Breeding - ethics

[reptileparadise]

I've not been on the forums in a while, but must admit I've sneaked a peak on a regular basis. Garters are a part of my life that I will never (want to) part with.

In the last few years, I have seen a change though and would like to see some kind of adult discussion about how the garter world is evolving. Therefore, I'd like to suggest ethics in breeding, sparked by a topic concerning male (and a sideway movement to female) size for breeding.

I was surprised to see how preference was given to a male that has unwanted characteristics. Smaller size, smaller head, all in all 'not right' (please note - not right are MY words and MY interpretation).
I wonder why this is... Shouldn't we aim to produce healthier lines with good growth, good appearance and everything else we want in our snakes?

Shouldn't we be more selective about our breeding, even if this means we need to wait a year or two longer for our project to take shape?

So far - It does seem like I'm singling a certain case out. Please note I am not, but this is an excellent example of what I've been seeing in the last years...

To make it more personal - anerythristis and albino red sideds are close to impossible to find in Europe. We had a male anery het albino that showed neurological disorder. He could function just fine, but we have still decided to pass the animal on to a responsible hobbyist keeper that doesn't wish to breed him (in the meanwhile he has passed away).

Why did we do this?

For the very simple reason that we do not want to reproduce such flaws. We might see perfectly normal behaviour in the first generation, but what happens if the littermates are paired up again. By chance or on purpose by the next owner.

Do we really want that?

I'd like to get your opinion about this and how you see the breeder hobby evolve in the USA. Some signs of the same are also happening within Europe and I'm seriously starting to worry....
Also, in case there is no feedback at all, I'm happy to have written it off of my chest.

Mods; In case we get a mud-fight or anything non-constructive, please remove the thread....

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Welcome back! First and foremost i would like to say that i can understand and respect your concerns for the hobby as we all love the garter hobby and want the best for our beloved animals. I think you do a tremendous job and produce lovely healthy animals each year and i know exactly what your getting at, but as many litters that i have produced and raised up whether it was from wc, captive bred, and even completely outcrossed animals it seemed like each animal had it's own growth rate. Some grew twice as fast as the others, but most litters were healthy litters with very few slugs, stills, or deaths. Also some males are leaner than others and don't bulk up the same and i'm not so sure that it's something genetic, but i could be wrong. I could breed a extra large male to an extra large female and have the same results as a smaller male. I personally don't see anything wrong with breeding a leaner male as long as he is healthy and is obviously not a dwarf of some form. If he was a 3 year old male at only 9" or 10" i wouldn't breed him, but if he is normal length but just a little leaner i don't see a problem (just my opinion). I agree completely about you not breeding the het albino because that is a c0mpletely different ball game. If the animal is kinked, 2 headed, or has some form of disorder like neurological disorders i don't think it should be compared to a leaner male (just my opinion). I would never tempt to breed any herp with a disorder and am so glad that you didn't even though i know how hard it was to give him up considering how rare he was. Note that this was not an attack toward you, but just my opinion on the situation. It's good to have such open discussions to hear others opinions. Thanks!

[d_virginiana]

Frankly, no I don't think we should be more selective about our breeding than the case you mentioned; the male you're referring to is normal length but very lean. I wanted to make sure by asking people who have bred before that it would be both safe and capable of breeding. The OVERWHELMING answer was "yes". If you're going to use someone's breeding project as the kick-off for a rant about irresponsible breeding you should probably know a bit more about the situation.

I have a blind garter that will never breed. I have a young male that I rescued and who was nearly a FTT, and appears to have neurological damage who will never breed.
The male you're talking about is healthy, YOUNG (thus the lean size. He's still got a bit of maturing to do), and purchased from Scott Felzer who is known for high quality snakes. The breeding project you're talking about has been in my plans for years and should produce babies that are worth a fair amount of money (enough to save them from lives as feeders or starving to death in a seven year old's bedroom).

"Smaller head, smaller size, and all in all 'not right'" Yes: Those are YOUR words, and YOUR interpretation. Shame you didn't bother making sure that they were correct before you chose a well-planned breeding project as the primary focus of this rant. I understand the basic points you're trying to make, but you ruined your argument by choosing a perfectly reasonable and well-thought-out project to base your argument on.

[d_virginiana]

Sorry if my above post seemed angry, but that's because it was. I've been literally planning that particular project for over five years, and to have someone who knows nothing about it other than reading a single post on a forum that you have been (by your own admission) inactive on for a long time use it as the prime example of unplanned and irresponsible breeding really gets under my skin. What's more you're criticizing someone who was willing to put a project they're really excited about on hold if the planned male wasn't actually ready (which an overwhelming majority of responses seemed to think he was).

Find a project that actually is irresponsible, make reasonable criticisms, and then I'd be on your side. Again, I'm sorry but you have no place to criticize that particular breeding endeavor. It is well-planned, all snakes involved are healthy, and the only reason you even know about it to criticize it is because I was posting on a forum to get advice from more experienced breeders (the responsible thing to do).

[reptileparadise]

First of all Lora, since I am looking for an adult debate on breeding ethics, my apologies for hurting your feelings.


(not as in underfed, just generally small; his head is even small for his size)

This made me think that the guy was small for his age and that the head structure is not as desired or expected. And that is exactly what I'm trying to touch in this debate.
Why are we breeding? Are we breeding to multiply or are we breeding for a desired endresult. I fullly understand that you are not happy with me using this as an example. As written, I have not been an active member of the forums (that doesn't mean active breeder, keeper, source of information for more local/European breeders) and your situation was the first that I could see/use as an example.
I've noticed on the American based facebook group for garter snakes that sources (as in, where did you read that, link, facts, etc.) are a requirement before speaking. Therefore using this example, it was easily accessible.
I'm not accusing anyone of irresponsible breeding and/or unplanned matings. I have NO say about anyone's breeding plans.

Another example would be a question someone recently asked me. This person was aiming to breed very deep red, red albino radix. For this, an orange male was used and the outcome was dissapointing. I was asked what the problem could be....


++++
BLUESIRTALIS; thank you for your input. Yes, I would appreciate an open debate with opinions. Of course, I fully understand different growth rates and end size (I always use the example of me being close to 2 mtrs tall, while my brother hardly reaches 180 cm). As I hopefully explain above as well, I'm not aiming at anyone in particular, it is simply a sentence that makes me wonder.....

All our males are lean. All our males take a minimum of 2 years before the are used for mating (females 3 or 4 years) and I'm aware that some males will breed at a young age, low weight, etc. Snakes are made to survive and reproduce.

We are playing for god however and I wonder if we need to be more selective about what we are doing. First generation will not show anything, but when crossing animals back to each other, we might be creating more problems than we can see at this point. That is what I would like us to think and speak about.

I will refrain from further posting on this forum and/or thread and go back into my silent corner where I belong :-) Again, my apologies for trying to start a healthy debate.

[d_virginiana]

First of all Lora, since I am looking for an adult debate on breeding ethics, my apologies for hurting your feelings.



This made me think that the guy was small for his age and that the head structure is not as desired or expected. And that is exactly what I'm trying to touch in this debate.
Why are we breeding? Are we breeding to multiply or are we breeding for a desired endresult. I fullly understand that you are not happy with me using this as an example. As written, I have not been an active member of the forums (that doesn't mean active breeder, keeper, source of information for more local/European breeders) and your situation was the first that I could see/use as an example.
I've noticed on the American based facebook group for garter snakes that sources (as in, where did you read that, link, facts, etc.) are a requirement before speaking. Therefore using this example, it was easily accessible.
I'm not accusing anyone of irresponsible breeding and/or unplanned matings. I have NO say about anyone's breeding plans.

Another example would be a question someone recently asked me. This person was aiming to breed very deep red, red albino radix. For this, an orange male was used and the outcome was dissapointing. I was asked what the problem could be....


++++
BLUESIRTALIS; thank you for your input. Yes, I would appreciate an open debate with opinions. Of course, I fully understand different growth rates and end size (I always use the example of me being close to 2 mtrs tall, while my brother hardly reaches 180 cm). As I hopefully explain above as well, I'm not aiming at anyone in particular, it is simply a sentence that makes me wonder.....

All our males are lean. All our males take a minimum of 2 years before the are used for mating (females 3 or 4 years) and I'm aware that some males will breed at a young age, low weight, etc. Snakes are made to survive and reproduce.

We are playing for god however and I wonder if we need to be more selective about what we are doing. First generation will not show anything, but when crossing animals back to each other, we might be creating more problems than we can see at this point. That is what I would like us to think and speak about.

I will refrain from further posting on this forum and/or thread and go back into my silent corner where I belong :-) Again, my apologies for trying to start a healthy debate.


I'll just respond paragraph-by-paragraph:
First of all, you did not 'hurt my feelings'. You cited my breeding project as the primary example of a poorly thought out project and didn't expect any negative feedback? I understand the need for citing things (I am a biologist, after all) but citing something that doesn't apply may be worse than citing nothing at all.

Second: No one else read that and assumed that I was talking about a deformed or dwarfed snake. Frankly, this is because most of them know me as one of the more active forum members and are aware of my snakes (not to mention my ethics). Again, if you are going to criticize something, you should wait until you know what exactly you are criticizing. I put a lot of time into both my real-world husbandry as well as my online reputation because my end goal is to be a respected breeder. To have someone put a project everyone knows as mine up as an example of poor planning (when that label isn't deserved) could hurt that goal, so yes I am going to reply and disagree with you. This is why I said you should know what you're talking about before you cite something inappropriately.

Third: If you cared to ask me that same question "What are my goals in breeding?" then I would have answered that I wanted/expected a mid to high red litter of 100% het albinos, which is what I am fairly confident that I will get from this pairing. I know exactly why I'm breeding and what results I want.

In regards to "playing god" by breeding siblings or breeding back to parents; everyone is aware of the potential problems that can cause. We can discuss it all day long, but that won't change that it's a common practice in breeding of ANY species. No offense, but IMO it's not exactly a novel topic that really needs discussion.

Finally, I and many others on this forum are perfectly capable of having a civil debate with you about breeding ethics, but not one where you try for no reason to drag people's specific projects through the mud. There's no need to bow out with a "sorry-not-sorry" excuse; just be more aware of who and what you're criticizing in the future if you can't handle someone defending themselves.

[Invisible Snake]

Some people are impatient and/or greedy. They breed just to breed and because they want their "pets" to make them money.

[Eddie]

Mission accomplished!! You started the mud fight you were looking for. Mods??

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I breed my animals for the love of the hobby. I can't think of a better feeling than seeing those little heads poking up out of the substrate and then when you produce something new or maintain a rare line of animals it's just rewarding in it's self. As a family man with tons of bills, lol i will honestly have to say though without breeding and selling it would be harder for me to acquire new animals and food/supplies. I'm not in it for the money, but it is nice to have a hobby that if planned out right will pay for it's self!
some people are impatient and/or greedy. They breed just to breed and because they want their "pets" to make them money.

[d_virginiana]

I'm hoping that a litter this year will get me closer to breaking even on supplies/food for the year.

[joeysgreen]

So the guy used a poor example; can't we discuss the topic at hand without the hissy fit?

I think while breeding for particular traits and aiming for healthy family lines is ideal, I'm frankly just happy that captive breeding of Thamnophis is more common now and hope that it replaces the all-to-common theft from the wild.

Ian

[d_virginiana]

I don't believe defending my project was a 'hissy fit', rather a natural reaction to a post that seemed to single me out unfairly as a target for mudslinging. But as I said I'm more than happy to discuss breeding ethics.

I agree that replacing theft from the wild is probably the biggest concern (in the Americas at least) facing breeders. Unrelated to Thamnophis, that's the reason that I plan to breed my Brachypelma smithi when he/she reaches maturity; breeding of that species is very common in Europe and South Africa, but the ability to harvest them from the wild has put them on the CITES list I could see that happening to some of the less common Thamnophis in the Americas.

The only situation I'm aware of in captive Thamnophis where trying to avoid undesirable traits from inbreeding is a major issue is with SanFrans in Europe (and the people on here I've seen doing it seem to do a remarkable job given the limited gene pool). In most other cases, I'd say it's down to using common sense. Don't breed deformed/sick animals, don't breed animals that you won't be able to sell, and don't breed to siblings or back to parents more than once or twice before outcrossing.

An issue that hasn't appeared in garters yet but is present in both Pacman frogs and Ball Pythons is that of a particular morph that sells well but has undesirable physical effects (shortened lifespan/neurological deficits/skeletal abnormalities). Personally I think that breeding an animal you KNOW will suffer from serious physical problems is just amoral no matter how much it sells for.

[EKS56]

If being chill is a quality you look for the female is about as docile as any I've ever held.

[d_virginiana]

I think the main thing is that both snakes involved are healthy and have desirable traits.

As an aside, can we either let this thread die, start a different thread, or actually discuss ethics? It seems like this thread keeps getting dragged back to life because of the initial drama rather than a desire to discuss breeding.

[Jeff B]

Some people are impatient and/or greedy. They breed just to breed and because they want their "pets" to make them money.

Name one person that makes money breeding garters? Let alone eeks out a poverty level living. Try and I will laugh. There is no greed in the garter snake hobby. If you are lucky you break even. I personally have never even broke even.
Do you guys think that in the wild, garters "wait" to breed until what your minds have deemed is the proper size or age? When they are able they will....just like humans.

[EKS56]

Name one person that makes money breeding garters? Let alone eeks out a poverty level living. Try and I will laugh. There is no greed in the garter snake hobby. If you are lucky you break even. I personally have never even broke even.
Do you guys think that in the wild, garters "wait" to breed until what your minds have deemed is the proper size or age? When they are able they will....just like humans.

I'll have to say I was a little disappointed that I did not see a single garter snake display at the Raleigh, NC Repticon. That looked like a pretty big deal to me for it not to be a single table for Garters.

[guidofatherof5]

I think garterless shows would be the norm as they are even looked down upon in the snake hobby. Luckily, we get it and understand how special they are.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/5307-shunned-show.html

[EKS56]

LOL!!! I checked out your link.
Just like the housing bubble burst I think you will see the same with all the Pied Pythons. There were hundreds of them there and I could hear a couple of the vendors fussing that some of their competition was under cutting their prices. There were a lot of python's there that were $400-$700 that went back home with their owner's.

[d_virginiana]

In a way I'm really kind of glad that garters have stayed out of the mainstream popular pets. You almost never see them being mistreated at chain petstores, and as far as I'm aware there aren't any 'harmful' morphs (like spider BPs and Green Apple pacman frogs) that people still breed for because they sell.
That, and like Jeff said, people are breeding garters bc they love working with them, not bc they want to turn a profit.

[joeysgreen]

What? An attractive snake that's active during the day and is loaded with personality? If this gets out the ball python world is going to be outraged!

[d_virginiana]

I love my BP, but she is basically a pet rock that eats every few days.