Breeding before brumation?

[CrazyHedgehog]

OK, I have a trio of San Frans, and a teenage pair that have been in a separate smaller tank for over a year. (to grow on and also to quarantine)
both sets all calm, no problems. Looking at the health and sizes of my 'teenage' pair, I realize they are near enough adult size now and safe to add to my San Fran main tank.
I'm thinking as both sets are naturally slowing down and slowing on the amount eaten, it would be nice to brumate these together.....

BUT

I introduce the two sets and all hell breaks loose! my Sans Fransisco tank seems to have become a wild orgy! :eek:
Did the new blood line of Sans trigger things off?
so they seem a little calmer this evening, but, am I still ok to start brumating?

What do you guys think? does this happen in the wild? Any thoughts please?

[Stefan-A]

Based on my own limited observations and what I've heard from others, I'd guess that the change induced it. I used to set off both T. s. parietalis and Natrix maura males just by cleaning the enclosure. Others have reported that snakes that otherwise showed little interest in each other started mating during transportation.

Fall mating does occur.

[CrazyHedgehog]

thanks Stefan, in your opinion is it still safe/ advisable to start the brumation process?
(I was about to start fasting ready for brumation and then cool off in a few weeks?)

[Stefan-A]

I'm afraid I don't have enough information to have an opinion.

[gregmonsta]

Pre-brumation matings are quite common in the wild. Steven bol, amongst others has had no issues that I've heard of. I would proceed as planned really.

[CrazyHedgehog]

Thanks Greg!

[chris-uk]

Greg got there first...
Steve Bol reports that it is very common in his collection, specifically with the garters in T eques complex. He keeps his breeding pairs together year round and brumates them each year with no problems. You'll find more details on his website, IIRC it's on his pages about either Scotti or Obscurus.

[ConcinusMan]

ordies do it, and occasionally concinnus' too. usually during the cool down phase right before brumatiing. Whether they lock up or not you can just brumate them as planned. Gestation will likely begin when you bring them out. They can either hold the sperm and use it in the spring, or they can carry fertilized eggs through the winter and they begin developing when temps allow for it. You just shouldn't brumate partially through the gestation period, or after the embryos have begun to develop/grow.

This year I even saw fall concinnus mating activity in the wild for the first time, back in late Oct. I see ordies mating in late Oct every year but this was a first for concinnus outside of captivity.

In a bit I'll upload a video I shot in early Nov.. It's concinnus' trying to mate in their brumation bin, about a week after taking away their heat, but before being fully cooled.

[BUSHSNAKE]

fall breedings are very common in the wild and in captivity, ive seen it in many species northern and southern

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah it just seems like a distinct change in the season/temperature is enough to get some garters breeding whether the change is fall or spring. When Steve shipped my parietalis' they arrived very cold and when I warmed them up, the male tried to mate with everything, including the baby albinos and a baby radix. I think it was the cool down that triggered him. Took a few days for him to quit molesting the other snakes lol