Size after one year?

[Askyneedsclouds]

Hi,

I just got my first garter snake (T.s.s.) a few days ago and I managed to measure her today. I was just wondering, as it is a female, if the size of 25cm (ca. 10 inches) is normal after almost a year. She seems to be a bit small, even though she looks incredibly healty and everything.
Maybe you have some numbers for your one year olds, it would help be a lot.
Also, is there something that might help her grow a little bit? She already eats mostly rodents, even though she barely seems to manage half a baby mouse. After a third of it she was already full and I could see a small bulge when she had swalloed it, which I was told is the sign that it was enough.

Thank you :)

[gibble888]

Are you sure its a female?

[Askyneedsclouds]

I was also concerned about that, but the breeder has very high experience and said it was 99% chance to be female. Would it help to post photos?

[Askyneedsclouds]

Some laterals

[gibble888]

Looks like a female to me but please wait for a more experienced opinion. Some just grow faster than others but she doesnt seem too tiny she should be able to eat a whole pinky at least a smaller one.

[guidofatherof5]

No doubt, FEMALE.
10 inches seem a bit small for that subspecies at 1 year.
All you can do is start from right now and see how it goes.

[Askyneedsclouds]

Thank you both a lot, for a second I really panicked over the whole gender thing, but it is nice to have it confirmed.

What, apart from feeding her mice as much as I can, can I do to increase the growth? She does not seem to be a big eater.. I will try to get some worms and see if she likes those better to mix them with the mice, maybe it will help..

Also- I got offered another female (t s infernalis) from another breeder which is also from 2013. The only problem is- the difference could not be more severe! One snake with 25cm versus one that I have been told already almost measures 70cm! Is that even possible after a year?
Is there any chance that one day this difference will go down a bit so that they can be held together? Or should I rather go for a younger infernalis from this year that would presumably be almost her size...

[snakeman]

Way small

[guidofatherof5]

Thank you both a lot, for a second I really panicked over the whole gender thing, but it is nice to have it confirmed.

What, apart from feeding her mice as much as I can, can I do to increase the growth? She does not seem to be a big eater.. I will try to get some worms and see if she likes those better to mix them with the mice, maybe it will help..

Also- I got offered another female (t s infernalis) from another breeder which is also from 2013. The only problem is- the difference could not be more severe! One snake with 25cm versus one that I have been told already almost measures 70cm! Is that even possible after a year?
Is there any chance that one day this difference will go down a bit so that they can be held together? Or should I rather go for a younger infernalis from this year that would presumably be almost her size...

Variety in food is best in my opinion. You can try to feed her up but she may just be a small one. Since she's not a big eater, smaller then normal might just be the norm for her. All you can do is try.

[Askyneedsclouds]

And would there be a problem with socializing her with bigger snakes?

[guidofatherof5]

I think so. Feeding accidents are rare but why risk it. What species are the larger snakes?

[Askyneedsclouds]

I wanted to get an T s infernalis this summer, either a baby or a one year old that is huge. If I fed them seperately, would there be other concerns?

[guidofatherof5]

I don't know much about the eating habits of T. s. infernalis - California red-sided garter snake but believe they have a strong eating response.
I would once again discourage them being housed together especially since the T. s. concinnus - Red-spotted garter snake is so small.

[chris-uk]

She's small for a year old, I've got an infernalis male coming up to the same age that is 35-40cm. Have you weighed her as well? If you have a weight I've got weight records for my male infernalis, 3 female infernalis (they're coming up to 2 years old) and a female radix that is a year old.

Regarding communal housing with a much larger infernalis. I'd be very cautious. My infernalis girls are all voracious eaters, I house them together but after a few feeds in their viv I started separating them because they preferred to steal food from each other rather than get their own food from the bowl. Having said that, they are fine once fed as long as I leave them to come out of "feeding mode" for 15-20m before putting them back together.
On the other hand, my male infernalis is shacked up with my female radix (time to separate the soon) and he's a much more gentle eater, the radix girl is a more aggressive eater. It's tough to generalise about species as individuals have different personalities, but I wouldn't put a small snake in with a larger infernalis.

[Askyneedsclouds]

Thank you both for your assessments! I tried feeding her today and she at least ate the head of a pinkie. If she eats a third each time and I feed her three times a week, I hope it is enough to make her grow and eventually she might be big enough to eat more at once.. at least she does eat, I guess it could be worse, right.

As for the infernalis, IF I would put them together, I would definetely seperate them for eating. I understand that some breeders simply have too many snakes to do that with every one of them, but I would only have two and so I would do it no matter what (even if the sizes were equal). Aphrodite is small, but she is not a nervous character, so handling her and putting her in a box to eat (which I already do) is no problem.

When the feeding process is not a problem- are there any others? Is it possible that the infernalis would somehow attack the much smaller snake? Or would they be fine as long as there is no mouse around?

As for the weighing- I will try to do that tomorrow. I hope she already weighs enough so the scale can pick it up :o Thank you for the suggestion!!

[guidofatherof5]

If Aphrodite has mouse or worm smell on her for whatever reason you could have trouble. Once a garter starts eating they don't care about what they are eating they just finish. You don't want to learn the hard way about feeding accidents. It's safer she stays alone.

[chris-uk]

I agree with Steve, you don't want to see a feeding accident and you don't know what sort of personality the bigger infernalis has until you get her home. If you want to add another girl then I'd advise you to look at this year's scrubs they will be a more comparable size to your current sirtalis. I do have some garters together where one snake is twice the weight of a smaller roommate, but the larger ones are snakes I'd kept and got to know for quite some time before moving them in together so I know that the larger garters are actually quite timid eaters (in one viv my Cuitzeoensis boy is much larger than the tetrataenia he lives with, but the tetra would be more likely to attack Vlad for food than vice versa...).
The only feeding accident I had was with my infernalis girls who are all three a similar size, it's actually the smallest of the three that latched on to the largest girl's head. She let go quickly, but that was the last time I fed them together. I did hear some thrashing tails after I fed them yesterday and had put them all back in their viv, a fairly sure sign that one of them had struck at another, no sign of anything by the time I looked in but it would have been because I was pressed for time and hadn't waited long after they'd finished feeding to put them back together.

I guess the point I'm making is that communal housing isn't something with hard and fast rules, but something you need to assess after observing the individuals and learning about their individual behaviour. If you get another garter don't be reliant on housing it with your current girl, be ready and equipped to separate if necessary.

[Askyneedsclouds]

Thank you again! Now considering your arguments I will not go for the big snake but take a look at this years babies to see if there is a match for her with them. If not, I'll wait; maybe one day...

I put her on the scale today and she weighs 5g (length is pretty much exactly 25cm).
Is this ok? Too thin?
Thanks for your kind advice, I really appreciate it.

[guidofatherof5]

Looking at the first photos you posted she looks fine.

[chris-uk]

Looking at the first photos you posted she looks fine.

I agree, from the photos the little girl looks healthy, she's got good body tone.

The best snake I've got to compare with her is my radix girl, so not the same species but also not one of the larger species (for example, the cuitzeo baby I had two years ago was as large as your little one at birth).
Iodine - born 6 May 2013
I'll just include the more significant milestones:
7 July - 4g, 11 Aug - 6g, 17 Aug - 25cm, 18 Sep - 7g, 3 Nov - 8g, 9 Feb - 12g, 3 Mar - 13g, 11 May - 40cm.
My other girls were all heavier than 5g when I got them, my three infernalis were all around 35-40g at 1 year.

It seems that you just have a slow grower, but if she's eating consistently several times a week there's not much more you can do. What might be worth doing is chopping a pinky into pieces that she can swallow easily and leaving her to eat as much as she likes, and also making sure that the pieces are easy to swallow. What I've found is that when the food is at the limit of what they can comfortably swallow they often stop eating sooner, whereas if each piece is smaller it doesn't distend their stomach so much so they feel comfortable eating a little more.

[Askyneedsclouds]

A quick update,
she is eating very well, I feed her twice a week so she gets to catch up a little bit, in total it is one pinkie and a little bit of fish per week. This should work, I guess.
Another short question- is it normal that she hangs out in the water dish a lot? Like, A LOT. Sometimes she even falls asleep and when I go to bed I see she is still in there.. I thought maybe the temperatures were the problem, but they cant be, it is not warm in here..
So it seems like she just likes bathing?
Also, she drinks very often. Maybe it's just because I watch her a lot and I notice it all the time, but she takes really big sips a few times a day.

Odd questions, I know. But she's my first snake and I want to have her as healthy as possible..

[guidofatherof5]

Well Cynthia, in my experience some garters love being in water but that can also be a possible sign of trouble.
The trouble I'm talking about is reptile mites. When your snake is out of the water have you ever noticed any strange scraping behavior?
Another thing you can do is take a piece of white paper towel. Allow the snake to crawl through it while you hold the paper towel around the snake's body. Hold it tight enough that the snake has to squeeze through. Do this a couple times then inspect the paper towel under bright light and preferably a magnifying lens. You are looking for anything that is moving. Mites are dark in color and are microscopic when very young.
I'm not trying to alarm you but soaking for long periods of time and for days isn't what I would call normal.
I hope that you find your snake has a liking for water only.

[Askyneedsclouds]

Hi Steve,
thank you for your very quick and elaborate reply! After letting her crawl through the paper towel like suggested and examining the water bowl as well, I cannot see any sign of mites at all. It would have been a surprise, as the breeder was very precautious with her snakes. I guess this is a good sign, I will certainly monitor this.
And then- could it be that she'll be shedding soon? Her eyes havent gone blue, but I figured it might be time soon and I thought she looks a bit less "shiny" today. Could you see signs of shedding before the eyes turn blue? It could be a reason why she soaks so much..

[chris-uk]

I found that my snakes stopped spending time in their water bowls as they became more comfortable in their vivs and settled in. I've had a couple of garters that spent a lot of time in water for a few weeks, maybe a couple of months, but now I don't often see them in their water - they seem to prefer the dryer places.
I think that they tend to feel safe under water, once they feel safe in the viv they rely on the water less.

[Askyneedsclouds]

Thank you Chris,
this was very helpful to know. I guess if I don't come across anything suspicious I will just wait a few weeks and maybe she will settle.