Breeding

[abcat1993]

2 questions:

1. Could a wild caught snake breed?

2. Could 2 snakes breed without going through brumation?

(just wondering, but it would be a good way to get a ton of snakes without parents having a say in it)

[abcat1993]

Ooops. I thought I posted it under "breeding". oh well

[abcat1993]

how did it get under breeding? I just saw it under General Talk. huh?

[CrazyHedgehog]

how did it get under breeding? I just saw it under General Talk. huh?
Admin probably moved it...

Yes yes and yes...

aparently brumation helps, and also stimulates it, however just a slight drop and then rise in temprature can often do the same!

[ssssnakeluvr]

Short drops in temps can stimulate them, however I usually leave them cooled in the garage for at least 2 months before warming them up for breeding. You need to make sure they haven't eaten for at least 2 weeks before cooling. Any food in their digestive tract can ferment and kill the snakes in hibernation.

[abcat1993]

Yes yes and yes...



Do you mean yes to both first and second questions?

[Cazador]

Can you please explain the short drop in temperature technique? How long do you leave them at a cooler temp?

[ssssnakeluvr]

I move mine into the garage for 3 months if I am gonna breed them, 1-2 months if they aren't breeding size and go off feed. The temps in my garage stay around 40-50 degrees. I don't know if the short drop in temps will work for breeding.....I had a pair of wandering garters that I cooled for a week and they attempted to breed, but it wasn't successful. I don't know for sure how long they have to be cooled for successful breeding, but I think it they need to be down for at least a month.

[Cazador]

Yep. I know six weeks is a fairly common "short" brumation. I also normally brumate them between 2 & 3 months, but I'm curious how short is possible. I also wonder if a short cooling stimulates otherwise "ready" snakes, or if it actually does anything, physiologically.

Don,
When you cooled yours for a week, and they tried to mate, I wonder if they would have mated even without the cooling. Did you try pairing them up before cooling them? Thanks,
Rick

[CrazyHedgehog]

I have had them mate before after a general house temp drop..(central heating broke, and although they have their own heating I think it affected them...it was years ago.. didn't know much!) wasn't intentional...
but have also had some mate with no temp change at all..some snakes are just 'more up for it' ahem!

[abcat1993]

How many were you keeping in one cage? What time of year was it? I don't know the seasons in whales though.

[ssssnakeluvr]

They were in the same cage for abotu 2 months before getting cooled for a week while moving to a new place....they stayed in a cool place for a week til I got moved. Nothing happened during the time together before the cool down.

[CrazyHedgehog]

Mine, during winter, about 3 in a tank, didn't know about hibernation then though..

[greyhawk]

Well, a similar idea would be to find a gravid female. Just look for a big fat garter in maybe june or july and theres a chance it might pop some babies out in idk, august, september, somewhere around there. I don't know much about breeding and brumation in captivity, but I do know I've seen garters mating in the fall, usually after a cool rainy period. So I think they can breed whenever they are up to it, but its probably a safer bet to try and cool them down first.

[jasuncle1972]

Can garters produce several clutches from one breeding? Should I hibernate my garter, I figure shes 3 plus years old, any tips?

[abcat1993]

I think it might be too late to start hibernating. Everybody else started in October. But then again I've never bred anything before

[jasuncle1972]

not for breeding , to winterover to spring

[Cazador]

Like Don says, just make sure they haven't eaten for about 2 weeks. Keep them at normal temperature without feeding them for at least 10 days, then start dropping the temperature and photoperiod. I prefer to drop the temperature in fairly small increments (~5F per day), and decrease the photoperiod by about 2-4 hours per week. That's just my style. I think it helps them to acclimate to "fall" conditions, but there are other ways that work just as well. I've know "professionals" who simply stop feeding them and pull the plug on the lights one day.

Another thing I like to do is weigh the snakes before putting them into brumation. It helps you keep track of which ones are doing well, and which are losing weight, but this is fairly rare. Of course, they have to be mite-free and healthy before putting them into brumation.

If you want to put them down for 2-3 months, you'll need cooler temps for 2-3 months. Here in Alaska, I could put them down as late as Feb and still have 40-50 degree temperatures for three months, so start them whenever you're ready. Your offspring (if you choose to breed) will just be smaller next fall because they will have been born later. Best of luck,
Rick

[abcat1993]

So I could breed my wild caught garter? And could I just put the snake outside in the garage just before it gets cold?

[Cazador]

Hey Matt,

I don't want to recommend doing anyone else's method because I don't have personal experience with it. Here's something I can guarantee you, though. Snakes are very vulnerable to sudden temperature changes when they're already brumating. If you think the temp of your garage might drop by ~8-10F when the door is opened, I think you're asking for trouble. You want to find somewhere that's resistant to sudden, dramatic temperature changes. You'll also want to cover their hibernaculum, in order to provide total darkness. Then, if you find a mate, you could breed your snake in the spring. As I recall, you have a female, so you'd want to keep her down until you've already found or bought a mate. You want to have the male present before you bring her out of brumation. Hope this helps,
Rick

[KITKAT]

I stop feeding two weeks before brumation.

I just put them in my basement with no lights, a hide, and a water dish. My basement runs 60 degrees, while the main part of the house is 68, and the office where my PC monitor and reptile lights heat the room up, is usually 70 - 75... and of course warmer in the basking areas.

I cover the tanks in the basement with a sheet for continual darkness.

The drop from the 70 - 75 degree room to the 60 degree basement is sufficient to put my snakes into a light brumation. I keep them down there for six weeks, and bring them back up. I time the brumation so they go to sleep in early to mid January and wake in the first week of March.

:cool:

[abcat1993]

As I recall, you have a female, so you'd want to keep her down until you've already found or bought a mate. You want to have the male present before you bring her out of brumation. Hope this helps,
Rick
I think I have a girl. I wouldn't do that this year, she's a baby. Maybe not even next year. How long can they breed for?

[Cazador]

The answer varies by species and by individual. Thamnophis sirtalis normally lives 8-9 years in captivity, but if I recall correctly has lived up to around 15 years? I think someone just posted that a T. ordinoides actually lived to be 17 years old? Can somebody help me out there? Anyway, I wouldn't count on yours reproducing beyond 7-8 years of age, but there are always exceptions. The very old ones might not reproduce a year or two before they die, but I suspect that most do just find until they die.

To show the species contrast, T. gigas normally only lives to be 4-6 years old, so it obviously wouldn't continue reproducing as long as other species.

[jasuncle1972]

Any answers as to how many clutches can be had from on breeding? When I found my snake sh was already gravid, she had 14-15 babaies. One lived, but got loose in the house.

[Stefan-A]

To show the species contrast, T. gigas normally only lives to be 4-6 years old, so it obviously wouldn't continue reproducing as long as other species.
Are you sure about that? According to The Garter Snakes - Evolution And Ecology (page 190, "Population Biology"), T. gigas doesn't reach sexual maturity until 3-5 years of age. A female would have the opportunity to mate once, maybe twice in its lifetime?

[Thamnophis]

Are you sure about that? According to The Garter Snakes - Evolution And Ecology (page 190, "Population Biology"), T. gigas doesn't reach sexual maturity until 3-5 years of age. A female would have the opportunity to mate once, maybe twice in its lifetime?

I am also curious about that.

[Cazador]

I thought I read it online, but a quick search didn't turn up anything. I did, however, see the 3-5 years until sexual maturity online and in Rossman's book. Thanks for keeping me honest ;).
Rick

[Thamnophis]

In theory you would expect that T. gigas would get older than smaller species.
Often is it so that larger reptiles get older than smaller ones.
But I do not know if this is true for T. gigas.
It's difficult to measure ofcourse. Are there many specimen in captivity?

[Stefan-A]

As a side note, the first google result with the search words "thamnophis gigas longevity", had this in it's description: "No studies of the longevity of giant garter snakes have been conducted." :p

[ssssnakeluvr]

on the age thing...I had a wandering garter for almost 10 years and she was an adult when i got her...I have been emailing a guy inCanada the contacted me thru my website. He has a 42" red sided garter that he caught as an adult over 20 years ago!! I have never heard of one living this long, got to be a record!!! He was keeping her as a pet so I don't know how late she would have bred...

[GarterGuy]

I really wonder if the longevity records of "old" really apply anymore. I mean when you consider how far keeping reptiles has come in just the last 10yrs, it wouldn't surprise me that we'd see snakes living LOTS longer than what was previously thought of as a "record" likespan.

[Thamnophis]

I have had gartersnakes (sirtalis parietalis and radix) that went over ten years of age without problems.

I am sure that a healthy, in captivity living gartersnake that hibernates every year for a month of three can get 15 to 20 years.

In our reptilezoo we keep a number of animals that are there since we opened in 1982. And at that time they already were adult.

Some examples...

Several Python regius that are at least 29 years old.
Epicrates striatus at least 28 years old.
Gekko gecko (Tokeh) that is around 30 years old.
Some Iguana iguana live for about 18 - 20 years in our zoo.

All these animals are healthy and do well.

This does not happen that much by persons at home.

[Cazador]

The problem with statements like, "No studies of the longevity of giant garter snakes have been conducted" is that even if the researcher conducted exhaustive research into ALL the literature, the statement can become outdated in a single day... as new studies get published. The study to which you're referring (link below) appears to have an "information cut-off date" for its publications of 1999, which was actually the draft recovery plan for T. gigas. The rest of the references range from 1952 to 1997 with a mode somewhere in the mid-to-late 80s. Thus, the information in this report is rather outdated, considering the fact that T. gigas has been on both the California and Federal "threatened" species list since 1993. Listing a species on the threatened species list mandates that life history research be conducted. It's amazing that estimates for their true lifespan seem to be so elusive. Finally, the point of my original post was that longevity and fecundity vary from species to species. This point is incontrovertible ;).

http://www.cocohcp.org/hcp_nccp_content/hcp_nccp/app_figs/App%20D%20components/App_D-09a_Giant_garter_snake_1-18-05.pdf

[Thamnophis]

Thanks for hat PDF, Rick.



longevity and fecundity vary from species to species


I agree on this statement.