Need Advice

[Rayzen]

A few days ago, I found a garter snake in the garden. Upon examining it, I realized that it had been paralyzed from about four inches behind the head. There are two clear puncture marks on either side of the snake's spine, so I'm thinking that it was probably the result of my dog having bitten it.


I was hoping that it would be, perhaps, some sort of temporary injury which would soon heal, maybe the result of reduced pressure experienced as the swelling subsided; however, as stated, it has been several days, now, with no sign of improvement. Additionally, it appears as though the snake has no sensation of feeling behind (posterior to) the wound, as I can touch it's body behind the wound, and it will not respond in any way.





As I approach it, the snake frantically tries to escape by writhing back and forth, using the small section of its body located anterior to the wound that still functions normally.



So, to my question: Do reptiles have the ability to regenerate spinal chord tissue, or is this snake permanently paralyzed? I am asking such a question because I am aware of the fact that many lizards can regenerate their "dropped" tails, so it seemed at least a remote possibility that such a capability might exist within the reptilian central nervous system; I doubt it, though.


Well, anyway, I thought it might be worth a long short, as remote as it seems to me. My guess is that the best thing to do for the poor animal is to simply put it out of its misery. I hate the thought of it just lying there, slowly starving to death.




Killing things is not exactly my favorite thing to do, so I would rather help the animal, if it were possible to bring it back to health. However, if my guess is correct, it will probably be the best thing to just end its suffering.



Thank you for your time and effort, in helping me with this situation.

[SSSSnakes]

I would put it out of it's misery.

[guidofatherof5]

The outlook certainly isn't good. At this point I think euthanasia would be best but you have the final call on that. I've been where you are at many time and it doesn't get any easier. Best of luck.
Thanks for taking the time to shelter and care for this injured one.

[d_virginiana]

Agree with the others. Euthanasia is probably best at this point. At least it didn't have to suffer starvation or getting eaten alive by something outside.

Quick, total ablation of the brain is the quickest way to end things for snakes. Just thought I'd toss that out there, since the first thought people have is usually decapitation, which leaves them suffering for quite a while.

[chris-uk]

I've not seen anything to indicate that a snake could recover from the sort of injury you've described.

[joeysgreen]

If there is a chance for it to recover, it is with veterinary help. Pain management seems paramount at the moment.

Squamate tail regeneration is completely different and occurs at predetermined slough zones. It is still possible to have a broken tail.

There are cases of iguana's recovering from back injuries that have caused paresis.
Last week the ER/specialty centre I work at was on the news for the surgical fixation of a broken back in a hit by car dog that is now walking fine.

If you are unable to euthanize this animal (perhaps the best choice), your veterinarian or local wildlife rehabilitation centre will.

Ian

[Saji]

The best way to do it humanely is to connect to containers with a hose. Put the snake in one container, put vinegar and baking soda in the other. Make sure both containers are tight and put it to sleep.

Saji

[chris-uk]

The best way to do it humanely is to connect to containers with a hose. Put the snake in one container, put vinegar and baking soda in the other. Make sure both containers are tight and put it to sleep.

Saji

I'd debate whether a home asphyxiation method is the most humane method of reptile euthanasia. For asphyxiation to be humane you need to use inert gas, not CO2. If you merely use CO2 to displace O2 in the atmosphere it causes distress as the brain tells the animal that there is too much CO2 in the blood stream, that kicks in the physiological mechanisms like breathing heavily and the instinct to fight for breath.
Using an inert gas will displace oxygen in the air without raising the CO2 level, the body therefore does not detect elevated CO2 in the blood that is associated with suffocation and the body slips into a hypoxic state. From memory I think neon is best for this method because it's around the same molecular weight as oxygen (although I have a nagging feeling that the experiment I saw on hypoxia showed that argon resulted in a calmer transition to unconsciousness in humans).

Sorry for diverting the post from the original topic Rayzen, I hope that the little garter is not suffering now (hopefully recovered, but I suspect not).

[Saji]

[QUOTE=chris-uk;256937]I'd debate whether a home asphyxiation method is the most humane method of reptile euthanasia. For asphyxiation to be humane you need to use inert gas, not CO2. If you merely use CO2 to displace O2 in the atmosphere it causes distress as the brain tells the animal that there is too much CO2 in the blood stream, that kicks in the physiological mechanisms like breathing heavily and the instinct to fight for breath.
Using an inert gas will displace oxygen in the air without raising the CO2 level, the body therefore does not detect elevated CO2 in the blood that is associated with suffocation and the body slips into a hypoxic state. From memory I think neon is best for this method because it's around the same molecular weight as oxygen (although I have a nagging feeling that the experiment I saw on hypoxia showed that argon resulted in a calmer transition to unconsciousness in humans).

Everything is suspect or debatable here. It seems very rapid and painless to me.

Saji

[chris-uk]

[QUOTE=chris-uk;256937]Everything is suspect or debatable here. It seems very rapid and painless to me.

Saji

Not sure what you mean about "everything being suspect or debatable here"? Do you mean on the forum, or more broadly about euthanasia? My comment was based upon controlled scientific experiments measuring physiological parameters of humans and other animals up to a hypoxic point where they lost consciousness.

[Saji]

Oh, well. I just keep Garter Snakes... lol

[joeysgreen]

Chris, the flaw is that while (and I may have these reversed) humans and mammals unconsciously instigate the breathing response due to an increase in blood CO2 levels. Reptiles are the opposite and begin the breathing response when O2 levels fall. Further, they consciously breath in a way we do not. For instance, when in surgical plane anesthesia (lack of all reflexes), they do not breath and need to be manually ventilated. Additionally, and incredibly when it comes to species that hibernate, even more so those that hibernate underwater (many turtles), are the ability to proceed with anaerobic respiration, the utilization of oxygen found chemically elsewhere in the body.

Ian

[Saji]

This is as simple as I could find it and yes it is not "detailed". Euthanasia of reptiles (http://www.anapsid.org/euth.html)

[Saji]

By the way where did everyone go to veterinary school?

Saji

[guidofatherof5]

Mine was the "University of Hard-Knocks, School of Thamnophis" I give my advice from the knowledge I've obtained over the years of keeping Thamnophis. Much of the knowledge has come from fellow keeps, Vets and others. Some of use giving advice only due so to minor issues but quickly advise a person to seek a Vet's opinion when it is necessary. We don't claim to be Vets.

[Saji]

Mine was the "University of Hard-Knocks, School of Thamnophis" I give my advice from the knowledge I've obtained over the years of keeping Thamnophis. Much of the knowledge has come from fellow keeps, Vets and others. Some of use giving advice only due so to minor issues but quickly advise a person to seek a Vet's opinion when it is necessary. We don't claim to be Vets.

I was serious. My cousin is a Marine Biologist and teaches at Northern Illinois U. I had him check the thread because he "hangs around" herpotologists and such. It sounded like these guys might be veterinarians to him or at least some type of Biology/Chemistry background. It was actually a compliment on his part.

I am learning the hard way too Steve, TRUST ME.

Saji

[Saji]

Whose "WE"?

[guidofatherof5]

Whose "WE"?

Okay, I see your point. In that case I'll speak for myself. I am not a Vet. and have never claimed to be.

[guidofatherof5]

I was serious. My cousin is a Marine Biologist and teaches at Northern Illinois U. I had him check the thread because he "hangs around" herpotologists and such. It sounded like these guys might be veterinarians to him or at least some type of Biology/Chemistry background. It was actually a compliment on his part.

I am learning the hard way too Steve, TRUST ME.


Saji


Had you explained the reason for your question I would have responded differently. I became defensive and apologize.;)

[chris-uk]

Chris, the flaw is that while (and I may have these reversed) humans and mammals unconsciously instigate the breathing response due to an increase in blood CO2 levels. Reptiles are the opposite and begin the breathing response when O2 levels fall. Further, they consciously breath in a way we do not. For instance, when in surgical plane anesthesia (lack of all reflexes), they do not breath and need to be manually ventilated. Additionally, and incredibly when it comes to species that hibernate, even more so those that hibernate underwater (many turtles), are the ability to proceed with anaerobic respiration, the utilization of oxygen found chemically elsewhere in the body.

Ian

Thanks Ian, that's really useful information. My degree is in medical sciences so my knowledge of physiology is based on human physiology... I know there are many areas where human and reptile physiology differ, I wasn't aware that breathing reflex was different.
It doesn't change (in fact it possibly reinforces) my view that asphyxiation is not a nice way to euthanase a snake, for me nothing beats that destruction of the brain.


By the way where did everyone go to veterinary school?

Saji

See above. I'm not a vet. And maybe before becoming confrontational Saji you should read back your comments and consider how someone else might read them. I would have taken your comment the same way Steve did.

[SSSSnakes]

Crush it's head with a sharp blow from a brick. Quick and painless.

[Shanty]

I'm sure we can agree that we all have a personal philosophy on this issue. Good. I'll respect yours; you can respect mine even if you disagree. Etc, etc, etc. And, yes, a debate is a good thing. This thread made me think about an article I've read before. Here it is for your perusal:

Perception of Pain in Reptiles (http://www.anapsid.org/herppain2.html)

Shannon

[joeysgreen]

Saj, I am not a veterinarian but an animal health technologist. I am working towards specialization in exotic companion animals.

The problem with euthanasia by trauma is if it is done with error, it is by far the most painful. Hesitation, poor aim, movement of the snake, poor device (stepping on a snake may press it into the ground but not cause instant death) all can lead to inhumane demise. At the vet clinic they will inject an overdose of barbiturate into the coelom, keep the animal warm, and allow it to slowly fall asleep. This compromises in that the snake feels a needle puncture, but risk of anything more painful is not present.

[chris-uk]

I'm sure we can agree that we all have a personal philosophy on this issue. Good. I'll respect yours; you can respect mine even if you disagree. Etc, etc, etc. And, yes, a debate is a good thing. This thread made me think about an article I've read before. Here it is for your perusal:

Perception of Pain in Reptiles (http://www.anapsid.org/herppain2.html)

Shannon

That's a good article.

[Saji]

Great article!

I just posted the article I had for people that don't have access to a vet or one that specializes in exotics. If I had a snake that was in any type of pain and was going to die I would love to shell out a few hundred bucks to put it down in the most humane way. Some of us just dont have that option.

I euthanized 2 puff adders one by injecting it with phenobarbital and one through the method I posted. I could definitely see if it was done wrong how terrible it could be. I just got lucky that he he went fast. Both went fast.

I hope I didnt offend anyone. My field of work is so far out of this realm its not even funny, so its awesome to have people like you guys around.

Saji

[joeysgreen]

It is a good article. I first noticed it was outdated, 1999, but after reading it (I probably last read it in 1999) see that it's for the most part timeless. The drug tables could use an update but are a mere "FYI" for the target audience anyway. I can say that nowadays pain management is an every case, non-negotiable part of invasive procedures, illness or injury.

Ian

[Rayzen]

Well, thanks to all of you for your time & effort in responding to my request for advice. Posting the question was a good thing, because I wasn't totally sure about the possibility of, perhaps, central nervous system regeneration in such a reptile as a garter snake. Although nobody seemed to have a for-sure answer to that question, the lack of one, in itself, is pretty good assurance that such regeneration is not possible, or one of you would probably have known about it. I suspected as much, really.

Additionally, I was prepared to just chop its head off, but d_Virginiana's (sp?) response regarding the possibility of there being residual pain associated with such an act dissuaded me from that method.

So, in the end, I just took SSSnake's (Jerry?) advice and put the poor thing out of its misery with a quick, crushing blow to the head with a chunk of 4" x 4" board, after placing the snake on a flat rock. It was very quick and I'm sure there couldn't have been any pain. I hated to do it, but it seemed kinder than allowing it to slowly die of hunger.

The poor thing hadn't eaten in at least three weeks, for sure.

By the way, Saji, Chris is right about that whole issue of CO2 and a related respiratory stress. People who belong to euthanasia groups, such as The Hemlock Society and Final Exit, are quite adamant about suicide via CO2 as being an unpleasant way to end one's own life, and many of them opt, instead, for breathing in helium. In that way, the body's built-in CO2 "sensor" is effectively bypassed, and the person dies without the desperate gasping for air associated with suffocation. Thanks, anyway, for your consideration and effort.

By the way, I was impressed with the group in this forum. It seems to be a rare thing, now, to find a group of people who, although strangers, can give their differing opinions about things without becoming hostile and rude toward each other, focusing, instead, on the problem at hand.

[SSSSnakes]

By the way, I was impressed with the group in this forum. It seems to be a rare thing, now, to find a group of people who, although strangers, can give their differing opinions about things without becoming hostile and rude toward each other, focusing, instead, on the problem at hand.

Even though I am part of this group, we have a great group of people who seem to want to help, instead of arguing. Other forums should take note of how well people here get along.

[Shanty]

I agree with these assessments, and I'm NEW to this forum. I wouldn't stay EXCEPT for this very reason. What a refreshing change from the other hundred forums I've visited and contributed to. There are a few similar, good forums, but they are iris and chicken forums, alas.