Gulf Coast Ribbon?

[Elliot]

Ok, I was looking at pictures of Ribbon snakes online, and now I'm starting to think my Ribbons are Gulf Coast Ribbons, instead of Westerns. The pictures of the two snakes look pretty much the same, but I live on the Gulf Coast of Texas, and both of my snakes are from this area. Here's a few pictures of my snakes, hopefully you guys can help me figure this out.

The female

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/DSC03047.JPG

The male

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/tounge.JPG

[adamanteus]

Sorry, Elliot. Apart from distribution ranges I'm pretty weak on Ribbons.

[Elliot]

Sorry, Elliot. Apart from distribution ranges I'm pretty weak on Ribbons.

Hopefully someone will know lol

[adamanteus]

Gulf Coast...That would be T. p. orarius? Right? I've checked through some of my books but I can't find anything outlining the morphological differences between this and the other proximus sub-species. However, looking at some distribution maps, I would say you are most probably right, Elliot.

[Elliot]

Could you give me a few links to distribution maps?

[adamanteus]

Could you give me a few links to distribution maps?

Sure...this book on the desk in front of me....page 48 Fig.3 (.com):D

Have you seen this?
snakefinder (http://www.gartersnake.de/snakefinder/snakefinder.html)

[Elliot]

Sure...this book on the desk in front of me....page 48 Fig.3 (.com):D

Have you seen this?
snakefinder (http://www.gartersnake.de/snakefinder/snakefinder.html)

It shows that I'm just barely in their range, it doesn't show where the subspecies are though. Would a Gulf Coast ribbon be a subspecies of a Western ribbon?

[adamanteus]

Damn...the sub-species buttons don't work on proximus! I guess you chose a snake that still needs some field study. That's a job for the holidays, Elliot!

[adamanteus]

Would a Gulf Coast ribbon be a subspecies of a Western ribbon?

Yes indeed, Thamnophis proximus orarius. The Western nominate form being Thamnophis proximus proximus.

[Elliot]

Damn...the sub-species buttons don't work on proximus! I guess you chose a snake that still needs some field study. That's a job for the holidays, Elliot!

Actually, I've seen strange things from them in the wild. On time when I was rabbit hunting in the woods by a lake, I heard a crackling noise in the leaves, I looked over, and I saw a ribbon that was easily 3 and a half feet, with a bulg the size of maybe a small bird or a bullfrog. Of course no one believes me when I tell them but I thought I'd share lol

[adamanteus]

How high off the ground was the snake? Maybe he took a fledgling bird?

[Elliot]

How high off the ground was the snake? Maybe he took a fledgling bird?

He was kind of in a tangle of brush, maybe 2 feet off the ground? It's very possible it was a frog or bird, it was only like 15-20 feet fromt he lake.

[adamanteus]

You should do a little field study, Elliot. Just find a spot where you know they are and sit and watch them....for a few days. Don't forget your camera!

[Elliot]

You should do a little field study, Elliot. Just find a spot where you know they are and sit and watch them....for a few days. Don't forget your camera!

I'll try to find them, the problem is, I don't know where they are!

[adamanteus]

Start where you saw the fat one!

[Elliot]

Start where you saw the fat one!

Alright, I might find something, might not. So far the snakes I've seen around here are : Corn Snake, Rat Snake, Ribbon Snake, Copperhead, Water Moccasin (Cottonmouth) Coral Snake, and some sort of snake that's pretty much all brown, but looks exactly like a garter without stripes.

[adamanteus]

That's a lot of snakes, I envy you.

[Elliot]

That's a lot of snakes, I envy you.

Keep in mind I usually only see one or two snakes a year. There really aren't that many here. The only fairly common ones are Copperheads, which are a big problem, and then Cottonmouths in the lake.

[adamanteus]

Copperheads and Cottonmouths are two of my favourite species. I have kept both, but only bred Copperheads.

[Elliot]

Copperheads and Cottonmouths are two of my favourite species. I have kept both, but only bred Copperheads.

If you go out in the woods here, you have to be VERY careful where you step, there is a lot of leaf litter and the copperheads blend perfectly with it. My dog has already been bit and my mom and I have stepped on them too, and that was just in the yard.

[adamanteus]

Can you photograph them for me, Elliot?

[Elliot]

Can you photograph them for me, Elliot?

If I see one, I'd be happy to! My camera kinda sucks though, it doesn't have any zoom and it's only 3.2 megapixels.

[adamanteus]

That's okay, as long as it's in focus! That would be Agkistrodon contortrix mokasen in your area, right?

[Elliot]

Actually, we have Agkistrodon contortrix contortrix.

[adamanteus]

You do? Photos, photos, photos! (So I can argue with you!):rolleyes:

[Elliot]

lol alright, I went to look to see if I could find one, I only found a shed skin. We live very far south in the US, so it makes sense to have southern copperheads I guess.

[GarterGuy]

Hmmm....can't really tell from the pics, but this is how the two different subspecies are described in Audubon Society Field Guide to North American Reptiles and Amphibians...this thing's like my ID bible.:D

Western (T.p.proximus), black back, narrow orange back stripe; no dark stripe bordering belly scales; Indiana, s.Wisconsin, and e. Nebraska south to s. Louisiana, and ne. Texas.

Gulf Coast (T.p.orarius), olive brown back, wide gold back stripe, no dark stripe bordering belly scales; along coast, extreme s. Mississippi to s. Texas.

Hope this helps, from where you got them I'd say Gulf Coast.

Roy

[Elliot]

Hmmm....can't really tell from the pics, but this is how the two different subspecies are described in Audubon Society Field Guide to North American Reptiles and Amphibians...this thing's like my ID bible.:D

Western (T.p.proximus), black back, narrow orange back stripe; no dark stripe bordering belly scales; Indiana, s.Wisconsin, and e. Nebraska south to s. Louisiana, and ne. Texas.

Gulf Coast (T.p.orarius), olive brown back, wide gold back stripe, no dark stripe bordering belly scales; along coast, extreme s. Mississippi to s. Texas.

Hope this helps, from where you got them I'd say Gulf Coast.

Roy

I think that they're just very dark Gulf Coasts.

[adamanteus]

I can't find my Audobon Field Guide!:mad: I hope I haven't lent it to someone, if I have I can't remember who!:confused:

[Elliot]

Now I'm starting to think that they are just Westerns. Their stripes aren't orange enough it appears. I'll get a good comparison shot here in a second.

[adamanteus]

We were discussing Copperheads last night, and Sid sent me this photo via PM. It's such a great photo I thought you all deserved to see it. Thanks for that, Sid, and for the kind words.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/copperhead_11-10-06.jpg

[Elliot]

Oooooooook seeing as how my snakes are ribbons and they are possibly the squirmiest things alive, I was lucky to get these shots.

Female

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/DSC03089.JPG

Male

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/DSC03098.JPG

Link to a picture of a Gulf Coast Ribbon

Google Image Result for http://www.thies-times.com/serpentryan/2006-02.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.thies-times.com/serpentryan/2006-02.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.thies-times.com/serpentryan/2006snake.html&h=480&w=640&sz=74&hl=en&start=7&tbnid=RqTvPUQUco-cAM:&tbnh=103&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgulf%2Bcoast%2Bribbon%26gbv%3D2%26svn um%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG)

Link to a picture of a Western Ribbon

Google Image Result for http://www.gpnc.org/images/jpegs/animals/WRibbon.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.gpnc.org/images/jpegs/animals/WRibbon.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.gpnc.org/WRSnake.htm&h=302&w=520&sz=27&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=emOzWB3Td4mgYM:&tbnh=76&tbnw=131&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwestern%2Bribbon%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D 10%26hl%3Den)

[Josh]

wow
his/her face looks as if it was carved from stone cool
Thw copper head i mean

[Elliot]

We were discussing Copperheads last night, and Sid sent me this photo via PM. It's such a great photo I thought you all deserved to see it. Thanks for that, Sid, and for the kind words.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/copperhead_11-10-06.jpg

Is that a Northern Copperhed?

[adamanteus]

It's a Southern.

[Elliot]

The Southerns are lighter colored than the Northerns right?

[adamanteus]

Do I have my Northerns and Southerns backwards?....It's A. c. mokasen.

[Elliot]

Do I have my Northerns and Southerns backwards?....It's A. c. mokasen.

I believe you do yes lol

[adamanteus]

It's been a while...allow me a few minutes to re-group!

[adamanteus]

Right, I was confused with my English names, correct with the scientific names. It's a Northern Copperhead, Agkistrodon contortrix mokasen. Please excuse my utter foolishness!:rolleyes: :D

[Sid]

James, The thing I can't remember on the Copperheads is wheather it's the Northern or Southern that is prone to it's tail being black. Help me out here pal.

Sid

[GarterGirl]

Ok, I was looking at pictures of Ribbon snakes online
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/DSC03047.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/tounge.JPG

Nice ribbons
It makes me kind of sad to talk about
ribbon snakes because my second favorite
snake I ever had was a ribbon snake
named Olive-Schlange (which means olive snake).

[tray]

How do you no if its a boy or girl

[guidofatherof5]

Now that is dusting off an old thread. :D
Here's a link to show you what to look for.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/breeding/5069-sexing-pics.html