Why isnt there a chart for breeding different varieties of T. Sirtlais sirtalis here?

[Frenchie]

Hi all members just wondering why no one has put up a chart on breeding variety morphs of T. Sirtalis sirtalis. If someone can it would be neat for everyone ;-).What do you all think about that?

[chris-uk]

Pah. Morphs. Give me a normal anytime.

... You did ask what we all thought. I suppose one of the reasons there's no chart is because unlike other species of snake breeding morphs isn't the be all and end all for many garter keepers. That and the number of morphs in captivity isn't actually that great.

[guidofatherof5]

Here are a couple of our member's websites. Hope this helps.

Garter Snake Morph (http://gartersnakemorph.com/)

Scott Felzer's Garter Snakes, specializing in aberrant garters (http://www.albinogartersnake.com/)

[d_virginiana]

Plus it seems like most garter morphs are either pretty simple to get (can't think of any that would take more than two generations with the right snakes) or they're line-bred traits.

[Frenchie]

lol what I meant is there should be a chart on breeding, example if you take a melanistic & breed back to a normal what do you get & so on& so forth that kind of chart ,but thx for all your answers :-)

[BLUESIRTALIS]

lol what I meant is there should be a chart on breeding, example if you take a melanistic & breed back to a normal what do you get & so on& so forth that kind of chart ,but thx for all your answers :-)

melanistic x normal (non het) = normal 100% het melanistic. The same goes for any simple recessive trait. Most garter morphs are recessive except for a few that are codom! Codom means you will get visuals in the first generation. See below for the list of codoms that I can think of at the moment. I'm sure i'll leave some off so if you see something missing feel free to chime in.

EASTERNS:
flame, born visual
erythristic, some color up over time.
anery / black and blue phase, mohr, alexander, and west Virginia strain some darken up over time

CHECKEREDS:
pastel, born visual

PLAINS
red plains, some color up over time
I think the blue axanthic plains is codom, but it's a little more complicated so maybe scott or jeff will chime in on that one.

[Jeff B]

Pah. Morphs. Give me a normal anytime.

... You did ask what we all thought. I suppose one of the reasons there's no chart is because unlike other species of snake breeding morphs isn't the be all and end all for many garter keepers. That and the number of morphs in captivity isn't actually that great.

This is the kind of unnecessary crap that I am talking about. Chris goes out of his way to bash morphs and that wasn't even what the original poster was asking about. Why people feel the need to run down the morphs around here is beyond my comprehension. I don't have any desire to run down normals.
Then that triggers Lora to post this nonsensical statement "Plus it seems like most garter morphs are either pretty simple to get (can't think of any that would take more than two generations with the right snakes) or they're line-bred traits."
Two generations is 4 years of hard work and dedication, but she doesn't know any better.

[chris-uk]

Jeff, the question was asked why there wasn't a chart on this forum. The simple answer is that there isn't a chart detailing morphs because the people who are active on the forum prefer to keep and breed the variety that has evolved in nature across the numerous garter species. The keepers who are into producing morphs seem to me to just show up when they have something to sell or something new to show off. Personally, from what I've seen of the morph mentality in royal python breeding it destroys the interest in the hobby of the snakes themselves and turns the interest into "what cool colour can I get the babies of my snake to come out as".
Rather than bashing me and anyone else that would dare to voice the opinion that morphs aren't of any interest how about providing some useful information in answer to the original post? There must be information about morphs and I accept it is something that other people are interested in, unfortunately the people interested in it don't post regularly on this forum so their views are often not represented.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Hey Chris don't get me wrong I love normals, but I also love morphs as well! Garter snakes has always been my favorite species of snake since I was a kid and as I got older I started keeping other species, but when I stumbled upon Scott's article in reptiles magazine I was blown away at the colors and morphs he produced. That is one of the things that brought me back to garters. Not that I don't love the normals, but it is nice to produce something different and also keep in mind that this is your opinion on morphs and that the majority of the hobby likes morphs. I'm not bashing you or anyone else just stating my opinion. I remember when Royal pythons were considered beginner snakes and were not very popular and then a few morphs popped up and boom they took the whole reptile hobby by storm. As far as keepers into producing morphs I know of several including myself that are active on here pretty much everyday. I will try to put something together when I get time. Right now between working 55-60 hours a week, My sons baseball practice and games, and practicing and playing music at church keeps me pretty busy and on top of that I have over 75 snakes to tend too! lol! I may have to cut back after this year because I don't have much time anymore and to think it's almost time for babies and grass mowing which takes me 5 hours!
Jeff, the question was asked why there wasn't a chart on this forum. The simple answer is that there isn't a chart detailing morphs because the people who are active on the forum prefer to keep and breed the variety that has evolved in nature across the numerous garter species. The keepers who are into producing morphs seem to me to just show up when they have something to sell or something new to show off. Personally, from what I've seen of the morph mentality in royal python breeding it destroys the interest in the hobby of the snakes themselves and turns the interest into "what cool colour can I get the babies of my snake to come out as".
Rather than bashing me and anyone else that would dare to voice the opinion that morphs aren't of any interest how about providing some useful information in answer to the original post? There must be information about morphs and I accept it is something that other people are interested in, unfortunately the people interested in it don't post regularly on this forum so their views are often not represented.

[chris-uk]

I accept that there are many keepers who are interested in morphs, and don't feel bashed by you at all. Jeff's attitude on the other hand was directed and disregarded my opinions as "crap" and despite his assertion that I go out of my way to bash morphs if you look in the threads with photos of morphs you don't find posts from me saying how ugly I think they are. There's actually one or two morphs I like the look of, but I wouldn't go out of my way to keep them.

At the end of the day there are many ways in which herpetoculture can be fascinating, I happen to think that a snake's behaviour is more fascinating than the colour of its skin, but each to their own.

I'm so interested in genetics, so will be interesting to see what can be put together in response to the original question.

[Jeff B]

I accept that there are many keepers who are interested in morphs, and don't feel bashed by you at all. Jeff's attitude on the other hand was directed and disregarded my opinions as "crap" and despite his assertion that I go out of my way to bash morphs if you look in the threads with photos of morphs you don't find posts from me saying how ugly I think they are. There's actually one or two morphs I like the look of, but I wouldn't go out of my way to keep them.

At the end of the day there are many ways in which herpetoculture can be fascinating, I happen to think that a snake's behaviour is more fascinating than the colour of its skin, but each to their own.

I'm so interested in genetics, so will be interesting to see what can be put together in response to the original question.

Chris you do go out of your way, and you proved it in both posts. I don' think you can even help yourself or realize it. But it's not just you and my statement are not meant for only you or o be that personal. In general this attitude has been spreading like a contagious disease on this forum and I don't see how that is productive.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Pah. Morphs. Give me a normal anytime.

... You did ask what we all thought. I suppose one of the reasons there's no chart is because unlike other species of snake breeding morphs isn't the be all and end all for many garter keepers. That and the number of morphs in captivity isn't actually that great.
theres alot of garter snake morphs

[chris-uk]

Chris you do go out of your way, and you proved it in both posts. I don' think you can even help yourself or realize it. But it's not just you and my statement are not meant for only you or o be that personal. In general this attitude has been spreading like a contagious disease on this forum and I don't see how that is productive.

What you'll see is that my post on your other thread is a response to your derogatory remarks about morph bashing and "taking out the trash", and in this thread my response was to you dismissing my views as "crap". I haven't posted in any thread about morphs (other than discussing genetics) until you turned up the other day with the attitude that people shouldn't be negative about morphs. I have taken your posts personally as currently I'd be one of the most outspoken proponents of normals over morphs.
When you're suggesting that we should be less negative about morphs why don't you do so by posting positively about morphs, rather than just trashing any post that favours normals.
To describe a dislike of morphs and a swing in favour of normals as a "contagious disease" is simply wrong. Why is it a disease? It's simply a change of focus, unfortunately it's a change of focus that may impact on keepers who breed morphs if the morph market doesn't explode and replicate the boom of the royal market.

And Bushsnake, I'm aware that there are quite a number of garter morphs, when I was saying that the number wasn't that great I should probably have carried on the sentence to say "not that great when compared to the number of morphs of royals or corns".

You should also bear in mind that my attitude is based on my experience in the UK. The general feeling I get is that there is an increasing interest in purer species from good lines than in morphs - I get quite a number of PMs from non-eaters people on forums asking if I know anyone breeding this species or that, but have never had one asking about a particular morph.

[paulh]

I like both normal garters and morphs.

The reason there is no simple morph mating chart is because it is impossible to make. I once made a chart of all possible matings involving only three gene pairs for boa constrictors. It had over 700 possible matings. It only took me around 15 hours to write a computer program to do it. No way I'd do it by hand.

The only way I know to make a manageable chart is to make it in three parts. Part 1 would be a list of mutant genes with a notation as to whether each is dominant, codominant, or recessive to the corresponding normal or wild type gene. Part 2 would be a chart showing the inheritance pattern for a dominant, codominant, and recessive mutant gene. Part 3 would show how to make the possible combinations. I can put part 2 together, and part 3 is at No frills genetics guide (http://www.redtailboas.com/f115/no-frills-genetics-guide-53782/)

Anyon want to put together part 1 or put a list of links together that give most?

[ConcinusMan]

lol what I meant is there should be a chart on breeding, example if you take a melanistic & breed back to a normal what do you get & so on& so forth that kind of chart ,but thx for all your answers :-)

There is such a chart. it's called a punnett square. :rolleyes: I think what you're really looking for is a genetics 101 crash course. Once you learn that, this "chart" you speak of, becomes completely unnecessary.

[Jeff B]

There is such a chart. it's called a punnett square. :rolleyes: I think what you're really looking for is a genetics 101 crash course. Once you learn that, this "chart" you speak of, becomes completely unnecessary.

Good point and great advice.

[Frenchie]

Thx for all the advice ,didn't think my post would have made members comment the way they did lol

[guidofatherof5]

Thx for all the advice ,didn't think my post would have made members comment the way they did lol

It's not the norm.;)