Draco Update

[bigsnakegirl78]

I haven't been on here in a long time, and decided maybe I should try to start coming back on here.

I posted my male albino checkered garter here when I first got him, but he's grown up a lot since then. I got him October of 2013, and he was just a tiny little baby then, didn't even register on my scale. Now he's 1'-1.5' long and 23 grams as of today. I'm still wondering if the scale wasn't wrong, or he wasn't empty, though...he only weighed 17 grams last month and has only been putting on 1 gram a month for awhile now.

Here he is 2 months after I got him.
http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p600/dtr_2009_/My%20Snakes/Draco/IMG_0801_zps3753bc5c.jpg (http://s1157.photobucket.com/user/dtr_2009_/media/My%20Snakes/Draco/IMG_0801_zps3753bc5c.jpg.html)

Here he is from a month or two ago.
http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p600/dtr_2009_/My%20Snakes/Draco/IMG_0147_zps888bafb8.jpg (http://s1157.photobucket.com/user/dtr_2009_/media/My%20Snakes/Draco/IMG_0147_zps888bafb8.jpg.html)

He eats mostly well, but since I started offering him bedding deep enough to burrow in, he no longer hunts down his mice and it's easier to spook him off of food.

When do male checkered garters tend stop growing, or slow down growth to barely noticeable levels?

Here a few more of my favorite photos. :)

http://i.imgur.com/tTOPIyK.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/82qNUMw.jpg

Here's a recent one one of him buried under his humid hide.
http://i.imgur.com/7ZzJGZV.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Nice T.marcianus

[bigsnakegirl78]

Thanks! He's a little stinker, though. I suppose that's true for most garters. haha

[bigsnakegirl78]

Well I figured out the discrepancy! Turns out I didn't tare off the lid to the container I had him in. Whoops. He actually weighs 18 grams, so he's gained another gram. :)

The pinkies also barely leave a bulge anymore, so I'm thinking of starting to feed him two pinkies (if he'll eat both) with his next feeding (which I think is tomorrow). I don't think he's ready to move up a whole size, and I've heard there's a risk of impaction feeding haired rodents.

[guidofatherof5]

The impaction worry is a real one. Lost a couple very special snakes due to it.

[d_virginiana]

Agree with Steve. The only one of my snakes that gets anything with hair on it is the python. I just don't think garters are designed to deal with fur.

[bigsnakegirl78]

Alright, good to know! I'l be sure to stick to multiple mice then. I'm thinking in the future I may try to mix fish back into his diet and give him fish every other feeding. I'm just worried that would cause him to go off mice. :/ It took me 3 months to switch him to mice when he first came here, I don't want to do that again. lol

Anyways, as far as feeding him two pinkies, he took both of them with gusto! Laid them out one behind the other, with one close to his head where he was poking it out of the bedding. He pulled himself down into his burrow as I set them in his enclosure, but once I walked away he went for them. I watched from a gap between the stuff we have in front of his tank, so he wouldn't notice me watching him. :P

[Albert Clark]

The impaction worry is a real one. Lost a couple very special snakes due to it. Thank you for that info, I never heard of that in all my years of owning garters. Now that I think back to the inexplicable deaths I've incurred of certain garters here is a new potential cause! I always feed pinks and mice with hair up until now. Wow. :confused:

[Albert Clark]

Hey bigsnakegirl78, snakes have what is known as "indeterminate growth". So they never stop growing but once they reach maturity the growth rate slows down. It slows even more the older they get but never really ceases. Peace. :D

[Zdravko092368]

I always wondered about the exact amount of risk with haired rodents, if you fed them a fuzzy or two(still wet from thawing in water perhaps?) and had them wash it down with worms would that reduce the risk, since the most important thing to prevent impaction is usually good hydration. I understand playing it safe but my female currently could eat 4 pinkies a day if I let her, they are like lil gummy bears to her lol.

[bigsnakegirl78]

Hey bigsnakegirl78, snakes have what is known as "indeterminate growth". So they never stop growing but once they reach maturity the growth rate slows down. It slows even more the older they get but never really ceases. Peace. :D

I'm dubious on that, I've seen no proof of it and my ball python hasn't grown even half an inch in 5-6 years. He's almost 9 years old. Sheds do not necessarily indicate growth, either.

As far as an update, he is now taking both pinks from the tweezers and is now 20-21 grams. No shed yet but I should be expecting one soon. It's so hard to tell when he's in shed, he almost always looks milky in low light and looks normal in the sun, but I've had him shed despite that before.

[Albert Clark]

I went to Wikipedia for some of the documentation to support the "indeterminate growth" phenomena in reptiles. Even though it is not readily apparent in some of our captives it is a factual occurrence. Reptiles do indeed have "indeterminate growth ". It's well documented in other literature also. :)

[drumcrush]

I would not trust Wikipedia. It's still debated, I would not say it's 100% confirmed. I personally do not believe in indeterminate growth.

[ObsidianDragon]

Even Dart's hard to tell when he's in shed, and he's not an albino! Tricky buggers.

[bigsnakegirl78]

Here are some updated pics! He now weighs 26 grams, and the last couple of times I've handled him, he's been calmer in my hand.

1205812059120601206112062

[RicMartin]

Great snake!

[guidofatherof5]

Nice looking albino T. marcianus - Checkered Garter

[joeysgreen]

I missed this note on indeterminate growth in reptiles. It is discussed in Herpetology by Vitt and Caldwell. Reptiles do have indeterminate growth, however it is not as clear cut obvious as one might first think by scanning what that means.

Ian

[bigsnakegirl78]

Are there any peer-reviewed reports of this? I'm not going to trust a book on a scientific point, it's very easy to write misinformation in them.

Unless there have been *many* peer-reviewed studies on the subject, I will remain dubious. A few studies don't always show you if something is true, as they could have been biased, or could have been carried out incorrectly in some other way. Shedding =/= growth, which is the most common reason I hear people say they believe in indeterminate growth. They shed their skin to make room for new, healthy skin cells, just like people.

[joeysgreen]

If you read this book you might change your mind. It is a text book used by those learning how to do the studies that are then peer-reviewed. Peer-reviewed studies are considered primary literature. This type of book is secondary literature, which essentially sums up what is known from the primary literature so you don't have to read the thousands of papers in the hundreds of journals around the world. So it's not just someone writing what they think they know on a topic... it's all directly from the peer-reviewed/primary literature. To visualize this, the bibliography or listing of all the peer-reviewed references used in the book is 98 pages long.

Ian

[Albert Clark]

Are there any peer-reviewed reports of this? I'm not going to trust a book on a scientific point, it's very easy to write misinformation in them.

Unless there have been *many* peer-reviewed studies on the subject, I will remain dubious. A few studies don't always show you if something is true, as they could have been biased, or could have been carried out incorrectly in some other way. Shedding =/= growth, which is the most common reason I hear people say they believe in indeterminate growth. They shed their skin to make room for new, healthy skin cells, just like people.
Mammals and reptiles are two very different species and homo sapiens are even more different. You cant compare the functioning systems of human and reptile. It's apple and oranges comparisons. Figures don't lie but liars figure. No pun intended. The reptiles most likely grow in micromillimeters that is not evidenced by the human eye. Just IMO also. I am in no way trying to win a debate or change anyone's mind.

[bigsnakegirl78]

Draco hit 30 grams a few weeks ago, and with my most recent shipment of rodents I tried bumping him up to rat pinks...I didn't expect all of them pretty much to be mouse hopper size, though. Only a handful were young enough that they're small enough for him to swallow whole. The rest will need to be cut up for him when he runs out of the smaller ones. He's still growing yet, though, so he may end up growing into them eventually.

I've been seeing him out a lot more recently as well, although he's still as jumpy as usual, he doesn't hide at every movement, just if someone moves too fast. He's also been swimming in his water dish lately, so I may go ahead and get him a larger bowl to give him some more room to swim.

1226212263122641226512266

[guidofatherof5]

Draco is looking good.

[Albert Clark]

I have a yearling albino checkered female beauty if you're interested? You can pm me if you like and I can give you the details.

[bigsnakegirl78]

I have a yearling albino checkered female beauty if you're interested? You can pm me if you like and I can give you the details.

I sent you one. :)