Breathing problems?

[Salvation101]

Hey all, was handling my checkered garter this evening and noticed that the back of her head(jaw hinge area) was expanding and retracting rapidly as if breathing deeply? She also "sneezed" I don't know how else to describe it! I'm rather worried about her as she also opens her mouth every so often , I think it's just relocating her jaw as it's a few days after she eats but again, I'm no vet and I've never had this issue with a snake before! Help ! I have a feeling she's got a respiratory problem :(

[d_virginiana]

The jaw movement you say looks like breathing can be either that or swallowing. When do you notice her doing this? If mine get startled shortly after drinking they will often make that swallowing motion.

Realigning the jaw can happen at any time, but four days after eating it won't have anything to do with eating. Is this a quick 'yawn' then she's fine, or a constant opening and adjusting of the mouth? Any gaping while breathing? Those would probably be respiratory symptoms.

Sneezing can definitely be a respiratory symptom, but I have a couple that will make sneezy noises if startled. Do you hear wheezing when she breathes? Any discharge or mucous around the mouth?

If this is an RI, you'll probably need to get antibiotics for it which means a vet visit. Not 100% sure if this is an RI or not without more info... All the things you described can definitely be symptoms of an RI, but if they aren't happening often they can be just normal behavior as well.

[guidofatherof5]

I agree with Lora. If it is a RI then a reptile vet. visit is important. Meds. will be necessary.
Any chance you can post a video?

[joeysgreen]

Definitely take it to the vet. Best case scenario, is the snake is fine and you have a veterinary opinion to rest at ease with. Worst case scenario is that you need treatment, and being proactive, you're ahead of the game, catching it early while the prognosis is still good.

Ian

[Salvation101]

Thanks for the replies guys , unfortunately there is no reptile specialists where i live. The nearest person with any knowledge is 120 miles away so i'm getting in touch with him shortly , i bought a new viv for her as the previous one had some suspicious looking corners (mold i think). so she now has a nice new home and her breathing has improved ! :) cheers again.

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds like you may have solved the mystery about the breathing problem. I would still contact this specialists for further advice.
You might also contact one of our members who lives in your neck of the woods (Perth)
View Profile: gregmonsta - Garter Snake Forum (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/members/gregmonsta.html)


Mold health issues - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mold_health_issues)

[the_edsta]

Checkered Garter - Breathing - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NXdhkwUlnI&feature=youtu.be)
Strangely enough, after asking about how to determine if my on marcianus was gravid in a previous thread, I took her out and worked her for a while and found HER breathing problem has apparently gotten worse! Here was the vid I posted a while ago (not sure if this is like yours).

She has had this problem for a long time... but when she was worked a little today, she started gaping her mouth a bit, and then all sorts of clear saliva/snot started coming out! I was shocked! It didn't look like an infection as it was perfectly clear, but I was NOT expecting it. As I said, she has had the loud and troubled breathing since I have had her and has been fine, but I am worried about this new development? Any ideas? I made a vet appt for Tuesday, though, to be safe.

[guidofatherof5]

I think the Vet. appointment is called for. As for the liquid, it sounds like water she drank.
Any chance you can post a video of her in a horizontal/ more natural position. Sometimes snakes behave differently when being held. In your video I didn't see any of the classic RI(respiratory infection) mouth gaping.
Please keep us posted on this situation.

[the_edsta]

I think the Vet. appointment is called for. As for the liquid, it sounds like water she drank.
Any chance you can post a video of her in a horizontal/ more natural position. Sometimes snakes behave differently when being held. In your video I didn't see any of the classic RI(respiratory infection) mouth gaping.
Please keep us posted on this situation.


No gaping or anything when she is in her cage. She holds her head up usually, her mouth closed. But once he has to hustle a little, the breathing gets loud (like she is just really out of shape, as in the vid). But today it was worse -- just because of the mucas substance (perhaps she had just drank, as you mentioned... I think i'll try her out again later).

[guidofatherof5]

Keep us posted.

[the_edsta]

Just giving an update...

I brought her to the Vet and he dewormed her, suspecting perhaps something like a lung worm, and asked that I come back with a fecal sample from her.Well… I didn’t get one right away… and about a week later, she just stops eating.In summary: she didn’t eat in the month of july or in August.She drank water, I would occasionally force a nightcrawler down her throat, but in July she didn’t eat a thing and in August she probably had two nightcrawlers and a piece of white fish.

Honestly, I didn’t think she would still be alive at this point, but the doctor examined her, and only wanted a fecal.The visit cost $160.While we were in there, he noticed she was stiff in the lower 1/3 of her body.In mid-august, I noticed there seemed to be something hard in her… a lump.It didn’t really dawn on me until yesterday that it was ABSOLUTELY some kind of impaction.She was stiff, not eating, and something was happening in her intestinal track.
So… I put her in a warm bath, let her soak for a while, and then grabbed hold of the hard object.I got a good grip on it, and she twisted to get my grip free… I could feel air bubbles going around the lump, and some came out of her cloaca.I held that lump tight and let her fight against me, as it seemed to be budging the thing.After about five minutes of this, out popped this (pic attached)!

What do you think? At first I though substrate... but now it seems like a slug to me... It is about the size, shape, and hardness of a baby carrot (though waxier).

[guidofatherof5]

Retained ovum.(egg, jelly, slug)

[the_edsta]

Thanks Steve. That is where I'm at. I figure more to come.

What would this mean for her as a breeder (assuming she fully recovers, which is by no means certain). OBV the eggs weren't viable, but that could have happened without a male even being involved. Just wondering if this means she could never breed...

[guidofatherof5]

It all depends on whether the ova tract has been damaged. I've heard of normal births after this kind of thing and others that had trouble again or just never bred again. Of course, we're not just talking about breeding it's really about whether the female ovulates and develops ova again.

[d_virginiana]

The slugs don't mean that the snake can't breed in and of themselves. Could be caused by the stress of whatever is causing the breathing issues? If it's that, my guess would be she could breed without any issues. If it's just that she tends to retain ovum, then you might run into it happening again. My exotics vet actually has recommended to me to breed ones that have issues like that, since unfertilized eggs can be harder to pass than babies (especially if they tend to have slugs without being bred).

[joeysgreen]

I"m not going to judge your vet because I wasn't there. I would have liked to perhaps have had some further diagnostics, perhaps imaging. Bloodwork is always nice. The question here is if the retained slug was the problem or not. Your snake very well could still have lungworms or other parasites; they are a common burden in wild caught snakes (and CB ones too). All in all, I would not expect retained ova to cause labored breathing.

[the_edsta]

I"m not going to judge your vet because I wasn't there. I would have liked to perhaps have had some further diagnostics, perhaps imaging. Bloodwork is always nice. The question here is if the retained slug was the problem or not. Your snake very well could still have lungworms or other parasites; they are a common burden in wild caught snakes (and CB ones too). All in all, I would not expect retained ova to cause labored breathing.

I don't think we should expect a causal relationship, really. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. Once she is eating again (fingers crossed), then I can get a proper fecal sample and have the vet run the exam.

[the_edsta]

The slugs don't mean that the snake can't breed in and of themselves. Could be caused by the stress of whatever is causing the breathing issues? If it's that, my guess would be she could breed without any issues. If it's just that she tends to retain ovum, then you might run into it happening again. My exotics vet actually has recommended to me to breed ones that have issues like that, since unfertilized eggs can be harder to pass than babies (especially if they tend to have slugs without being bred).

That is interesting. I actually had a 2 yr old male in there with her for a few weeks but I don't think he was quite ready yet. Maybe that added some stress to her life!

[d_virginiana]

Maybe I missed you already saying, but is she wild caught? I've never really kept any wc snakes long term, but I wonder if being trapped in a confined space (since even a big tank is confined compared to being outdoors) with other snakes is more stressful for wc snakes than cb ones? Having a cagemate seems to really de-stress all of mine that I've tried it with, but they're all cb.

[the_edsta]

I got her from someone who was traded her, but I can say based on her condition, temperament, and species (marcianus is heavily traded in the pet industry) she is certainly CB. And a VERY calm garter. One of the few that will find a comfy spot to rest on my arm if I take her out.

[the_edsta]

Just a sad update from today... it turns out that, after much treatment, food strikes, etc., and after clearing the retained ovum problem, getting her back on food, having her stop eating again, etc., her fecal exam came back with a an extremely high concentration of Pentastomes. Not only are these aggressive and deadly parasites they are also infectious to humans. Not very good news for sure. I hope the male she was in with for a while is ok...

[guidofatherof5]

Sorry to hear the bad news. Keep us posted about the male.

[d_virginiana]

Sorry to hear that :( One of mine (sadly she passed away) had parasites that were transmittable to humans and other mammals a year or so ago, and they never were transmitted to us, my dog, or any of my other reptiles even though we had been using the same equipment for everyone. Hopefully you have similar luck with that.

[the_edsta]

Sorry to hear that :( One of mine (sadly she passed away) had parasites that were transmittable to humans and other mammals a year or so ago, and they never were transmitted to us, my dog, or any of my other reptiles even though we had been using the same equipment for everyone. Hopefully you have similar luck with that.

Thanks guys. And thanks for the positive thoughts. I wouldn't be nervous about it had I not personally massaged this load of parasites out of her and into my hand just two days ago. I washed, of course, but still no fun. I feel
much worse for her than myself, though!

[joeysgreen]

I'm sorry to hear that. I've never had to deal with Pentastomids this far North but their large physical size makes them a very tough foe to fight. If there is a large burden then the prognosis is dire. I am curious as to what treatment plan the doctor has for your snake.

[the_edsta]

I am sorry... I was not at all clear about this; he recommended that she be euthanized. She was so weak from the various problems she has had (down from 210 grams to 125) that any course of treatment was likely to be fatal regardless. I put a lot of time/money/worry into her already, so it was really a decision between clinging to her or letting go. The fact that the parasite is also dangerous to humans, and I had bathed her in the bathroom sink that my wife also uses, certainly weighed heavily on me (though I still held her for a long time building up the will for it).

[joeysgreen]

ah, again, sorry to hear.

[the_edsta]

Thanks. If there was a lesson to be learned, it was to be extra careful with hand washing etc, as I had no idea that such a transmissible parasite could be hanging around in my otherwise parasite free snake room (not to mention one that, if it takes a human as an end-host, needs to be surgically removed from the lungs!).

[snipstedy]

Dangerous to humans too,wow. My snake was wild caught from early spring( worm size). I've been noticing that its high risk taking wild caught snakes in but no signs of illness with mine so far. I want to order a captive bred coming upto keep he/she company and so he will be less nervous(always hiding) . Very sorry to hear about your loss.

[guidofatherof5]

Many w/c garters live normal lives with a parasite load. The problems come when they infect cage mates. Old/sick snakes can die from the stress the load puts on there weakened immune system.
I think it's best to look at any wild caught snake as carrying a parasite load.

[jmonahan]

Sorry for that terrible experience!

I think we have to be careful assuming wild caught animals are more likely to carry debilitating or dangerous parasites. In this case, we learn just the opposite, after all. Parasites are probably more likely to concentrate to dangerous levels in captive breeding situations - at least in those without impeccable attention to cleanliness. And captive born snakes may not have the natural bacteria and other microbes that animals (like humans) need to keep a healthy balance of gut microbes.

Many of the wild caught and sickly animals in the pet trade have been kept in deplorable conditions, either in their native country awaiting export, or at the importers facilities. Diseases can accumulate and be transmitted, while extremely stressful conditions lower immunity.

But I don't see any reason to think wild caught is more likely to carry dangerous or debilitating parasite loads if they are carefully collected, kept as stress free as possible and housed in proper enclosures. The possible exception are species that don't adapt well to captivity and so are severely stressed simply by being caught and caged.

[d_virginiana]

The thing is a WC animal IS more likely to have parasites though. No matter how stress-free and happy you keep them, they'll eventually get old, then they'll probably get sick. The majority of garters I've seen in the hobby come from responsible breeders (the irresponsible ones actually tend to harvest wc gravid females and keep the babies; I've seen that a couple times). May just be where I'm looking for pets, but garters don't seem very common in the general pet trade compared to things like corns or BPs.
The main source of parasites in captive garters is from feeding live fish or wc frogs. A wild garter will have been eating these things for years. I get what you're saying, but generally you can assume a wc garter has parasites that you don't want passed on to the rest of your animals. It's not so much whether they're a debilitating load or not, bc the animal will eventually get sick even if it's years down the road (wild lifespan is pretty short too; I want to say something like 4 years, with an 8 year average in captivity?)

[joeysgreen]

A perfectly happy and healthy snake with a parasitic load still presents risk. The parasites that it carries are breeding and microscopic eggs are released in your snake's stool. These can infect your other snakes, or in the worst case scenario, people. When it comes to people it's not so much that the parasite is infecting you; it would much rather have been ingested by another snake. However it does it's best and migrates around your body, most often getting lost because you're not a snake. Your immune system tracks down this migrating larvae and encapsulates it in a cyst. We probably have thousands of cysts all around our body from incidental contact with various parasites. The problem lies when these cysts continue to grow (I'm not certain why some grow and some remain infinitismal). The location of the cyst is also of concern. It doesn't take a very large one in the brain to cause a major problem. We found a volleyball sized cyst in the liver of a dog that was obviously causing a lot of problems. Histology reported that it was E.multiocularis, a parasite that does the same damage in people and is common in wild canid populations.

lol, sorry for the rambling. I do find parasitology fun.

In short, I recommend all new snakes be quarantined and dewormed appropriately.

[joeysgreen]

oh, I forgot to add that I had read the lifespan of a wild gartersnake is closer to 10-12 years, provided it isn't squashed on a road or found by a predator. This spring I did not find any previously microchipped animals which somewhat supports 15 years being statistically unobtainable. Fifteen years being how long ago the previous study was done.

I would expect captive gartersnakes to live to around 20 years. I work on a 15 year old radix on occasion.