Sudden Neurological issue

[ThamGirl]

Hello again. I feel like I spend too much time in this section.
My two Black-necked Garters have very suddenly developed severe neurological problems. They don't have control of their bodies at all. They are moving slowly with their necks arched backwards, twisting as they move. Their breathing is heavily exaggerated and slow, and they go from rigid to limp to rigid. This is very sudden, within the last few hours. They weren't showing these symptoms this morning, or when I fed them on Monday. This is very similar to what happened to my sick female, but she had a fungal infection that we thought was the cause of it (though it had visually cleared up before she died). At this point, since I've gone through these signs before, I know they are going to die, probably tonight. However, I'd really like to know what is going on.

About them:
Both wild caught in spring/early summer. One male, one female. 20 long tank with about a third of it sealed and partitioned with water and the rest of it dry land. Substrate is a coconut fiber blend mixed with moss. Temps- 75 at night, ambient 80 in the day with a hot spot of 85+ (they are from here in Arizona). Eating silversides 1-2 times a week depending on how active they are and how much they are eating.
Their whole setup is practically identical to my Nerodia, but she's doing just fine. They haven't been exposed to anything new, their routine hasn't been changed recently, they've been on the same frozen bag of fish for a couple months now... I just don't understand how this came out of nowhere. We have 6 other snakes, so I'd really like to try to pinpoint this and avoid a repeat with anyone else... Any suggestions would be great.

[guidofatherof5]

I'm sorry to hear about this issue.
Garters are much like other animals, they hide any symptoms of sickness until it's too late.
From the information you provided I think it might be some kind of vitamin and/or mineral issue. It could also be something in the fish itself.
A fish only diet could be the culprit. These are only guesses on my part.
If they are going to pass I hope it is quick. Please keep us posted on this situation.

[ConcinusMan]

Possibly heavy metal poisoning. The description is classic mercury poisoning symptoms. It takes time for it to build up in a snake before it gets to a level considered toxic and it effects the nervous system. This is least likely if you're using Sally's or Ocean Nutrition brand silversides because they come from the arctic. Closer you get to the poles, the less heavy metal contaminants fish have in their bodies. But not all "silversides" are actually silversides.(the good ones are not a true smelt, they are arctic "pond smelt") "silversides" caught off the coast of California for example, are true smelt and are too salty, contaminated with mercury and PCB's and to top it off, they have moderate levels of thiaminaise. They aren't going to hurt your snake if used in moderation and part of a varied and nutritious diet but used nearly exclusively over long periods of time, mercury or thiamnaise poisoning can occur.

I would stop feeding them that fish immediately and throw it out regardless. These symptoms can nearly always be traced to the fish. I've lost roughly half the snakes that developed symptoms like this but immediately switching them to pinkies (scented with fish if necessary) with supplements has reversed the condition in a month or so for some snakes and they lived. Good luck.

[chris-uk]

Sudden onset of this sort of symptom in two snakes at the same time strikes me as being too much of a coincidence.
Heavy metal poisoning takes time to build up, for both snakes to develop critical symptoms at the same time would be odd.
Vitamin / mineral deficiency would be similar, too big a coincidence for both to go critical at the same time.
Sudden critical neurological symptoms would be something I'd think off as being poisoning, that means something in the food or environment. Is there any chance someone has cleaned or polished the furniture near the viv and they've got a blast of some sort of aerosol?

[gibble888]

I just lost a young female yesterday with the same symptoms as you are having...from the first sighting of her symptoms she lasted less than 24 hrs...and yes sally silversides from cali...done with those...:mad:

[d_virginiana]

I agree with Chris. Normally I'd associate those symptoms with heavy metal issues or thiaminase poisioning, but it would just be bizarre for those symptoms to appear in two snakes within hours of one another. Poisoning is more likely IMO...

That really sucks, but having already lost one snake to this and now two more, it might be good to treat this as if you had a toxin, bacteria, viral, fungal, food, and water issue all at once. I'd deep clean everything the snakes had come in contact with and toss whatever was left of the batches of food you've been feeding them. That's probably the best way to keep your remaining reptiles safe for the time being.

Also, I've never heard of IBD in colubrid snakes, but holding the head back at that angle is associated with a highly contagious virus in boas and pythons. I doubt you're seeing IBD specifically, but just holding the head at a strange angle with no rolling reminds me of viral symptoms. When these pass, could you check for other signs of a viral problem like clogged nose or abnormal color and swelling in the mouth? I don't think it's likely, but neither is having two snakes suddenly develop severe neuro issues at the exact same time.

[EKS56]

:( With both snakes being struck with this at the same time seems like an environmental issue. Food or water?

[ConcinusMan]

I just lost a young female yesterday with the same symptoms as you are having...from the first sighting of her symptoms she lasted less than 24 hrs...and yes sally silversides from cali...done with those...:mad:

San Fransisco Bay brand "Sally's" are arctic pond smelt no matter where you buy them. They are safe. I was referring to ones you get at bait shops or the store for human consumption that are sometimes called "silversides" but they're actually smelt caught off the coast of California. Those can be bad news. I highly doubt the Sally's are the problem. As Lora says we could blaming the food when that's not the cause at all but this just seems to happen more with snakes that are fed mostly or exclusively on fish.

[gibble888]

Ok..here is another thought...i originally recieved two females (cb12 sisters) and the day i got them the one female was acting quite strange...laying upside down etc. She only lasted a day and night and she was sick from the moment i dumped out of her shipping container...so figured was bcuz the seller was feeding her goldfish..but now the sisters offspring had just passed...if not silversides....genetic?

[d_virginiana]

Ok..here is another thought...i originally recieved two females (cb12 sisters) and the day i got them the one female was acting quite strange...laying upside down etc. She only lasted a day and night and she was sick from the moment i dumped out of her shipping container...so figured was bcuz the seller was feeding her goldfish..but now the sisters offspring had just passed...if not silversides....genetic?

How old was the second snake that died? It's possible to have a genetic neurological issue, but something like that would probably show up while the snake was a baby or juvenile. I think the snakes in the original post were adults?
When a young snake dies from something neurological like that my gut feeling is that it's more likely a developmental problem than something that you could pinpoint to a single gene and really call hereditary.

[gibble888]

She was three months old to the day and that wqs 4 days ago....and her aunt that died when i recieved her was very close to the same age...first owner didnt mark down birthday.

[ThamGirl]

Female died day before yesterday, male is still alive and obviously trying to fight it. And yes, both are adults.
I'll try to answer all the questions posted, sorry if I missed anything.
We've gone over everything that's been done in the last couple months, and the only change in anything (including food) has been their location. They were moved to the other side of the house, away from the windows, because it was getting cold. All the snakes were moved to the same area, because it's a space that's easier to regulate the temperature. That was it. Otherwise, no cleaning products are used near the snake tanks, their tanks are cleaned with safe products. Their water is the same water everyone else gets (all our reptiles, bugs and arachnids). This is why we are so confused, nothing has happened recently. I'm just confused and have no idea how to keep this from happening again.

[EKS56]

:(

[chris-uk]

Sorry to hear about the female. It's certainly an odd scenario and not one I'd like to find myself in.

[d_virginiana]

I would treat them like they were highly contagious... If there was some sort of toxin in the surroundings or water, I'd expect the inverts to be the first to react to it. The muscle contractions that cause star-gazing behavior can be caused by anything that advances to a serious point (I've heard of snakes doing it with severe RI's before). If you can't take a body to the vet to get an autopsy you probably won't figure out the exact culprit. Best thing to do it just try to isolate any equipment that could have in contact with them and keep it away from the others, especially if you've got other native colubrids.

That's a really weird situation... Could be something was going through the wild population and maybe the sick one passed it to the other two and they just started to be symptomatic? The one that died from this previously was w/c too right?