Bizarre shed

[d_virginiana]

So, my really old guy (13 yrs) just shed, but it was very odd, and I'm wondering if anyone else has seen this in older snakes...
Before he even went blue, I noticed that the scales on his belly had detached (still attached to his body, but you could peel the old scale back away from the new scales underneath easily) long before the rest of them did. They were just kind of hanging on, almost like you'd expect from a retained eyecap or something. It was just really bizarre; you could hear them crinkling when he moved. It never looked or felt like an actual retained shed, so I never tried to remove them unless bits flaked off on their own.
He shed last night with no help and no issues whatsoever; everything finally came off together in one piece.

Basically, I'm just wondering if anyone has seen anything like this? I'm not worried or anything since he doesn't seem to be having any problems, just thought it was odd enough to be worth sharing.

[chris-uk]

I saw a few loose bits of shed on one of my FTT checkered girls, but she shed badly every shed (she's the one that I had to assist each time and ended up with tweezers and a scalpel blade to get of the bits of shed that were retained. Now that I think about it, I can't remember whether there was loose skin on her belly before the shed or just after when she'd retained...
Is it possible your chap retained a shed and this is a second emergency shed?

[d_virginiana]

Hm... I guess it isn't impossible, but he's never had so much as a retained eyecap before (and even this shed came off fine and in one piece; didn't look any thicker or different like it might if it were an emergency shed bc of a retained one). He hadn't been acting strangely at all, which I would have thought he would if anything were retained. Plus, there was never any odd lateral folding like you see with retained sheds.

[Saji]

Odd.

[guidofatherof5]

So, did the shed have a complete shed with the belly scales attached?

[chris-uk]

Sounds like he just loosened up his skin in two phases, his belly skin first then the rest.

Stabbing in the dark here, but...
In principle if he didn't produce enough of the "shedding secretions" (can't remember the proper terminology, but essentially the stuff that turns him blue before a shed) then perhaps he actually went through two blue phases, one that wasn't noticeable because he only "went blue" on his belly, which loosened up the belly scales, then a second blue phase when his body realised that things weren't right because the rest of his skin was firmly attached. I'd certainly put forward a hypothesis that he had an unsuccessful shed, followed by the successful one you've just had.

You didn't say how long the belly skin was loose?

Here's a broader question for everyone, do snakes have any conscious control of when they start to shed?

[kueluck]

Mona who is just about 2 years had some belly scales like that back in April. When she shed it was like having double belly scales, yet her shed prior to that was complete.
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/10373-gails-garter-snake-kind-silly-56.html post #554 has a photo of it.

[guidofatherof5]

Great question Chris.
My guess would be no. I think it a reaction to something (injury, parasites, growth, etc.)

[d_virginiana]

Yes, the shed was all in one piece, belly scales and all.

That could have been what happened- the skin on his sides and back definitely didn't act retained or loosen up at the same time as the belly scales. I first noticed the belly scales looking that way within a week and a half of the actual shed. It's kind of difficult to tell when he goes blue; he's the one that's been blind for several years and his eyes are always cloudy looking, but he really obviously went blue about four days before shedding, which is normal for him.
As old as he is, and still acting normally, right now I'm just chalking this up to strange things that happen because of age.

Interestingly, my other two male easterns shed last night :rolleyes: still keeping with the pattern of everyone shedding when the oldest/biggest one does. I don't think they have conscious control over when they shed necessarily, but I'd be surprised if there isn't some sort of external hormone/pheromone trigger that can cause sheds as well as internal ones.

[d_virginiana]

Mona who is just about 2 years had some belly scales like that back in April. When she shed it was like having double belly scales, yet her shed prior to that was complete.
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/10373-gails-garter-snake-kind-silly-56.html post #554 has a photo of it.

That's actually almost exactly how his looked.

[chris-uk]

After asking my question I had a quick search for literature. Shedding is certainly hormonally controlled, and there were some experiments in the 70's/80's that proved that.
Interestingly there was an experiment with T. sirtalis where the thyroid was either partially or completely removed. What that did was decrease the resting phase between sheds, and if the snakes with thyroid removed were fed dedicated thyroid material it increased the gap between sheds again.
Generally hormonal control isn't consciously controlled, but reactions to stressful events could certainly influence the release of some hormones.

[d_virginiana]

Huh. That's interesting.