Fresh water, derp?

[Herp Derp]

so maybe this is a silly question to some. does fresh water mean straight from the tap or water that has sat to let the chlorine out? because when i was younger and was told to do water changes for fish, no one said the water had to sit and I assumed it was straight from the tap which was incorrect. some people say change water everyday some say up to every week for a snake. how much water would a 13" S dekayi need,size of bowl and change how often?

[guidofatherof5]

I would say a dish big enough for it to soak in if it wants to should be big enough. I use straight from the tap and have had no issues. Letting it sit for a few hours to a day certainly won't not hurt anything. As far as a changing schedule I would say at least every couple days unless it gets soiled(pooped in):D

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/6378-water-importance.html

[d_virginiana]

If you're worried about chlorine/chemicals in the water, just pick up a bottle of water purifier from the petstore (SeaChem Prime is what I use). It's fairly inexpensive, and that way you don't have to worry about any chemicals in the water. Sitting will let chlorine mostly evaporate out, but most places treat with chloramines now, and those don't. I have a couple of gallon jugs that I treat at one time, and then refill everyone's water out of those for a day or two.
Snakes aren't usually super-sensitive to untreated water, but if you've not kept reptiles before/don't know how the water in your area will affect them you might want to pick up some purifier just in case.

[chris-uk]

Our water is pretty good quality-wise, and I don't think anywhere in the UK uses chloramine purification. I went through a spell of using Tetra water purification (same as I use for my aquarium water changes) but stopped that as I read more about it not being necessary. Now I fill water bowls from a couple of 2l coke bottles, I fill them when they're empty and leave the lids off after filling so that chlorine can evaporate. It works for me.

[Herp Derp]

As humans we can tolerate tap water, most fish cant because of the chlorine or chloramine. I've had house cats drink only cold tap water and like it, and I've seen cats that only like to drink nasty water that's been around outside for weeks even if i were to offer fresh water. do snakes prefer it cold or room temp(depending on your enclosure the water may get hotter than room temp)?
I should have stated a clear question like - Is tap water(more so the chlorine/chloramine or anything else the city{whichever} may treat the water with before we use it) a health hazard to snakes?

[slipknot711]

i have about 4 or 5 one gallon jugs that i fill and let sit (if it sits in sun its best) no cap... the chemicals well most of, will evaporate.

[d_virginiana]

Mammals aren't affected by chlorine/chloramines as much as reptiles/amphibians. Most snakes aren't super sensitive to the stuff they use to treat tap water; it will cause amphibians to tox out pretty quickly though. I have several reptiles that are very old/frail as well as some with permanent disabilities so I just use the same water for everyone that I use for my frogs.

[Herp Derp]

Thanks, its kind of funny asking this when not long ago fluoride was used in some places.

[joeysgreen]

Chlorine won't hurt your snakes in the concentrations found in normal tap water. Don't confuse reptiles and amphibians, they are a completely different ball game. Chlorine can irritate the sensitive skin of amphibians. This is how it kills fish; it irritates/damages the gills and the fish can no longer breathe. Many amphibians can leave the water if they find it irritating. Those that cannot still breathe air, but must endure the irritation to the skin. Many 'phibs also breathe through their skin (plethodontids are literally "lungless"), and for any, damaged skin can alter their ability to remain in homeostasis with their environment.

Also understand how chlorine acts as a poison. It is a reactive negative ion Cl- that is searching for positive cations to attach to; even if it has to strip them of weaker ions to do so. This process damages cell membranes and interacts with cellular and tissue physiology. This is how it kills bacteria, and cells lining the mucous membranes of the gills and amphibian skin. In the same token, the Cl- ions react with all sorts of material. I can kill my guppy colony in a nice clean tank with tap water, but if I add the same amount of tap water to my Reeve's turtle tank (which also has a large family of guppies), the chlorine reacts with the plants, soil, stool, debris, and all that organic matter that comes in a natural-type tank. Once reacted, the Cl- makes an inert compound.
Why doesn't it affect human or reptiles? Our skin has keratinous layers of cornified squamous cells. Reptiles moreso of course.

With the smallest of vertebrates chlorine overdose in the drinking water could theoretically occur and cause an electrolyte imbalance; Cl- being an important part of physiology. Animals have balances to confine electrolytes within tight normal ranges, but these balances can be overwhelmed.

So to remove chlorine, let it evaporate, or give it something to bind to.

Ian

[Herp Derp]

Thank you Ian, I was looking for an in depth explanation. I know reptiles and amphibians are different, but since I've never took care of a snake before, I did want to make sure that water straight from the tap was ok.
So it's still best to remove the chlorine but it's just not necessary. So the ways to remove chlorine are 1) buying products from a pet store 2) let the water sit and have the Cl- evaporate 3) agitate the water(powerhead or an air pump in a bucket) to speed up the process of gas exchange or 4) change the habitat to be more natural/have enough things for the Cl-to react. Are there any more ways to remove chlorine and are each of those options correct?

I have another question about how long water sits... at some point does it go "bad" and how long? A)Let's just say its in a bucket alone. B) in a water bowl for the animal.
B) will definitely be more "contaminated"
A) will still get contaminated because of air borne particles over time
What would be the approximate time that it would be considered no longer fresh(I'm going to assume quantity and surface area will play a role)?

[Saji]

I guess if your overly anal you can get distilled water at the grocery store? Um...mine do fine with tap water.

[guidofatherof5]

I wouldn't used distilled. Read somewhere it's not the best for reptiles/pets.
Distillate removes good things too.

[Herp Derp]

:) I`m not overly anal, I just want to understand some of these things better. tap water is the way the majority of people with snakes go, I wonder if it`s too clean for them... it may lack beneficial bacteria that it gets from its environment as well as raising immunity to diseases.

[guidofatherof5]

:) I`m not overly anal, I just want to understand some of these things better. tap water is the way the majority of people with snakes go, I wonder if it`s too clean for them... it may lack beneficial bacteria that it gets from its environment as well as raising immunity to diseases.

It may also contain parasites and other bad things.
I side on the clean water.

[chris-uk]

I guess if your overly anal you can get distilled water at the grocery store? Um...mine do fine with tap water.

Distilled water is probably a bad idea, mostly for the reason Steve put in a nutshell :


I wouldn't used distilled. Read somewhere it's not the best for reptiles/pets.
Distillate removes good things too.

"Good things" are essentially the minerals and ions that are naturally present in water. Drinking distilled water can cause osmotic imbalance and deplete the cells of minerals.


:) I`m not overly anal, I just want to understand some of these things better. tap water is the way the majority of people with snakes go, I wonder if it`s too clean for them... it may lack beneficial bacteria that it gets from its environment as well as raising immunity to diseases.

I'm not sure there is anything in "beneficial bacteria". I'd go for clean water.

[joeysgreen]

Any beneficial bacteria will come from food.
Sitting water never goes bad unless something enters it; algae growth; dead/dying material falling into it; bacteria are seeded etc. If anything, it's hardness will increase as it evaporates, leaving behind it's solutes. Nothing a reptile can't handle.
Distilled water, in lacking solutes will steal them following simple osmosis - electrolytes, free ions, will travel from areas of high concentration (tissues/cells) to low concentration - ingested, pure water. This would work with proteins and other large molecules but the body is built better to retain these. Thus one drink of distilled water is certainly not toxic, constant exposure to nothing but, and you will have a snake in duress.
In natural systems distilled water quickly gains solutes. In a sterile-type enclosure this wont be the case.
Chlorine will evaporate; chloramine won't.
You can get carbonate filters that bind chlorine but chloramine is more difficult to rid. I think many zoos in areas with chloramine are building their own water by using distilled and adding solutes.

Ian

[guidofatherof5]

Distilled water is probably a bad idea, mostly for the reason Steve put in a nutshell :

"Good things" are essentially the minerals and ions that are naturally present in water. Drinking distilled water can cause osmotic imbalance and deplete the cells of minerals.


Thanks Chris, for cleaning up my less then informative post.;):D

[Herp Derp]

Thanks everyone for the info/discussion/explanations.
Ian that post is close to sticky material. So the only way to get rid of Chloramine is by chemical use?
I'd rather try and go natural ways... does collecting rainwater have issues?

[guidofatherof5]

Standing water will remove chloramines.
Rain water can pick up a lot of contaminants as it falls. Letting tap water stand for 24 hours might be the best choice, just my opinion.

[slipknot711]

Standing water will remove chloramines.
Rain water can pick up a lot of contaminants as it falls. Letting tap water stand for 24 hours might be the best choice, just my opinion.

thats what i do. got my 4 or 5 extra jugs that i fill and i leave them un capped.

[guidofatherof5]

Remember, standing tap goes bad too. Not sure how much water you use.

[Herp Derp]

Standing water will remove chloramines.
Rain water can pick up a lot of contaminants as it falls. Letting tap water stand for 24 hours might be the best choice, just my opinion.

I guess I am confused now, Ian mentioned they don't

[Herp Derp]

Ashley, do you bring them inside after they are full? do you cover the tops so mosquitoes don't get in? how long does it stay in the jugs?

[Herp Derp]

There's a lot of factors(temp, air quality, amount of water, etc) that probably contribute to how fast standing tap water will go "bad"... so what length of time would be considered safe? 3days, 1 wk, 2wks..etc? What are the signs if any that the water has gone bad?

[slipknot711]

all 4 or 5 jugs only lasts me 2 days tops, but i dont just have garters i use the water for my cats, my ball pythons, my dragons to top off and change my fishwater etc... so 1-2 days is all i get out of it. where i live the tap water is strong, to me anyways.

[joeysgreen]

If the water looks clean, it's safe to use IMO (tap water left out to evaporate Cl-). If you are worried, you can let it sit for 24hrs and then put a lid on it to protect it. Because of my amphibians I regularly have 5 or 6 10gallon buckets sitting with water in it. It can be used in a day, or 2 weeks, I"m not concerned.

I believe that because chloramine is a larger molecule it remains a solute and does not diffuse into the air. I could be wrong on that; I think I have a paper somewhere on the topic that I'll see if I can find.

For standard practices, it seems for your snakes, using fresh tap water, or 24hr stale tap water will suffice.

Ian

[Herp Derp]

I also have water sitting around so I'm not really worried. I'm just curious about if there was some sort of cut off time one shouldn't use the water, in which case I'd give it to the plants outside. I guess trying to get informed and hopefully this will help new people starting out as well. I like knowing some of the reasons why rather than just do this. It's like you shouldn't give dogs or cat chocolate... not everyone knows that except for maybe owners that have had those pets for a long time(note: caffeine is toxic to us as well in high amounts, pets are smaller so it takes less). When I came to this site I luckily stumbled onto a thread that said red wrigglers can be toxic(depending on what the wrigglers ate) to snakes and should be avoided. I'm wondering now if they are toxic to fish. grr hijacking my own thread... just found some site saying there seems to be a lot of confusion of red wriggler/red worm/red tiger... lots of mislabelling happening as well.

back to the topic
can anyone else chime in on this?

[chris-uk]

Chloramine doesn't evaporate off. I could dig out a reference, but when I was researching my tropical fish I did a lot of reading about water quality. I also found that at the time (3-4 years ago) none of the tap water in UK is treated with chloramine. The issue you have in the US is that your tap water is treated differently depending on your local water company, the industry isn't as closely regulated as the UK.

Standing clean tap water in a clean container shouldn't result in it going off quickly. Mine stands for a day with the lids off the bottle, then I put the lids on to keep it for up to a week before using it. Sometimes I forget to put the lids on and the bottles stay open for a few days. Sometimes I have to change all the bowls at the same time and run out so I use tap water straight from the tap knowing that chlorine will evaporate off from the bowl quickly.

I'm not overly paranoid about water for the snakes. I am paranoid about water for my fish.

[ravendance]

I've been keeping fish for about 10 years and I think I might be able to explain what is/isn't removed from leaving the water standing. There are two different chemicals being talked about here - chlorine and chloramine. Depending on where you live, the water company may use one or the other to treat tap water. Chlorine is less resistant, so leaving the water "Standing" overnight will allow that to evaporate. Chloramine is more resilient however, and will not be removed through evaporation. I've not taken any chances with my fish or reptiles and treat with Reptisafe. My question is, would this be safe for garter snakes? (I tried including a link but the forum doesn't seem to want me to do that?)

[ravendance]

I was wondering, I use Reptisafe for my corn snakes and leopard gecko, is this safe (has anyone used it) for garter snakes?