Don't use rosy reds. If he likes fish, buy a pack of frozen silversides at your local pet store or even go to a bait shop and buy silver-colored minnows. Rosy reds are known to contain a deadly compound called thiaminase (discussed earlier in this thread). Never feed a rosy red in anything but a survival situation where your snake is about to starve and will take nothing else. Don't use one just for the sake of variety.

[joeysgreen]

Nutritional deficiencies don't work like that. Thiaminase is not toxic or deadly. It only breaks down vitamin B. So long as there is an appropriate balance, there is no problem with thiaminase. Your snake isn't going to get sick or die because you feed rosy red minnows, so long as it gets enough vitamin B elsewhere in the diet to balance it out. And as discussed, feeding frozen fish is also problematic in regards to thiaminase for two reasons. Freezing ruptures the cells, releasing the enzyme, and the storage of dead fish allows bacteria to produce additional thiaminase. Further, nutritional deficiencies are also non-acute. If the only thing that you can get your snake to eat is rosy red's, then it's better then it not eating. Do what you can to move onto a more balanced diet as soon as you can. If you are worried that you are taking to long with this transition, then you can supplement with adding vitamin B into the diet.

Ian

[AntTheDestroyer]

As I said he will not eat just any fish. I bought him from a well known breeder who fed him rosy reds up until this point. As this point I am more concerned with getting him switched over to mice, then trying to find what other types of fish he will eat. Feeding him mice makes the thiaminase a null point as it does not stay long in the body after ingested and he has another source of B1. Also all minnows are in the family Cyprinidae so I doubt the "silver ones" are much different then rosy reds. Thanks for the input Ian.

[d_virginiana]

As a biologist, I'm well aware that thiaminase isn't a toxin and how nutritional deficiencies work.

However, I'm trying to give practical advice, not debate the molecular workings of thiaminase. The fact is we've had members on here with snakes experiencing severe neurological symptoms after only a few feedings of thiaminase-containing species. Do we know for sure that this was due to thiaminase? No. Were these snakes experiencing known symptoms of B12 deficiency after only a few feedings of a thiaminase-rich species? Yes.
In seeing over four years' worth of posts about potential thiaminase-related symptoms and deaths it really seems that it affects different individuals differently, and seems to have the greatest affect on immature animals. Some people can feed thiaminase-containing species for years with no problems. IMO it is not worth the risk and should not be done just for variety's sake.

As I said, rosy reds are certainly better than the animal starving, but IMO it's plain irresponsible to recommend feeding a species known to contain high levels of thiaminase so long as the rest of the diet contains B12, and even moreso to just recommend that a typical hobbyist try to use a B12 supplement as most people have no way of measuring the vitamin content of their snakes' food or knowing what the appropriate dosage would be. You can overdose on B12, and a B12 shot is a risky procedure for deficient garters even when administered by a vet due to their small size. Also, I'm unaware of any B12 supplement marketed for reptiles or amphibians that is available without a prescription.

Also, I haven't had time to read the papers you linked to earlier, but do they provide comparisons in thiaminase levels between simple cell breakdown due to freezing and what is present in species such as goldfish that produce high levels of it naturally? I would wonder if a low-thiaminase content species would have a comparable amount after freezing to a high-thiaminase content species prior to freezing. My gut feeling is that the content would still be lower in the frozen 'safe species'.

The point here isn't whether or not it would be hypothetically okay for the snake's diet to include rosy reds due to their thiaminase content, but to recommend the safest possible diet to another keeper.

[d_virginiana]

Also all minnows are in the family Cyprinidae so I doubt the "silver ones" are much different then rosy reds. Thanks for the input Ian.

Actually, yellow color has been shown to be linked to thiamine degradation (and by association, thiaminase) in wild fish eggs and fry, and is common in species high in thiaminase. Yes, all members of the carp family can produce thiaminase, but my recommendation to try a silver versus yellow colored species was based off of this, not just pulled out of my rear. If you want the source, I'll provide it later as I don't feel like digging for it right now.
Getting him to take other species of fish within the same family may also make him more willing to transition to new foods including mice.

[joeysgreen]

Lora, then stick to practical advice and not scare tactics. Calling it toxic IMO is as far out as how you think my suggestion of using rosy red's is. If people are smart enough to follow this crazy thread, they are smart enough to make sensible choices with the information provided.

Vitamin B is water soluble so is very unlikely to be overdosed. Nonetheless if someone were to try supplementing and had questions, I'm sure they'd ask; for instance, injecting it into the prey item instead of the snake seems a little safer and more practical.

I do know and respect that you are a biologist; you have mentioned it before. A botanist if I recall correctly?

Ian

[d_virginiana]

Please, show me where I called thiaminase toxic? I called it deadly. Which, if you use the search function, you will see I have ample anecdotal evidence to back up. That isn't a scare tactic, it's a recommendation not to feed something we know can be deadly. I said to avoid rosy reds except as a last resort feeder. That is practical advice. There is a reason we have a 'safe fish' list on this site, and refer people to it when they are looking for feeders rather than telling them to try and balance an unsafe food source with supplements and other foods.

Advising that someone feed a diet so deficient in B12 that it needs to be supplemented with a product that isn't even on the market for reptiles is not practical advice. And if they did ask about how to supplement B12, are you a vet that can tell them the exact amount they should be injecting into a young snake's food to keep it healthy and not overdose? Are you seriously recommending that someone go to a vet, get prescription B12 to inject into feeders, and then try to get the exact amount correct for a very small snake rather than just feeding a known safe species?

[joeysgreen]

No, I recommended that he can safely use rosy reds, which are better then it not eating at all, until he can switch it to something else. If this process takes so long that the owner is concerned about vitamin deficiency, then supplementing is an option. That would be a bridge to be crossed if we get to it.

Ian

[d_virginiana]

Or instead of just trying guppies (which are too small for most adult garters to view as a serious food item) and rosy reds, he could try any species of fish on the safelist. Most garters that will take rosy reds will take other types of whole fish, but trying just guppies and rosy reds is not enough to say 'this snake will only eat rosy reds' IMO.

[guidofatherof5]

I've never seen a species specific fish eating Thamnophis.
If it flips and flops it's Gone!

[AntTheDestroyer]

I guess I got a picky one, he won't even look twice at a guppy, earthworm, or split pinky. I tried to tong feed him the guppy and he was afraid so I put it on a plate, left him all day, and nothing. I don't see the difference in supplementing calcium and b1. Unless you have actual proof that the silver minnows are in fact better, then it might be unwise to suggest one over the other. Not to mention all the shops that sell feeders that I have been to so far only sell guppies, goldfish, or rosies. Denver does not have many bait shops as there is not a lot of water. What other easily available, affordable species do you suggest I try and where is this safe list? Keep in mind that if it does not eat them I wasted a life. I already feel bad enough about the guppies.

[AntTheDestroyer]

Also I would like to be able to breed them in a five gallon tank I already have set up. If they are nice to look at then all the better.

[d_virginiana]

I don't have concrete proof that silver minnows are better than species that produce red/yellow pigment other than thiaminase being associated with the ability to produce those colors (this can be seen in fish, but also species such as silkworms). I do have the anecdotal evidence of having fed my 15 year old garter (average lifespan is somewhere around 8 to 10) nothing but silver minnows for the first ten years of his life with no issues. I stopped once I found this site and realized it was potentially dangerous, but if given the choice between a species of cyprinid that cannot produce red/yellow pigment and one that can, I would choose the one that does not. You are right though, it's difficult to find anything that isn't a goldfish or rosy red in pet stores.

Once they get any size on them at all most garters won't look twice at a guppy. They're just too small for them to really care about. Have you tried silversides? Despite what was said earlier about freezing increasing thiaminase content in cells, there is no scientific or anecdotal evidence showing that this is enough to make f/t silversides a harmful feeder source for snakes, and f/t silversides are generally considered to be a thiaminase-safe feeder. I am not aware of a single thread on this forum where people reported seeing symptoms of B12 deficiency after feeding f/t silversides, and I think it's kind of illogical to recommend live species we KNOW contain thiaminase over a frozen species that does not because of one study that doesn't even put the thiaminase levels in absolute terms.
There have been problems with both fresh and frozen fish from pet and grocery stores that seem to be related to some sort of toxic contamination (that's as concrete of a reason as we can really gather from the info in those threads). These issues are pretty rare, but I'd still try scenting mice to get them used to eating other foods as soon as possible.

Finally, supplementing B12 is different than just supplementing calcium. Calcium substitutes developed for reptiles are available at almost every pet store. I'm unaware of any way of supplementing B12 other than a vet-prescribed injection (someone correct me if I'm wrong) which is usually only done if the animal is already showing neurological symptoms, and can be risky for something as small as a garter.

Also, you can definitely breed guppies in a five gallon tank. Useless as feeders unless you have babies, but neat little animals to have around. I started out with about five guppies I couldn't bear to just flush down the toilet left over after I got two of my babies eating last year, and now I have about fifty.

[d_virginiana]

If you do try the f/t silversides, make sure to try ones that the heads haven't broken off of. This sounds bizarre, but I have two snakes that absolutely will not touch a feeder (mouse or fish) if they can't find the head. It's like it just blows their little minds or something and they don't recognize it as food.

EDIT: Safe fish list is about halfway down the caresheet

http://www.thamnophis.com/index.php?page=caresheet

[AntTheDestroyer]

Vitamin B12 is cobalamin. Thiamin is vitamin B1. You can buy a B1 tablets and extract online or most health food stores. As previously stated it is water soluble so would be nearly impossible to overdose as long as you provide adequate water.

[d_virginiana]

Sorry, typo. I've been reading about B12 supplements for vegans and got a bit muddled.
Are these products produced for reptiles or humans? I know some iguana keepers use human B1 supplements sometimes but garters are notoriously sensitive to preservatives and other things that are harmless to people and larger animals. It'd be easier to just try a thiaminase-free fish (have you tried one of those yet, other than guppies?) or work on scenting mice. He's probably not going to drop dead overnight from eating rosy reds, it'd be easier to work on getting him on a safer food source than to worry about supplementing with human B1 products. I have literally never heard of anyone doing that for garters (or any snake actually).

[guidofatherof5]

Take the one he will eat. Crush it with a little water then smear it all over the food you want him to take. Give that a try.

[AntTheDestroyer]

I think he is still a little too small for a silverside. They are for humans but I would assume you could find a organic source. I really would like to be able to have a live fish colony for him. Are guppies the only choice I have? Thanks for the advice Guido, don't worry I am allowed to say it. I was wondering how I should go about converting him to pinkies.

[d_virginiana]

There's really not much else between guppies and rosies size-wise. You could always try feeding him parts of silverside; many fish eaters will easily take appropriately sized strips of fish. If he won't, keep working on scenting the things you want him to eat.
Some snakes can eat rosies or goldfish for years before they develop symptoms of B1 deficiency. You've got time to switch him over without worrying about supplementing B1 IMO.

I realize my earlier posts may have made thiaminase sound more menacing than it really is (though we have occasionally seen symptoms of B1 deficiency over a short period). Very reputable breeders often use things like rosies or other 'unsafe' fish to get babies started eating with no problem. I just wanted to make the point that it shouldn't be a lifelong food source and that the potential for negative outcomes was there.

[AntTheDestroyer]

If there was one thing I took from your posts it is that it is something I should be concerned about in the long term, thank you.

[AntTheDestroyer]

Just wanted to give an update on my snake, Draco. First I wanted to thank everyone for all the input you fine folks gave. Especially Guido for the great idea of how to get him to take pinkies. He took his first pinky today on the first attempt with fish guts. Just one less thing to worry about.

[d_virginiana]

Just wanted to give an update on my snake, Draco. First I wanted to thank everyone for all the input you fine folks gave. Especially Guido for the great idea of how to get him to take pinkies. He took his first pinky today on the first attempt with fish guts. Just one less thing to worry about.

:D

[LeoVi]

Steer clear of catfish and carp for this reason.
but (here was an source) we have next stuff: there is a Catfish that have a thiaminase (Catfish (channel) (Ictalurus laccustris punctatus) ) and don't have a thiaminase (Sea catfish (galeichthys felis) )