(s/o who has wild caught) Identify that snake!

[snakemommy]

i had posted asking about who has wild caught garters, but when i put up pictures of mine, that i (maybe incorrectly) assumed was an eastern garter, some people mentioned butler like i had initially suspected until i read that they aren't really in my area- north eastern ohio.

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the last two are taken with the flash on. sorry for my camera quality- also i'm still trying to not mess with her too much, this is her third day with us.

[paulh]

I've seen my share of wild-caught garter snakes, but not Butler's garters.

From what is on the web, Ohio has three species of garters -- eastern garter, plains garter, and Butler's garter.
May 2002 - Ohio Reptiles - Snakes (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/reptiles/snakes/tabid/11848/default.aspx)

As far as I can tell, your snake's lateral stripe is on scale rows 2 and 3. That rules out the plains garter, which has the stripe on rows 3 and 4 and black vertical bars along the edges of the lip scales. I can't rule out Butler's garter because the picture quality is not good enough. But the odds are that you have an eastern garter, especially if your snake is over 24 inches long.

[wolfpacksved]

tham sirtalis, no doubt.

[snakemommy]

she is about 11", no spots on her head or anything

[guidofatherof5]

Your camera might do better with some natural light instead of flash. Any chance for a couple outside photos in the sunlight?

[snakemommy]

it's 25 degrees and snowing so i would worry to take her outside. this is why she was brought home with my bf and son, they were worried with the incoming snow and freezing temps. she has been left to her own devices almost three days since her arrival here with the platy, which she has not touched. she is quite jumpy and very active in the day, very curious. my bf is on his way home with some night crawlers for us to quarter for her to hopefully get some food in her belly. once i can get her to eat and handle her, i will try for some better pics, yet.
she has a dish of water where the platy is chilling, she swims right by him, uninterested. is he too big for her? she has an UTH, paper pulp substrate, a washed out ketchup bottle hide, and some sticks to explore. is there anything else i can do to make her more comfortable?

[guidofatherof5]

A good, secure lid.
Does she use the hide? I know that some plastics can retain odor from their content. Cardboard is always a good hide.

[snakemommy]

got the secure lid covered, one of the rubbermaid snap tops with several holes. she has a couple times, it's glass. i got to thinking that may be too cold though?

[chris-uk]

Don't expect her to eat at this time of year. If she's been gearing up for the winter she's quite likely to refuse food until things warm up in the Spring. She may eat over the winter in a heated enclosure, but if she doesn't you shouldn't stress until she still refuses to eat in several months time.

All of my garters love cardboard tubes.

[snakemommy]

if she refuses food, should i brumate her?

[d_virginiana]

if she refuses food, should i brumate her?

Brumation can be tricky, especially if this is your first snake. I think you'd have better luck getting a heat pad or lamp and keeping her awake during the winter.

[snakemommy]

great! just keep trying to offer food?

[SD Reptiles]

Just leave her in a box in a unheated room for about a week or 3 and than give her a baskingspot in a heated room and wait until she's going lay under it.
Than you can try to feed again.

[ConcinusMan]

. i got to thinking that may be too cold though?

Snakes wouldn't be eating this time of year anyway. But yeah there's no heat? I mean the snake needs to be able to regulate it's own temperature between about 70 F - 88 F. No garter is going to eat or even be able to digest at just room temperature. Read the care sheet and get him warmed up or you could have a sick snake on your hands (respiratory infection) pretty fast and even if it somehow managed to not get sick it probably won't eat without some heat. If the snake continues to lose weight and still won't eat then you really don't have many options except to release when it's not freezing outside or brumate, which as was mentioned, is tricky mainly because they need to stay at 48-52 F with little or no fluctuation. A regular fridge is too cold. They need a dedicated one with the door cracked and set up ahead of time to make sure it's staying at the right temp. I don't recommend beginners try to brumate.


great! just keep trying to offer food?

No. There's no point unless you set up the temperature gradient mentioned in the care sheet and the snake has had time to settle in. This could take a couple of weeks. The snake flat out isn't going to eat until the environment is right and it feels comfortable with it's surroundings. Even under those circumstances it's going to take time. If a snake refuses to eat, don't offer again for a week and you need to correct the environment. Room temp isn't going to cut it.

You got this snake at a time when they are supposed to be brumating so that's part of the problem I'm sure.

[snakemommy]

She has an under tank heater but I feel like she needs a light, probably the tortoise momma in me. I was worried about humidity so I bought a tank with better airflow too.

[ConcinusMan]

light is less important but I use small florescent tubes to light some 20 L and 10 gallon tanks. I seem to get more natural activity levels if I simulate natural daylight and provide "sunny" basking areas.


http://youtu.be/S5tY5tGRvDI


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[snakemommy]

Okay I have some spare fixtures and can get her hooked up today. She is really settling down while being handled and is becoming much easier to pick up. I love walking by and seeing her little head poked up out of the substrate or her all draped over a branch. :)

[guidofatherof5]

Okay I have some spare fixtures and can get her hooked up today. She is really settling down while being handled and is becoming much easier to pick up. I love walking by and seeing her little head poked up out of the substrate or her all draped over a branch. :)

You are experiencing the best part of the Thamnophis species. They are active and alert and in time most will trust. They want to know what's going on and take a great interest in their surroundings. Once they trust they will come out to beg for food or to simply be interacted with. These kind of traits set them apart from most other snakes. They each have their on personalities, likes and dislikes.
They are the best kept secret in the snake hobby. Many snake fans are not garter fans.
We are the few that see them for what they really are.;)

[ConcinusMan]

Okay I have some spare fixtures and can get her hooked up today. She is really settling down while being handled and is becoming much easier to pick up. I love walking by and seeing her little head poked up out of the substrate or her all draped over a branch. :)

If you're talking about the standard socket type lamp, any will do if you're going to use a compact florescent for light. But for an incandescent bulb for heat/basking, only use reflector type bulbs such as a household flood lamp, and only use a fixture that has a ceramic socket and ONLY with the dome in place. DO NOT exceed the recommended wattage. I've seen all too often people trying to save a buck by using a cheap $5-$10 fixture with a plastic socket, ignoring the wattage, and end up starting a fire or creating a very dangerous situation. For incandescent bulbs, not just any fixture or bulb will do. The fixture I'm using here has a CERAMIC socket and the bulb is a only a 60 watt FLOOD lamp.

[snakemommy]

We have some extra UVB lights from some sulcata hatchlings we had a few years back. I was just going to go ahead and use one of those with one of the reflective cone type fixtures. We've used those for almost seven years with great success with our other reptile babies. I have read garters can benefit a little from uvb. We have it rigged so she can't get near the light and is still secure. (There was a lady admin who posted pics of her half aquatic habitat. Looks like I have the same type of container she did so we just cut a rectangle in the top and secured a screen over the hole with the lamp on the screen and a basking rock below the lamp. Still hasn't eaten, pet shop was out of earth worms and night crawlers [!?] Hopefully they will get more in this week. Slim pickings on leopard slugs and earthworms with this nasty weather.)
And I know Steve! I couldn't believe how curious and friendly they are. I've gotten a few disappointed, "oh" response when asked what type of snake I have. Psh, people don't know. I sure didn't!"

[snakemommy]

Got her some night crawlers and cut them up but they were still wriggling. She went to investigate and smelled them and hasn't touched them. :(

[guidofatherof5]

Patience, young keeper.;)

[snakemommy]

How long should I wait to try again? A week?

[guidofatherof5]

How long should I wait to try again? A week?

Maybe wait a few days. Worms are fairly inexpensive. Next time place the worms under the hide. Sometimes new snakes like to eat in privacy.

[gibble888]

My babies are the only ones that will eat while im there....for everyone else to fress i have to leave the room.

[ConcinusMan]

And I just wiggle my fingers and they all come rushing out toward my hand to see what's for dinner.:D Just the fact that your snake was interested enough to investigate is a very promising sign. I would be a bit discouraged only if he completely ignored your offering.

Don't worry, you'll get there. It's early. Like Steve said, be patient.

[ConcinusMan]

And I just wiggle my fingers and they all come rushing out toward my hand to see what's for dinner.:D

Watch:
http://youtu.be/R3FYedgf9y8

[Selkielass]

Looks like a possible Butler to me so shhhhhhhh!!!
I find Butlers easy to keep, but captive born babies haven't fared so well when sent to other parts of the us.

care us easy- follow the basic care sheet, but don't let your hot spot get over around 85 degrees.

hot spot should be up high, on a vine or branch. Overhead light and heat is best w this species.

Provide w a moist spaghnum filled hide- the smaller the snake the more it will rely on it to avoid dehydration.

feed small or cut up night crawlers, then branch out by mixing in other cut up foods. Mine relish rodent, live and fillet if safe fish, chopped giblets/ really just about everything. Smaller snakes benefit from feeding 2-3 small meals a week.

this species thrives in a slightly damp naturalistic habitat that mimics the wet woods they live in. Mine live in a nearly odor free bio active terrarium and are a blast to watch climbing and sunning themselves.

[Selkielass]

My habitat
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//796/thumbs/image24.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=12157&title=butlerii-2c-butlers-2c-bio-active&cat=796)
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//796/thumbs/image23.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=12156&title=image23&cat=796)

largest is Trax (in blue phase). Next is Cranky, still thriving, small two are topper, sibling to the little wigglers in my gallery and an unnamed rescue I found earlier this year w a wound near his vent. (He escaped and lived in the basement all summer- just lured him out and recaptured him with the cold weather.)

[ConcinusMan]

Looks like a possible Butler to me so shhhhhhhh!!!
I find Butlers easy to keep, but captive born babies haven't fared so well when sent to other parts of the us.

T. ordinoides is the same way. Seems like when they are sent to a dry climate people can't keep them alive. I think they keep them too warm and dry and humidity is too low. Most garters would do fine with this, but northwesterns are limited to their range for a reason. Cool to moderate summers, plentiful rainfall and moderate to high humidity. Worms and slugs are available nearly year 'round in this climate as well.

[Selkielass]

This is my best guess also- and the main reason I haven't picked up the ordinoides I've seen at reptile shows locally is that they looked identical to my Butlers, and I didn't want to risk accidental cross breeding.

i love the color variety you post tho- those red stripes are gorgeous!


Do you keep any of your ordinoides in naturalistic terrariums? My butlers have been thriving in the above enclosure for over a year now with nary a sign of scale rot. They are active, shed without problems, eat like gluttons- all despite humidity I know would give my checkered scale rot in no time at all.

Im setting up a little habitat for the red bellied snake I've mentioned previously- I think he'll love the moist environment, and the winter dryness in my house seems hard on him w paper substrate. This is again, a damp earth loving species. I'm afraid I'll never see him tho, his camouflage is so good!

[ConcinusMan]

This is my best guess also- and the main reason I haven't picked up the ordinoides I've seen at reptile shows locally is that they looked identical to my Butlers, and I didn't want to risk accidental cross breeding.

I know that it's impossible for ordies to crossbreed with most other garter species because of physical differences in their anatomy. With Butlers, I'm not sure because both physically and genetically, butlers are T. ordinodes' closest kin.



Do you keep any of your ordinoides in naturalistic terrariums?

Nearly all my snakes are in such a setup. The only exceptions are quarantined and brumating snakes, and of course, during the birthing season I keep litters in simple tubs with cardboard hides. I also keep enclosures simple when snakes are about to give birth or for pairs that are courting. The tub you saw them in was just for bringing them outside for photos. Other than that, all my snakes live in communal tanks of 2 or more individuals, usually in something roughly like this:

http://i44.tinypic.com/2eztzk2.jpg

[Selkielass]

I suspect Butlers, Ordonoides, and short headed garters would be capable of cross breeding if given the opportunity- but since butlers are threatened in parts of their range, and short heads are completely protected, I believe such mixing would be a Very BadThing.

Butlers are thriving in my area- I don't want to mess that up w accidental introduction of new genes.