Odd lumps

[KITKAT]

I have been away from the forum for a while, but now I have a problem that needs an answer.

my yearling garters have been doing well, gaining weight growing and eating well. About a month ago, I was not feeling well and moved my little snakes and their viv to a bedroom. They were in that room about 2 weeks, and their water became soiled. When I felt better I brought them back into my own bedroom, only to find they have developed odd lumps along there spine area. I do not think the lumps are in the spine, but they are deep under the skin and run along the dorsal area. Of course I have cleaned their environment thoroughly. These are not mites nor blisters... I know what they are.

Two of my babies have one lump, one has two, and one has many multiple lumps. The one with multiple lumps seems crippled by them and doesn't crawl normally.

Not sure I can post a pic... the skin looks normal over the lumps. Eyes are bright and clear. None are eating.

Thanks for any ideas.

[KITKAT]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//508/thumbs/20140930_102834-1.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=12434&title=20140930-102834-1&cat=508)

[BLUESIRTALIS]

What have they been eating? Almost looks like flukes which is a type of parasite most common in live fish.

[KITKAT]

They have eaten salmon, lake perch (from grocery) and ocean perch, as well as small nightcrawlers, pinkie parts. A LONG TIME AGO they had frog legs from grocery.

I have not found a herp vet I like... live near Columbus, Ohio, but cannot see vet during day hours... need weekends.

[KITKAT]

The lumps are palpable and soft under the skin... feel like they are in the muscle.

[KITKAT]

All foods have been f/t except lake perch.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

It really sounds like flukes which are parasitic worms under the skin. If it is flukes they will need to be removed and the snake will need to be treated with praziquantal. If you can get the dosing right on the praziquantal this can be done yourself, but I recommend a vet.
The lumps are palpable and soft under the skin... feel like they are in the muscle.

[d_virginiana]

If more than one developed them after eating the same thing, it's almost definitely parasites. Hope they get better :(

[KITKAT]

Thanks to those who replied. Getting a vet has some unique problems, but that's what sounds best. I hope I can get it done in time to save them.

[guidofatherof5]

Obviously, a Vet. is best but removing the subcutaneous worms is very simple. A small incision and they pop out. The times I did the job the incisions didn't bleed. Treated them with betadine and let the Vet prescribe the meds. The snakes recovered and were fine.

[joeysgreen]

Guys, you can't be seriously recommending she treat her snake via a website diagnosis from a picture. If this snake is compromised, the otherwise safe nature of many dewormers can change to the final nail in the coffin.
Steve, just because it didn't bleed doesn't mean it wasn't painfull or you couldn't have done a lot more harm than good. I know you are a very accomplished keeper, but that crossed the line of practicing veterinary medicine without a licence.

I know I'm coming across as an ***, but we as a group need to keep raising the bar of care. I can see we all love our garters, so we need to get out of the stone age when it comes to their treatment.

Ian

[BLUESIRTALIS]

First off I understand and appreciate your concerns for the well being of animals, but nobody is insisting on them treating the animals themselves. From what I read we all recommended that they be treated by a vet. When Steve treated his animals he was instructed to do so by his vet and prescribed medicine by his vet so he was doing the right thing. This member ask for help and we told them what it looked like are we 100% no, but with the animals being fed fish and both of them popping up lumps it very well look's and sounds like flukes.
Guys, you can't be seriously recommending she treat her snake via a website diagnosis from a picture. If this snake is compromised, the otherwise safe nature of many dewormers can change to the final nail in the coffin.
Steve, just because it didn't bleed doesn't mean it wasn't painfull or you couldn't have done a lot more harm than good. I know you are a very accomplished keeper, but that crossed the line of practicing veterinary medicine without a licence.

I know I'm coming across as an ***, but we as a group need to keep raising the bar of care. I can see we all love our garters, so we need to get out of the stone age when it comes to their treatment.

Ian

[guidofatherof5]

Guys, you can't be seriously recommending she treat her snake via a website diagnosis from a picture. If this snake is compromised, the otherwise safe nature of many dewormers can change to the final nail in the coffin.
Steve, just because it didn't bleed doesn't mean it wasn't painfull or you couldn't have done a lot more harm than good. I know you are a very accomplished keeper, but that crossed the line of practicing veterinary medicine without a licence.

I know I'm coming across as an ***, but we as a group need to keep raising the bar of care. I can see we all love our garters, so we need to get out of the stone age when it comes to their treatment.

Ian


Just following the instructions from my Vet. He has on a few occasions told me procedures recommended and that I was more then capable for doing it myself. I was only sharing my experience with this particular situation.
I agree that it is best for her to get a diagnoses from a Vet.
With time, experience and the guidance of a good Vet. I'm sure many of us(speaking mainly for myself) have performed procedures on our animals. It's certainly not grabbing a sharp rock and cutting them open though.:D No offense meant.;)

[Mommy2many]

We all mean well when it comes to the caring of our animals. Some of us have had advance training/experience when it comes to certain situations (Steve is one of them). Most of us would indeed recommend a vet visit in most cases. Some of the care actually comes from the vet visit, when we have to administer care after the diagnosis. I am always in debt to the information I can obtain from my friends on this forum.

[d_virginiana]

Another reason you see so much home-care recommendation on herp forums is because many dog/cat vets will actually refuse to treat reptiles and amphibians. A vet is always the best choice when one is available, but in some instances they just aren't.
Also, in relation to practicing veterinary medicine without a license, I believe that it varies from state to state what constitutes as vet.med. and what animals it applies to. Non-mammal exotics don't always get protection under those laws. Not that I'm recommending anyone treat or diagnose an animal without a vet visit, but those are some of the reasons you see so much of that on forums like this one.

[joeysgreen]

Lora, yes indeed, but part of owning an exotic pet is finding an appropriate vet before it's needed. Because they are fewer, you can expect to have to drive further.
I also can't speak for every state, but there are rather universal standards in a lot of aspects here in North America. See the AVMA, or your local state veterinary association for specifics. Nonetheless, we are our own judges as to what is acceptable in the absence of appropriate law. I am merely vouching for what I believe to be the best for the animals.

Of most importance is that this is a public forum. Countless people will find this thread via Dr. Google when they have an ill snake. Some may have gotten the appropriate message, but many, many others will see lump = flukes --> cut it out and it will be fine. I speak from personal experience, often having to fix home treatments, or trying to help animals that are well beyond saving, because owner's have waited until all internet advice has failed.

Ian

[d_virginiana]

I get what you're saying. May be where I've been on this forum so long and am aware that the people posting weren't recommending treating without a vet visit, but I think that anyone who is really concerned about doing what's right for their animal would probably get that same message or at least make a post of their own.

I was mainly thinking of a conversation I had on a frog forum with someone from TX about what animals were protected by law in their state, and they said amphibians and smaller non-native reptiles were typically not protected. They could have misread the laws though; I haven't really researched it.

[joeysgreen]

The laws for ownership, wildlife, conservation etc are guaranteed to be different than those governing veterinary medicine. For instance, you can kill a mouse as a pest, or perhaps keep it as a pet if the state says so, but if you neuter it yourself, you've still broken the law. It can get complicated, especially when definitions of livestock, wildlife, and pet begin to blurr together, but for the most part veterinary laws are universal among species.

[KITKAT]

I really love coming back to my thread a few weeks later, and finding this discussion... Not!
actually, Steven treating his own snake is not considered illegal in the state of Ohio as long as the snake was not owned by someone else and Stephen did not receive some sort of compensation. And as far as my compliance with state DNR regulations, everything was done fine. I renewed my license.
The problem was not the license, it had to do with the only herp vet I could find. I did not and will not comment on that in a forum such as this one. Seeing where the conversation went on its own shows that decision to be wise.
Now for the snakes and the lumps...
These were not parasites. Stool float was negative. X-ray showed scoliosis. Vet said it was not a husbandry problem and nothing I did wrong. Probably congenital with an age of onset. Snakes are receiving antibiotic injections "just in case vet is wrong". Two snakes showed signs of pain after gentle handling and have been euthanised. Two are still being treated and time will tell. Two remaining snakes still haven't eaten but one showed some interest yesterday.

[d_virginiana]

I have an old one with pretty severe arthritis (you can feel the lumps on his spine) but it doesn't seem to have progressed very far over the past few years. I don't handle him often anymore, but he seems to have a good quality of life. Hope your others improve.

Any idea as to why so many started showing symptoms at the same time?

[joeysgreen]

I don't see anything wrong with this thread. Figured it was some good discussion. I"m glad you seem to have everything under control and am sorry it doesn't appear to be anything you will be able to fix.

[snakegirl909]

I agree that the discussion was good. I don't see what exactly was wrong with it :/. I am sorry to hear about your snakes :( its always sad when you have to euthanize.

[jmonahan]

Is there a common source of flukes or subcutaneous worms?

[guidofatherof5]

Any subcutaneous worms I've dealt with I believe came from feeding live fish(pet shop guppies).

[joeysgreen]

Are pet shop guppies generally WC?

[d_virginiana]

They can be (especially the fancy ones) but it's mainly the close conditions feeders are kept in. If one of them has a parasite, they all end up getting it.

[guidofatherof5]

Are pet shop guppies generally WC?

I would say no, at least for the local shops in my area. Most of the owners breed them since they do seem to breed at an alarming rate.:eek:

[MDahms]

They are often pond raised in Florida so may as well be wild caught.

Mike