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TheIconGuy
02-01-2015, 05:46 PM
My Oregon red spotted had been acting odd after regurgitating some silverside.

He had gone through a shed a few days before when I fed him on Wednesday. He ate one more silver-side than he usually would and started acting weirdly (moving his head around oddly). I put him back in his tank assuming he had eaten to much and would throw up. When I checked on him 20 minutes later I found all of the silver side on top of one of his hides. He was fairly normal after that. On Friday I noticed that he was moving slowly and mostly sitting in the same place for hours. He also wouldn't bother to run away from me if a put my hand near him. After that, I cleaned out his cage and put him on paper towel so I could keep track of things better. Sunday morning he seemed the same, but an hour or so ago I woke up to him thrashing around. He stopped after winding up behind his water bowl. If I pick him up now he wont move his front half but will wrap his tail around my fingers.

Could it be a thiamine deficiency?

guidofatherof5
02-02-2015, 11:51 AM
Sounds like it could be a B1 deficiency. Needs a vet. visit.

d_virginiana
02-02-2015, 07:59 PM
Hopefully this is something that can be treated! Good luck :( (Seconding vet visit)

TheIconGuy
02-03-2015, 03:53 AM
I was hoping he would make until I could take him to my vet Monday, but he passed around 11pm Sunday night. Would a vet be able to tell me what happened?

Also, if it was a B1 deficiency, how often should I supplement if I'm feeding whole fish?

BLUESIRTALIS
02-03-2015, 05:13 AM
So sorry for your loss! I personally don't think it's a good idea to use fish as a staple, but i know some do. If your gonna use fish i think you should vary the diet and throw in some nightcrawlers and mice as well and maybe supplement every once in awhile. Just my opinion! In the wild garters will eat fish, amphibians, worms, some slugs, and have been known to eat baby birds, and mice so even they keep a varied diet for the most part in the wild. Now don't get me wrong they are opportunistic feeders and may feed heavy on a certain prey that is more abundant in the wild, but it's still better to vary the diet when using fish. It does sound like b1 deficiency though. Just remember that most fish are also contaminated with heavy metals and at high levels can be dangerous. I feed mostly hairless mice with some nightcrawlers and frozen thawed fish thrown in as a treat. This is just my opinion and hope it can help someone in the near future. Sorry again for your loss!

chris-uk
02-03-2015, 07:07 AM
I wouldn't necessarily jump on thiaminase deficiency as a culprit. It could also be an acute infection, what you described and the rapid deterioration is very similar to the garter I lost to septicaemia last year (I had a PM done on her so I'm certain of the cause of death).

A PM done quickly (by a suitably qualified vet) is the only way to know for sure.

guidofatherof5
02-03-2015, 04:22 PM
Sorry to hear you garter passed.

guidofatherof5
02-04-2015, 06:42 AM
I received a call last night from my friend Steve Schmidt. He feels the problem this snake had was very possibly due to Sodium Triphosphate poisoning. Here's a link to a thread started by Infernalis calling our attention to this possible problem. Thank you Steve for you input. You may not be a member of the forum but contribute in a great way.
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/9914-note-concerning-pre-packaged-frozen-fish.html

TheIconGuy
02-10-2015, 12:56 PM
Thanks for the condolences. I saw that post when I was researching before getting the snake. Have people been having issues with sodium triphosphate on San Francisco Bay brand Silversides?

guidofatherof5
02-10-2015, 10:01 PM
Thanks for the condolences. I saw that post when I was researching before getting the snake. Have people been having issues with sodium triphosphate on San Francisco Bay brand Silversides?

That I don't know.

joeysgreen
03-03-2015, 11:09 PM
I don't see any literature on Sodium tripolyphosphate toxicity. It might be a bit of a jump to the conclusion, not saying that it's wrong.

It's of course to late if not yet done, but a post-mortem with histology would have been the ideal means of getting answers. If Na TPphosphate was a major concern, target tissues could also be saved for testing; the pathologist would probably have to research methodology on that one.

I like the advice for dietary variety, but also like to suggest live fish if a good captive bred source can be found and/or a relevant deworming protocol being in place. If I'm not mistaken, thiamine deficiency is primarily a concern with frozen fish.

Ian

d_virginiana
03-03-2015, 11:11 PM
If I'm not mistaken, thiaminase content depends on the species of fish not the f/t status.

joeysgreen
03-05-2015, 07:25 PM
I wanted to double check my facts on this. It is rather difficult to cite as there appears to be a lot of handed down information, even in textbooks. Even after I've typed this post and am editing it I came across a paper from 1945 that is rather contradictory to what I'm about to say... I'll continue to look into it further. Nonetheless the primary problem concerning thiaminase is indeed with frozen fish. While I don't disagree there may be species variation, both thiamin and thiaminase seem to be essential components to fish physiology. This means that all fish contain both. Discussion on species variation has actually been more concerning levels of fat's and vitamin E concerns... another topic altogether but variety and ensuring food has no degree of being rancid solves it). It's even in the same paragraph as thiamin deficiency in the first edition of Mader, Reptile Medicine and Surgery.

What happens to cause thiamin deficiency? It has been described as the enzyme thiaminase still being active even with the fish being frozen. Thus while you think you have preserved the animal in the freezer, time sees thiamin levels continue to fall. Degradation of other vitamins (vitamin C is a good example) in frozen foods appears to be well documented. Thiamin deficiency is a commonly discussed problem in wildlife and zoo medicine as there is a plethora of commonly kept piscivorous species like seabirds, marine mammals, of course gartersnakes, other fish etc. Thiamin supplementation is common practice, especially where frozen fish is the only means to sustain a giant appetite (we had a 14lb pelican that ate 50 fish every day, I can't imagine what a 400lb sea lion would eat!). For instances where supplementation isn't desired, fresh, or fresh frozen fish is the best recommendation. Thiamine is rarely supplemented in non-piscivorous species because it is found in adequate quantities in nearly any food both vertebrate and vegetation. So the recommendation for variety is a solid one for species that are less specialized in their feeding behavior.

Ian

BLUESIRTALIS
03-06-2015, 06:36 AM
Years ago when i first got into garters i bought some tilapia and my nice new fat little healthy babies started dropping like flies after eating it all of them died within a day or 2 and i lost around 20 babies so i googled it and found that others were having the same problem and tilapia is low in toxins/heavy metals and is thiaminase free which should be great for garters so the fish shouldn't have been the problem. Then myself and others found out that the only common denominator was that the fish was treated with sodium tripolyphosphate which is a chemical that garters don't have in their diet in the wild and from what i understand high amounts of sodium can cause renal kidney failure. It was my falt for trying to feed them fish from the supermarket, but it was affordable and easy to acces so i thought it would be ok. I only use nightcrawlers and mice parts to start my babies off now and my succes rate is around 95% with babies. I will never use fish in my collection unless it is a last resort or a special treat and then it will be fresh frozen thawed fish.
i don't see any literature on sodium tripolyphosphate toxicity. It might be a bit of a jump to the conclusion, not saying that it's wrong.

It's of course to late if not yet done, but a post-mortem with histology would have been the ideal means of getting answers. If na tpphosphate was a major concern, target tissues could also be saved for testing; the pathologist would probably have to research methodology on that one.

I like the advice for dietary variety, but also like to suggest live fish if a good captive bred source can be found and/or a relevant deworming protocol being in place. If i'm not mistaken, thiamine deficiency is primarily a concern with frozen fish.

Ian

joeysgreen
03-06-2015, 08:30 PM
Blue, that is some really strong anecdotal evidence; unfortunately while it's very much worth the warning flags, it leaves more questions than answers. Many times there is still an unknown link leaving the originally blamed compound being the "red herring". For such topics, it all begins with stories such as yours. Then case studies are written up by veterinarians (or academia should someone be interested in directly pursuing it) as they document suspect/confirmed cases of toxicity. A solid link is not made until toxicology studies are done; if they ever are.

On another note, there is a difference between free and bound sodium. It is quite possible that the tripolyphosphate ion has a much stronger attachment to the sodium ion than say, the chloride found in table salt. I can't say one way or another. Nonetheless, sodium is found everywhere and an essential ion throughout the body. Healthy kidneys excrete sodium without problem. A high sodium diet is generally a concern for long term heart health. With kidneys, it's usually protein to blame. With all this said, you certainly do not want to be feeding fish that has been salted!

snipstedy
03-11-2015, 01:55 PM
Their is something wrong with my T. Sauritus that seems similar. I though that it had ( and still could be the case ) gone in to brumation b/c while I had went out of town for four days their was a record temp drop here. The temp dropped from around 82 degrees all the way down to 20 overnight!!. I had the heat 150 watt heat emitter on all the way as usual and her pad on. Its back warm again and when I got back she was laid out in the middle of the tank with her head near the water dish completely sleeping or whatever. She has a wrinkle look to her then and still does after a few days have went by but since yesterday off and on she has been awake but just laying still. in the middle of the tank (usualy she hides). I touched her a second ago and she moved around to the other side of the tank and seemed stiff in places. When they go into full brumation do they get stiff and wrinkly?

I've only been feeding tilapia of which she just ate some before she's been looking sick. I had bought a fresh new filet that had never been frozen from the super market. every other dish or so I sprinkle the calcium powder on her food. I think its probably best to bring in for a vet visit. I turned up the heat b/c I read somewhere while back that it could be good for the imune system.Any idea as to what it could be? thanks

d_virginiana
03-11-2015, 02:01 PM
Fish isn't the safest food and IMO should only be used as an occasional treat or for snakes that refuse to eat anything else, but if your temps got down to 20 I think that's probably where your problems are coming from in this case, not the fish. You may want to start a new thread about this though so you'll get more views and people will realize it's a new problem.

snipstedy
03-11-2015, 08:06 PM
I think I will soon as I get the chance...I thought it over and after watching her I noticed her to be hanging out near the dish alot which is rare so I started misting her and it seems she is completely dehydrated. I think her other dish was too tall and she didn't know it had water in it so I'v been misting her constantly and she has been drinking every drop. I put a big pool of water and put a hide over the pool (low to surface)so she will spend time at. I also put an extra dish. She's been drinking from the pool and her dish.

She is stiff and sort of locked up through out much of her neck all the way to her tail in various places. She gets around the tank but I don't know how severe the damage is.

d_virginiana
03-11-2015, 09:26 PM
Keep us updated. Also, a picture/video may be helpful.

BLUESIRTALIS
03-12-2015, 05:05 AM
I agree that there is not enough testing to prove anything on this matter and that this just raises more questions and I'm not a scientist/Herpetologist by no means, but I have been keeping and breeding reptiles for over 20 years and I have enough common sense not to feed fish treated with sodium tripolyphosphate after losing all of my babies and witnessing others losing all of their babies even one of the Mods on here lost a lot of babies to this. It's not worth the risk to me to lose all of my precious gems with all the other food sources out here so I try to warn others of this risk to help them from going through what we all went through. ( If you're gonna use fish only use a fresh safe fish, nothing from the supermarket) when I sell babies I recommend others that buy my babies to only use nightcrawlers and mice with maybe a little treat of fresh fish on occasion as I've had my best success that way and I only want the best for my animals. (I would think that vitamin b deficiency would take more than one meal of fish to show up so until further testing is done I would assume that this was due to the sodium tripolyphosphate because it really appeared that they were all poisoned.) Bottom line is for the past few years using nightcrawlers and pinky parts mixed together I've had the best results on raising up my babies and once they are big enough they are fed hairless mice as a staple with a nightcrawler or 2 as a treat on a occasion, with the exception of some fresh fish or guppies as a last resort for none feeders so why change anything when they are doing so good.
Blue, that is some really strong anecdotal evidence; unfortunately while it's very much worth the warning flags, it leaves more questions than answers. Many times there is still an unknown link leaving the originally blamed compound being the "red herring". For such topics, it all begins with stories such as yours. Then case studies are written up by veterinarians (or academia should someone be interested in directly pursuing it) as they document suspect/confirmed cases of toxicity. A solid link is not made until toxicology studies are done; if they ever are.

On another note, there is a difference between free and bound sodium. It is quite possible that the tripolyphosphate ion has a much stronger attachment to the sodium ion than say, the chloride found in table salt. I can't say one way or another. Nonetheless, sodium is found everywhere and an essential ion throughout the body. Healthy kidneys excrete sodium without problem. A high sodium diet is generally a concern for long term heart health. With kidneys, it's usually protein to blame. With all this said, you certainly do not want to be feeding fish that has been salted!

joeysgreen
03-12-2015, 06:51 PM
I agree with you Blue. By all means I'm not trying to downplay your warnings. I don't like the idea of store bought fish, and many are salted... and of course this potential toxicity.

Snipstedy, I think your critter might have a lot of problems. Gartersnakes are not freeze tolerant, so if it got down to 20F there can be a lot of damage done. Further, if you are using a 150 watt ceramic heat emitter then you have an imbalance issue in your tank. It's going to dehydrate the enclosure, likely over heat it etc. A better description on your husbandry might better help us help you.

snipstedy
03-12-2015, 08:10 PM
My tank is a 55 gal. the 150 emitter is off to the right side at the top of the tank and it does dry out the water from the dishes quickly. Last night I rearanged the tank adding a good size dish (small pool) to the left cool side and I put a big log hide over some of the pool where she has relocated to and seems to like. I have a heat bulb I can replace the emitter with. The emitter is the only thing that has seemed to warm the tank as its a very tall enclosure but I can definetly see how it dehydrates everything. I think its highly likely that she has dehydrated being that she drank constantly aas I was misting her.
Are the emitters for desert tanks ?

d_virginiana
03-12-2015, 08:14 PM
To keep humidity up, you can add hides with moist sphagnum moss in them. That works better than most anything I've seen for humidity.

joeysgreen
03-13-2015, 11:18 AM
Yes, multiple humid hides would be appropriate. It doesn't matter if it's a CHE or a light bulb, it's the amount of wattage that dries out the enclosure. I didn't realize your enclosure is 55 gallons, so what you have is more appropriate than if you were using a 20 or 30 gallon tank. In the end, it's the temperature range offered that matters, and then you adjust the environment to make it appropriate as per humidity. In general, a water dish isn't enough, but with semi-aquatic snakes a large one can be. Nonetheless it's ideal to always offer other options for humid retreats so that a snake doesn't have to be submerged if it doesn't want to.

Ian

snipstedy
03-13-2015, 04:07 PM
Thanks,I was trying to upload a video but phone issues..she keeps going to the dish and drinking she just stuck her head all the way under water to drink big . She dies seem more energetic as to getting around at times but still stiff in places.

d_virginiana
03-13-2015, 04:18 PM
I don't think dehydration is your main problem here. It can certainly make things worse, but if they've got a water dish they've been drinking from they aren't suddenly going to forget about it and stop drinking to the point they get dehydrated. Not to be a downer, but I think you may be looking at potential organ damage from her getting down to 20 degrees. Excessive drinking can be a sign of kidney issues (and garters are kind of known for having sensitive kidneys).
For now keeping her happy and hydrated and hoping for the best is about all you can do. I just don't see dehydration being the primary culprit here...

snipstedy
03-13-2015, 07:50 PM
I was gone for a couple of days and put a new dish in her tank her usual dish had completely dried out & the new dish was really too tall.that's what made me think dehydrtion. Maybe not like you say..She does seem to be getting a little better.If I'm not mistaken she seems less stiff.

d_virginiana
03-13-2015, 08:53 PM
Hopefully you're right.