large cut

[snakegirl909]

I'm new here! I've been lurking around for awhile, just reading threads. About two months ago, I was bringing my dog for a walk, at a cranberry bog, that is near my house. Their are garters EVERYWHERE. So I saw one, but it wasn't moving very fast, just sitting their. So I picked it up. It didn't musk on me or anything. I looked down at my hands, and they were covered in blood. Their was a gigantic cut on the garter snakes belly. I had to hold him together, or all of his guts would fall out. I then realized that they were starting to harvest the cranberries, so the used these big blade things to cut all the cranberries. Well anyways, I rushed him home, and wrapped gauze around him to hold him together. About a week later, the blood was dry, so I took off the gauze and just left him alone for awhile for him to recover. It is now a month and a half later, and it still looks the same. I afraid when he starts to shed, it will cause some serious problems. Can I do anything now, to help him heal any faster?

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks for taking the time to help. For it to survive a month is a good sign I think.
The shedding will be part of the healing process. Have you applied any antibiotic ointment? Any chance we can see some photos? Are you in Ohio?(trying to figure out what species you might be dealing with)
It sounds serious if any intestines or organs were damaged.

[EKS56]

With that kind of damage I'm surprised it's still alive. I have had real good luck with hydrogen peroxide and Original Neosporin (with out pain reliever). Use the peroxide until it no longer foams then neosporin till it heals over. Try to keep the wounded area pulled together.

[d_virginiana]

If the internal organs were actually exposed I seriously doubt he'd have made it two months with just gauze. Infection or blood-loss from the organ damage would have shown up by now... Did you actually see organs, or just kind of a bloody mess?
It's impossible to tell without a picture, but my guess is that the cut looked that bad because it was being continually stressed since they use their belly scales to move and any attempt to move would have opened it further. And if it got muscle and not just skin, the wound would gape even further... Could be why it's still an open wound after so long as well. Just a thought.
But send a picture before you put meds of any kind on it. If you're right and the cut did get into the body cavity, you could do more harm than good by putting anything (especially H2O2) on it.

If you put your hand near him, does he seem alert? Like, tongue flicking more rapidly in response to your hand being there? Wouldn't expect him to move much with an injury there.

Shedding sometimes requires your help when you're dealing with a large injury, but it's no big deal. Just keep an eye out, and help them get the shed past the injury when they start to shed.

[aquamentus_11]

Pics please

[snakegirl909]

It was really a big bloody mess, but I did see some organs (I think they were organs?). I will post a pic of what the cut looks like now. I was also VERY surprised that he survived. I will go take some pics now. He isn't moving around much. But I often see him out just looking at me. Now it is dry, so I don't have to hold it together, like I used to. I post some pics soon. I live in Massachusetts.

[guidofatherof5]

I would take a hands-off approach unless you are applying some meds. If it doesn't eat that is probably part of the healing process also.
I think it's important we ID this snake. Any photos would be great.

Looks like you've got a couple garters in your State.

T.sirtalis sirtalis - Eastern Garter
Thamnophis sauritus - Eastern Ribbon Snake

[snakegirl909]

9975

[snakegirl909]

Sorry... this first pic is blurry. I posted another one that looks just like him, but the pic is way better quality.99769977

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks.
T.s. sirtalis - Eastern Garter

[d_virginiana]

Wow, for some reason I was thinking you were talking about a cut going longways down his belly!

If he's looking at you or following you with his head or tongue that's a sign he's probably alert... It's not 100% but they tend to get despondent and not very alert if there's an infection spreading through their body.

Have you noticed urates (white stuff)? If he's been drinking and passing urates, that's a good sign since that injury would make you wonder about injuries to the intestines.

[guidofatherof5]

9975

Not near the injury I was expecting to see. Still a serious issue to be addressed.

[aquamentus_11]

So is it eating and I'd also like to know about urates/poop. Also, are you using any heat? I don't know your background so forgive me, but you may or may not know that reptile immune systems benefit from a proper amount of heat. While room temp is tolerated normally, it'd be nice to add an UTH or heat bulb if you haven't already. I have high hopes for him if it's been this long and he's still kickin. Strong work.

[EKS56]

Not as bad as I had envisioned.

[snakegirl909]

I haven't seen any urates. I have him on a heat mat, but I am thinking of getting a bulb also. Do you think he would benefit from a UVB bulb? He does flick his tongue out a lot which I know is a good thing. He hasn't eaten either. I've offered him both night crawlers, and fish.

[guidofatherof5]

Hydration is very important. Injured snake sometime neglect the water dish. Be sure he is drinking.

[slipknot711]

im really hoping this guy pulls thru

[guidofatherof5]

im really hoping this guy pulls thru

So are we.

[slipknot711]

seems like a trooper so far. just hopefully everything heals up ok and starts to eat soon! sif all goes well with the cut going across like that shedding may not be much of an issue. just the occasional checks to make sure all the skin is off

[ConcinusMan]

If you run into a situation like this again where they are cut all the way through the skin with anything hanging out like you described, that's something that calls for sutures. A good substitute is super glue and duct tape. Any foreign material should be flushed out first. Never use peroxide on deep wounds. I wouldn't even use it for superficial wounds on a snake. A skin cleaner/antiseptic with Chlorhexidine gluconate or weak diluted iodine is best. Peroxide damages healthy tissue and the duration of effectiveness is very short.

At this point it's been so long that I don't know if there's anything you should do but keep it clean. Paper towels for substrate helps. I don't want to recommend any antiseptic simply because I can't tell what's going on from those pics. If it's still open to the inside body cavity it needs to be closed up until it heals shut. The tape and superglue can be removed rather easily once the snake is ready to shed since the old skin just separates from the scales making it easy to peel off.

The snake looks malnourished too. If you can't get him to eat soon (keep meals very small) any efforts to treat the wound won't really matter much. You did hopefully read a care sheet and provide the right temperatures/environment otherwise a snake won't eat, injured or not. Warmth is essential for digestion, immunity, and healing.


I was also VERY surprised that he survived.

I'm not. As long as no internal organs were damaged and it didn't bleed to death, they can survive and recover from massive trauma far worse than that. I hit one with a lawn mower broke it's back, took most of the skin off the back, exposing ribs. Found that snake about a year later, slightly kinked, all healed up, and much bigger and that was without treatment. Last time I saw him I was sure he would bleed to death.

Your snake isn't "out of the woods" yet. That wound needs to close and he needs to put on some weight.

[snakegirl909]

Hydration is very important. Injured snake sometime neglect the water dish. Be sure he is drinking.
I have a water dish in his tank, but never seen him near it. How can I keep him Hydrated if he won't drink out of a water dish?

[guidofatherof5]

You can't force him to drink but can lead him to the water.:D

[ConcinusMan]

Believe me, he drinks it. If you don't believe it, take it away for 3 days and watch him guzzle it when you put it back. No, don't do that but I think you get the point. He wouldn't have survived 2 weeks without drinking water especially if he hasn't been eating.

[aquamentus_11]

A skin cleaner/antiseptic with Chlorhexidine gluconate or weak diluted iodine is best. Peroxide damages healthy tissue and the duration of effectiveness is very short.

Awesome. I was just about to say this.

The benefit of the sutures is that the gaps between them will allow for drainage if the area becomes infected. Drainage means no abscess; which is always good. The benefit of the glue is that it will seal the area and prevent infection. The tape is more versatile: laid perpendicular to the wound it'll act like removable sutures (a la steri strips) allowing drainage as long as you leave gaps. If it's laid parallel, it'll obviously seal out infection. I'm not usually a fan of tapes because of the tendency for unwanted dirty things to stick to the adhesive side and introduce infection, but I've never taped a snake so I'd believe these guys if they say it works.

In either case, IRRIGATION with plain clean water is key: it's very hard to over-irrigate a wound. As stated above, make sure foreign materials are removed and then adding neosporin is always a great idea. Over this make sure to also put a sterile gauze dressing over top and I would suggest some kind of waterproof adhesive film (tegaderm is what I'm familiar with) over top. Do not change this for the first 48h. After 48h, the outer layer of skin will have regrown and will be a good barrier against infection. At that point, letting the wound get air is the best thing for it. Dressing changes can be done daily after the first 48h.

All of these materials can be found at larger drug stores or wal-mart (except the suture of course and maybe the tegaderm).

Hope this helps should anyone need it in the future. I may not be a snake expert, but I do know my wounds.

[aquamentus_11]

btw after the first 48, use only gauze dressing

oh and i think i'd hold off on the UVB out of concern for bright light being a stressor on an already stressed snake. i have nothing to back this up though....

[ConcinusMan]

btw after the first 48, use only gauze dressing

oh and i think i'd hold off on the UVB out of concern for bright light being a stressor on an already stressed snake. i have nothing to back this up though....

At this point it's been months so trying to close it up is probably futile. Snakes don't have any use for UV those bulbs are for lizards that require it. But of course, as long as the snake isn't amelanistic and has places to hide, it won't hurt anything either. Fact, it could cut down on bacteria but keep in mind those bulbs only put out UV for about 12 inches and lose their UV output as they age.

[EKS56]

Seems there could be more than one path to recovery. If it were me I don't know that I would do anything. Just make sure water and food are available. I would go with a pinkie, cut it up if it's too small to take it off the tong.

[EKS56]

I had a very educational experience nursing a Black Rat snake back to health earlier this year.:) To me the wounds looked much worse than what you have. I would not have made a ten cent bet on this snake making it. Here is a link to the thread.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/garter-snake-lounge/12757-black-rat-snake-rescue.html

[guidofatherof5]

I had a very educational experience nursing a Black Rat snake back to health earlier this year.:) To me the wounds looked much worse than what you have. I would not have made a ten cent bet on this snake making it. Here is a link to the thread.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/garter-snake-lounge/12757-black-rat-snake-rescue.html

Great thread.

[aquamentus_11]

yeah i read that one last month actually, another great story. stuff like this really makes me rethink going the human route as opposed to becoming a vet :rolleyes: would be great to get these types of injuries and be able to help. maybe in my spare time i can dabble in wildlife medicine....:D please keep us posted

[snakegirl909]

I'll have get a few pinkies this weekend. Thanks for the link to the thread also, I'm about to read it.

[snakegirl909]

He was basking. Which I'm guessing is a good sign?9989
Just attempted to feed a small canadian earthworm. He just completely ignored it.

[guidofatherof5]

Looks like a male.

[d_virginiana]

What temperature are you keeping him at? If he doesn't have the right conditions, he's not going to eat regardless of whether he's injured or not.

Also, how did you try to feed the worm? A wild snake that has never taken food from tongs or human hands before probably won't do that on the first try. If you have a dish you can cut the worm into reasonably sized chunks on, that'd be good. They still wriggle for a long time, and he can feel more comfortable trying to eat.

Pinkie mice are good, and so are silversides (you can buy them at most pet stores).

[snakegirl909]

I was trying to feed him with tongs...
The air temperature stays about 80 degrees during the day, and drops down to about 73 degrees at night. I have him under a white basking bulb. He no longer has a UTH. Btw, he lives in a 20 gallon long aquarium.

[guidofatherof5]

Why no UTH?

[snakegirl909]

I had to take it off cause the thermostat was not working for some reason. Plus, he seems to like the basking bulb better.

[snakegirl909]

UPDATE:
Just gave him a pinkie... he took it!!! it is about halfway in his mouth, just sitting their. Not really sure what he is doing lol. It is just hanging out of his mouth. I'll give you guys another update in a few mins.

EDIT:
He spit it out :( Is this normal? I'm going to leave it in over night.

[d_virginiana]

UPDATE:
Just gave him a pinkie... he took it!!! it is about halfway in his mouth, just sitting their. Not really sure what he is doing lol. It is just hanging out of his mouth. I'll give you guys another update in a few mins.

If you see poo in a few days and he's not acting lethargic or anything, I'd say that's a good sign he's going to be okay. If he's eating and food is going through his system, that's great.

If he'll eat worms, you may want to try that for awhile. They digest more easily, and it seems like this guy's been awhile without eating. If he won't take them though just give him what he'll take.

[snakegirl909]

If he won't take them though just give him what he'll take.
He won't take anything lol

[guidofatherof5]

UPDATE:
Just gave him a pinkie... he took it!!! it is about halfway in his mouth, just sitting their. Not really sure what he is doing lol. It is just hanging out of his mouth. I'll give you guys another update in a few mins.

EDIT:
He spit it out :( Is this normal? I'm going to leave it in over night.


This is good. It's a start.

[EKS56]

Is it too big? I read somewhere that a snake could eat food only about twice as wide as it's head. Might need to quarter it.

[slipknot711]

i agree good start. hes hungry and ready to give it ago. but maybe it was too big and too scary for him. prolly thought about it and thought hmmm this could hurt pooping if i eat it haha jk. ry quartering it. but interest in it is a big step in the right direction!

[snakegirl909]

Ok thanks! I'll try quartering it tomorrow.

[snakegirl909]

He ate it!!!
Yeah!!!! When should I try to feed him again?

[guidofatherof5]

That's great.
I would say wait at least 24-36 hours to be sure this one is going to stay down.

[snakegirl909]

Ok thanks

[guidofatherof5]

Monitor the feces and feed only lite meals for the next couple of feedings. After that, shovel it in :D

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/8076-poop-id.html

[snakegirl909]

UPDATE:
I have great news! His poop looks fine, and he has been eating like mad. He's eaten three pinkie quarters, and two night crawlers. It also seems like his cut is healing!!! I'm so happy. He is a lot more active then he was before, which is great. More updates soon.

[guidofatherof5]

UPDATE:
I have great news! His poop looks fine, and he has been eating like mad. He's eaten three pinkie quarters, and two night crawlers. It also seems like his cut is healing!!! I'm so happy. He is a lot more active then he was before, which is great. More updates soon.

Now that's the kind of update we like to hear and right around Christmas, perfect.
You'll probably get a shed very soon to aid in the healing process. As a matter of fact you might get a couple quick sheds.
You're doing a great job. Thanks again for taking the time to care.;)

[snakegirl909]

Hey guys!
Sorry for not doing any more updates, but nothing really has been happening. he has not gone into shed yet, and today he refused to eat for some reason. I'm thinking thats normal, but I'm not sure. I have been feeding him weekly. How often do garter snakes go into shed? If his cage is more humid, will he go into shed quicker?
Thanks!

[guidofatherof5]

Good to get an update.
Sheds are determined by age, food intake, growth rate and other factors. Predicting a shed would be difficult.
Supplying a large water source is a good idea.

[snakegirl909]

His water dish is currently 5 inches by 6 inches. Should i put a larger dish in?

[guidofatherof5]

As long as he can soak in it it should be fine. If there is more room and you have a larger bowl it wouldn't hurt anything to upgrade.

[snakegirl909]

yes I do have room. He is currently in a 30 gallon long aquarium, which is very large for a 15 inch garter snake. He has enough room for him to soak in, but I never see him soaking in it. The only time I see him near his water dish is when he is drinking water.

[guidofatherof5]

If the truth be known I think we all be surprised at the amount of time our garters spend in their water.

[EKS56]

You don't want your snake to dry up. A moist snake is a happy and healthy snake. A dehydrated snake even looks bad. Has a dull color to them. A hydrated snake will have a shiny bright color.

[d_virginiana]

Changing soaking habits can be an indicator of how they're feeling as well. I've seen two of mine drastically increase how often they soak when they had health problems.

[snakegirl909]

I see him over by the water dish daily, but just drinking. Are you guys saying that my snake isn't healthy if he's not soaking? He looks hydrated, and i see him drinking water often.

[d_virginiana]

I see him over by the water dish daily, but just drinking. Are you guys saying that my snake isn't healthy if he's not soaking? He looks hydrated, and i see him drinking water often.

I think how much they soak is a personality thing. Some of mine soak a lot and some almost never do. If you have a snake that never soaks and suddenly starts soaking all the time (or vice versa) it may be a sign that they aren't feeling well. If he's drinking, he's probably fine. If he needs to soak to help with shedding, he'll get in there.

They vary a lot between individuals in everything from soaking to eating to how much time they spend hiding. It's when one suddenly changes their behavior that something might be wrong.

[snakegirl909]

Oh OK :D You got me worried!

[ConcinusMan]

I see him over by the water dish daily, but just drinking. Are you guys saying that my snake isn't healthy if he's not soaking?

My snakes don't soak unless they're brumating.


Are you guys saying that my snake isn't healthy if he's not soaking?

No, somebody said their snakes have only soaked when they had health problems. That doesn't mean the soaking was due to health problems. Whether a snake soaks or not has nothing to do with their health. There's no need to obsess over whether snake is soaking or not. They soak when and if they want to, for a variety of reasons. It doesn't necessarily mean anything.


How often do garter snakes go into shed?

Whenever they outgrow their skin they shed. It can only stretch so far before it becomes too tight. When they go cloudy it's a new skin forming under the old one. Once they shed, the new skin expands to fit better than the old one did.

Humidity helps with the shedding process. If conditions are too dry, shedding may be difficult. Humidity has nothing to do with how often they shed. They shed when they outgrow it. Therefore, young, rapidly growing snakes shed more often (as often as every 3-6 weeks) than adults.(older larger adults might shed only only once or twice a year)

The frequency is influenced by many environmental and physiological factors so the frequency does not remain regular and constant through their entire lives.

[snakegirl909]

Hello!
He's doing fine. He's is eating well. Not much else to say really. I've put in a bigger water dish. His colors look dull, so I'm thinking he's starting to go into shed. I'm very happy, and hoping I will be able to release him in spring.

[guidofatherof5]

Wonderful update. Glad to hear things are going well.
You're doing a great job.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//744/Clapping.gif

[ConcinusMan]

Hello!
He's doing fine. He's is eating well. Not much else to say really. I've put in a bigger water dish. His colors look dull, so I'm thinking he's starting to go into shed. I'm very happy, and hoping I will be able to release him in spring.

Awesome. I kept expecting to get n update that it died but it appears it will probably live. Well done.

[guidofatherof5]

Awesome. I kept expecting to get n update that it died but it appears it will probably live. Well done.

Negative Nancy.:D

[snakegirl909]

bad news!!! :(
He is still alive (if that can be considered good news....?)
BUT....
His cut looks awful! The scales around it turned a yellow-brown color, and the cut is slimy looking. He has also refused to eat :eek:.
I'm really nervous!!!

[guidofatherof5]

Do you have any silver sulfadiazine? If not, a week betadine solution would be good.

When was the last shed?

[ConcinusMan]

Negative Nancy.:D

Not really. It's more to do with the odds and track record around here with injured rescues. We usually either hear nothing back, or if we do, it's to report the snake died. Most of the time that's just how it goes.


bad news!!! :(
He is still alive (if that can be considered good news....?)
BUT....
His cut looks awful! The scales around it turned a yellow-brown color, and the cut is slimy looking. He has also refused to eat :eek:.
I'm really nervous!!!

Well there you go, it's not over yet. Pics would help. Could just be a scab over has broken open or it could be infection / fungus. It would help if we could see it. And I'm not sure if youre aware of this or not, but you really shouldn't feed an injured snake until it has weeks of healing behind it unless it's really starving and weak. They heal faster if they don't have to deal with digestion because there is a metabolic cost. One that should be directed at healing and immunity, not digesting food. They aren't like us. Digesting food slows healing significantly.

[snakegirl909]

Well there you go, it's not over yet. Pics would help. Could just be a scab over has broken open or it could be infection / fungus. It would help if we could see it. And I'm not sure if youre aware of this or not, but you really shouldn't feed an injured snake until it has weeks of healing behind it unless it's really starving and weak. They heal faster if they don't have to deal with digestion because there is a metabolic cost. One that should be directed at healing and immunity, not digesting food. They aren't like us. Digesting food slows healing significantly.

Everyone else told me to feed him... :confused:
I will try to upload some pics soon...

[guidofatherof5]

Looking forward to seeing some photos.

[snakegirl909]

1020810209

[guidofatherof5]

When was the last shed? It looks like there might be a retained shed issue. If so, a shed box will be in order.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs0Vqm2pP18

[snakegirl909]

I have no idea when his last shed was!
He hasn't shed with me yet!
Though I will try it anyways.

[guidofatherof5]

It looks to me like there might be a retain shed there. The coloration(yellowish) of the belly scales in the second photo reminds me that. I see a couple of much brighter/cleaner scales there.
I would do a warm shed box then work carefully to see if there is a retained shed.

[snakegirl909]

Ok,
I tried it, but nothing happened. Should I try again?

[guidofatherof5]

You may need to be more hands on to identify and or remove the retained shed. You must first identify there is a retained shed. Here's a link to another thread that might help.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/11703-retained-shed-indentication-treatment.html

[snakegirl909]

It definitely seems like thats whet it is. I'll try it again.

[guidofatherof5]

Soak and try to loosen the shed at the corner of the mouth or at the front lower/upper jaw. It doesn't take much effort to get it started from those locations.
Best of luck, keep us posted.

[ConcinusMan]

I don't see it Steve. I hope he's not trying to peel a snake that doesn't need it. I see the brighter scales in the area of the injury but this sort of discoloration is pretty common around a healing injury.

[guidofatherof5]

I don't see it Steve. I hope he's not trying to peel a snake that doesn't need it. I see the brighter scales in the area of the injury but this sort of discoloration is pretty common around a healing injury.

Well, if it is a retained shed it needs to come off. Saw the yellowing/browning ends of the other scales which reminded me of a retained shed.

[snakegirl909]

Oh, don't worry, I didn't peel it! He is actually going into shed now! His eyes are blue :D

[guidofatherof5]

Oh, don't worry, I didn't peel it! He is actually going into shed now! His eyes are blue :D

Good deal.

[snakegirl909]

great news!
His shed is almost off, and his colors look gorgeous! I'm so exited to see him after he is completely done. It's looking like it's going to come off in one piece which is great!

[guidofatherof5]

Now that's good news.

[snakegirl909]

I can't even tell you how happy I am!
He finished shedding. His cut looks like it is completely healed! It looks like there is just a layer of skin over it (no scales). I not sure he is ever going to get scales their, but he seams fine and healthy. Should I try to feed him now?

[chris-uk]

Feeding a small meal shouldn't do any harm if it's all looking healed.
If the scales have been lost they won't grow back, I've got a radix that has a couple of scales missing from a reaction at an injection site. Her skin is black and smooth where the scales are missing, it doesn't bother her.

[snakegirl909]

Ok great! Here is a picture-
10267

oops! sorry that its sideways!

[guidofatherof5]

Is that the cloaca?

[snakegirl909]

No :eek:
Thats the cut!
Does it look that bad?!?

[guidofatherof5]

No, I'm glad it's not the cloaca. Looks good, no discoloration or swelling. I would inspected it often since it comes in contact with substrate. Probably best to keep the enclosure extra clean for awhile.

[snakegirl909]

oh ok :D
You gave me a heat attack!
i'll keep you updated.

[snakegirl909]

Okay, have been gone for a (very) long time, but here is another update.
He has been released, and have seen him two times since. he looks very happy and healthy. Thank you so much for all the help!

I have also got another garter snake that I will be keeping permanently. I found him off craigslist for free, so I just had to have him. Any ways, I will try to post pics of him soon. I think I will be back on the forum regularly, which is great.

Once again, I feel like I can't thank you all enough for all the help you have given me.

[guidofatherof5]

Great update. Looking forward to seeing the Craigslist Thamnophis.

[chris-uk]

I'm glad that you got some good advice that led to the squiggly one being released. Even better to hear that you've seen him a few times since. Enjoy the new one.