Scaless eastern garter

[Scott F]

This baby was a surprise, was produced from the golden eastern bloodlines. Unfortunately the snake has passed away, crappy pics but these are the best ones I have.

Scott

[ConcinusMan]

Every time I get something that bizarre it's born dead or won't eat and dies anyway. Every dang time. Probably had multiple congenital defects and chances are, it's being scaleless was congenital too. Unfortunately being congenital usually comes with other, and terminal, defects. Freaky cool snake there though. At least it wasn't born live without a head like one of mine this year.:eek:

Now when are you going to get around to a decent camera? Wish you had better pics of this one. It's hard to see any detail. :(

[Eddie]

Sorry that snake did not make it. Looked very cool.
Ed

[Scott F]

Hey Ed,

Thanks, it was one of those few broods when you open the tub and have a "wow" moment and took me a minute to ascertain what it was.

Scott

[mikem]

That's a cool little baby. How long did it survive? Did it ever feed?

[BLUESIRTALIS]

What a cool little snake scott! I hate to hear it didn't make it, but maybe you will produce some stronger ones next year! Very cool!

[SD Reptiles]

Maybe good that the snake died...
Because otherwise thamnophis is going to be so ****ed up like ballpythons and cornsnakes...
Just my opinion :)

[BLUESIRTALIS]

What's wrong with ball pythons and corn snakes? They both have a very strong hobby and market! I only keep and breed thamnophis and natrix at the moment, but I have a passion for all snakes and I agree that ball python and cornsnake breeders go a little crazy naming some of there stuff, but overall I see a lot of very nice healthy animals! My only concern with corns is all the hybrid stuff floating around like turbos, jungles, and the ratsnake/corn crosses! I see thamnophis becoming more popular in the future because let's face it garters are the best kept secret! I don't know if they will ever be as popular as corns and ball pythons though because people tend to be scared of the smaller babies!
Maybe good that the snake died...
Because otherwise thamnophis is going to be so ****ed up like ballpythons and cornsnakes...
Just my opinion :)

[Stefan-A]

What's wrong with ball pythons and corn snakes? They both have a very strong hobby and market! I only keep and breed thamnophis and natrix at the moment, but I have a passion for all snakes and I agree that ball python and cornsnake breeders go a little crazy naming some of there stuff, but overall I see a lot of very nice healthy animals! My only concern with corns is all the hybrid stuff floating around like turbos, jungles, and the ratsnake/corn crosses! I see thamnophis becoming more popular in the future because let's face it garters are the best kept secret! I don't know if they will ever be as popular as corns and ball pythons though because people tend to be scared of the smaller babies!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA4lBpoPIWY

I'm convinced that they're both great snakes, as long as you stop breeding them when you start getting bug eyes, neurological disorders, missing pieces or inability to hatch, instead of ramping it up.
Obviously I'm not a fan of hybrids, either.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

That poor snake has a severe case of IBD!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA4lBpoPIWY

I'm convinced that they're both great snakes, as long as you stop breeding them when you start getting bug eyes, neurological disorders, missing pieces or inability to hatch, instead of ramping it up.
Obviously I'm not a fan of hybrids, either.

[Stefan-A]

That poor snake has a severe case of IBD!
Not according to the uploader. That should be the infamous spider wobble.

[BUSHSNAKE]

are we gonna see het scaleless now?? there was a picture of a scaleless eastern garter in reptiles magazine back in the day so its not the first.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Maybe good that the snake died...
Because otherwise thamnophis is going to be so ****ed up like ballpythons and cornsnakes...
Just my opinion :)
i dont think you have to worry about that, not many people take garter snakes seriously

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I guess it could be caused from neurological issues from inbreeding, but man it looks alot like ibd! The symptoms would most likely be the same though since they would both be neurological stargazing! I think the spider wobble comes from the spider gene it's self and not inbreeding since the spider is a codom morph and is outcrossed all the time, but i have never seen one with the wobble that bad and that's why i thought ibd!

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Agreed! I hope this changes in the future though!
i dont think you have to worry about that, not many people take garter snakes seriously

[BUSHSNAKE]

Agreed! I hope this changes in the future though!

if the babies were bigger and took pinkies from birth then i think more people would keep them, but thats what people want they dont wanna mess around with fish or worms when everything else out there eats rodents right off the bat...plus they $hit alot from what i hear lol nevered bothered me.

[BUSHSNAKE]

What's wrong with ball pythons and corn snakes? They both have a very strong hobby and market! I only keep and breed thamnophis and natrix at the moment, but I have a passion for all snakes and I agree that ball python and cornsnake breeders go a little crazy naming some of there stuff, but overall I see a lot of very nice healthy animals! My only concern with corns is all the hybrid stuff floating around like turbos, jungles, and the ratsnake/corn crosses! I see thamnophis becoming more popular in the future because let's face it garters are the best kept secret! I don't know if they will ever be as popular as corns and ball pythons though because people tend to be scared of the smaller babies!

i just picked up a sunkissed and a motley sunkissed corn, theyre awesome...the motley sunkissed is on fire hes so bright

[mikem]

I don't think the spider wobble is from inbreeding. The gene that creates the spider patterning comes with the defect. Some grow out of it to an extent, but it's always there to one degree or another.

As far as scaleless is concerned, it's just another mutation like all the others out there. In the wild, they probably wouldn't do so well, but neither would most morphs of snakes that has popped up in the hobby. I have a pair of scaleless texas rats that are doing great. They eat (f/t) and shed just like their scaled counterparts.

Joe, corns are great! I'm working with a handful now with some super secret special ingredients ;) Tesseras are awesome too!

[BUSHSNAKE]

I don't think the spider wobble is from inbreeding. The gene that creates the spider patterning comes with the defect. Some grow out of it to an extent, but it's always there to one degree or another.

As far as scaleless is concerned, it's just another mutation like all the others out there. In the wild, they probably wouldn't do so well, but neither would most morphs of snakes that has popped up in the hobby. I have a pair of scaleless texas rats that are doing great. They eat (f/t) and shed just like their scaled counterparts.

Joe, corns are great! I'm working with a handful now with some super secret special ingredients ;) Tesseras are awesome too!

cool Mike, let me know what you got going on with your corns..im a buyer lol
i think the tesseras are cool too and like all corns they just get better with age!!
i saw a blood red tessera this weekend and it was smoking...totally clean sides

[ConcinusMan]

That poor snake has a severe case of IBD!

It's the morph. They all do that. ;)


are we gonna see het scaleless now?? there was a picture of a scaleless eastern garter in reptiles magazine back in the day so its not the first.

Definitely not the first. In fact, one of the first scaleless snakes ever found in the wild was an eastern garter.


are we gonna see het scaleless now??

Hahaha Joe. Not if it's congenital like I think it is. I was thinking that the piebald was the same situation but I read somewhere that the "bald" spots on some snakes don't develop until later. Something to do with the pigment cells dying off over time. Same thing that is going on with truly leucistic snakes. In one experiment they implanted pigment cells in a lucy. Whatever is wrong with them causes all the pigment cells to die. The skin can't keep them alive. It's different than amelanism because in those, the cells are there, they just don't synthesize melanin properly. Instead of selling off the "het piebald" babies it might be worth while to hold on to them and see if they don't develop "bald" spots later in life. It's plausible. Then again, the original could have just been a congenital defect and as such, not inheritable.

I would tend to think that if this scaleless thing was inheritable, one or more would have popped up before now. I would just breed those same two snakes again and see if it happens again. I've had a heck of a time trying to get anery concinnus' that are born that way. Now that I've finally done it, I'm going to see to it that I pair up those same 2 parents again. It just might take both of their genes to make it happen. I would do the same in this situation. Pair up the same two snakes.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I know about the spider wobble, but never seen it that bad!

[ConcinusMan]

i just picked up a sunkissed and a motley sunkissed corn, theyre awesome...the motley sunkissed is on fire hes so bright

I'm holding out to get some babies from that jaw-dropping okeetee that shannon has, or at least something comparable. I have an empty 4ft tank for that. I haven't seen very many corn morphs that are appealing to me and I want one that I know hasn't been polluted with other rat snakes. I just find some of the pure, WT corns so much more appealing than any of the morphs. Also wouldn't mind having a leucistic rat snake.

Garters are always going to be my favorite and there's more I want to get but I just want something different for a change. Willing to hold out and take my time getting one though. If I have to wait for shannon to pip a clutch from that okeetee pair it will be worth the wait.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

If scaless easterns are reproduced in the future I want one and i'll take a pied too! Both very cool in my opinion!

[ConcinusMan]

Well, if the kind of pricing logic that was suggested for piebalds holds, then you better start saving now. Maybe you'll have enough to buy a scaleless in about 50 years lol. Maybe they'll actually have them by then but you know they're going to be scarce and downright ridiculously high priced. So high that if one dies on you the NASDAQ will probably drop a thousand points when the news gets out lol

[xStatic]

It's crazy how much people lust after the scaleless corns and ball pythons, but a baby scaleless garter wont be breaking news. I love all types of snakes, and don't have a problem with morphs, even scaleless.

It would be so cool in my opinion if a line of healthy thriving scaleless garters could be established! I think exploring all the little hidden secrets locked away in the genomes of reptiles is fascinating. As long as the snakes don't suffer, I'm all for it.

[chris-uk]

I think exploring all the little hidden secrets locked away in the genomes of reptiles is fascinating.

I suspect that unfortunately very few scaleless snakes ever make it into the hands of anyone capable of exploring the physiological or genetic cause.

[ConcinusMan]

Nope. They just end up in the hands of the highest bidder. :cool: