piebald garter?

[drumcrush]

I never knew their was a piebald garter9778

[guidofatherof5]

Found a few things on the forum related to your thread.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/9396-piebald-garter-article.html
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/sale-trade-adoption/10901-adult-het-male-piebald-eastern-very-very-rare.html
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/sale-trade-adoption/12958-het-piebald-eastern-garter-adult-males-sale.html
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/7865-piebald-garter-snake.html
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/6947-piebald-garter.html
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/4149-het-piebald-easterns.html

[drumcrush]

Oh wow, very cool. Thanks !

[chris-uk]

My understanding is that the piebald line failed to prove out as a simple genetic trait, certainly nobody that bought into the F1 offspring is shouting about having proved the trait. What you may be finding now is some people who invested in the line are starting to offload their "investment".
Although the photo you posted is an old one.

I expect Richard will post shortly, he knows a lot more about the pied stuff than me.

[drumcrush]

My understanding is that the piebald line failed to prove out as a simple genetic trait, certainly nobody that bought into the F1 offspring is shouting about having proved the trait. What you may be finding now is some people who invested in the line are starting to offload their "investment".
Although the photo you posted is an old one.

I expect Richard will post shortly, he knows a lot more about the pied stuff than me.
Oh cool, alright. Thanks:p

[ConcinusMan]

certainly nobody that bought into the F1 offspring is shouting about having proved the trait.

Matter of fact, they recently were offering the F1's for sale (what does that tell you?) at $250 each. Why simply sell them off after all the effort and expense to get them and raise them up, if there's any remote chance they could produce pibalds? $250 is pretty darned expensive for an unremarkable normal eastern het for nothing wouldn't you say?


What you may be finding now is some people who invested in the line are starting to offload their "investment".

Buyer beware. It didn't prove out. Piebald garter / "het for piebald" doesn't exist. And the original WC in the pic died long ago. There was a rumor and even "reptile report" article that says it was proven out but that was a misunderstanding. Some people tend to count their chickens before they hatch and put them on a website price list before they even exist. That's what led to the misunderstanding.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I think it is time to put the pied thing to rest... they didn't prove out obviously, and selling them for anything more than the price of a normal garter would just be silly. I understand people don't want to lose out on the investments made, but, you win some you lose some. If they are sold it should be clearly noted in ads that the pied trait has not been proven out at all and that you are essentially buying a normal garter snake.

[ConcinusMan]

I think it is time to put the pied thing to rest... they didn't prove out obviously, and selling them for anything more than the price of a normal garter would just be silly. I understand people don't want to lose out on the investments made, but, you win some you lose some. If they are sold it should be clearly noted in ads that the pied trait has not been proven out at all and that you are essentially buying a normal garter snake.

I agree. It's just some people are really good at wording things intentionally (but without actually lying) in a way that you get the wrong impression. The ad clearly said these F1's were unproven. While that very well could be true, their siblings have been bred and it's proven that they are just normal easterns.

[Eddie]

I'm going to breed my F1's again this year. I can't give up after 1 try. The babies this year showed no signs of being pied and were all still born. I hope to at least get healthy babies this year!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Kudos to you Ed, for fighting the good fight and not giving up! Didn't you say, all else aside, they are really cool easterns on their own?

[ConcinusMan]

They are. Pretty decent looking.

[Eddie]

They really are great looking snakes! My female is an absolute beast. She never refuses a meal.

[chris-uk]

I'm going to breed my F1's again this year. I can't give up after 1 try. The babies this year showed no signs of being pied and were all still born. I hope to at least get healthy babies this year!

I wouldn't give up after one attempt either, but your pairing wasn't the only one that failed to produce any sign of a pied was it?


They really are great looking snakes! My female is an absolute beast. She never refuses a meal.

Cool looking Easterns, but assuming you don't get any pied in the litter next year, if you were to sell them I'm guessing you'd be selling them as normal Easterns and not perpetuating the belief that the pied parent had a heritable trait?

[Eddie]

I'm considered by most to be a stand up guy. I hope this answers what I think is a question.

[chris-uk]

I'm considered by most to be a stand up guy. I hope this answers what I think is a question.

Indeed.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

And if you get some live babies that look normal this year i would raise them up too! How do we know it's not like some of the other pied/calico morphs that are born normal and gain varying amounts of white as they grow? I know the chances are very slim, but it's possible! Nobody has produced live babies from the f1's yet! I still have high hopes that this pans out for the sake of the hobby and the breeders that invested so much money and time in this and for the record i don't think scott and jeff have give up either just didn't need so many males!
i'm going to breed my f1's again this year. I can't give up after 1 try. The babies this year showed no signs of being pied and were all still born. I hope to at least get healthy babies this year!

[annulataarethebest]

Dont know why anyone would give up if they already invested in the F1s... just keep the F2s breed them back to each other and back to the F1s. Honestly nobody should've expected piebald garters to be produced so soon.

[chris-uk]

Dont know why anyone would give up if they already invested in the F1s... just keep the F2s breed them back to each other and back to the F1s. Honestly nobody should've expected piebald garters to be produced so soon.

And if piebald is ever produced again it will be from a beautifully inbred line. Not for me thanks, I find pieds ugly.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

And that's how most morphs are reproduced! Once you line breed and reproduce these and get visuals then you can outcross, but unfortunately in order to reproduce some of these morphs they have to be line bred! I personally would love to work with some pieds! I mean don't get me wrong I love all the naturally produced color variations, but at the same time love to produce new stuff as well and I think some of the combo morphs produced with pieds would be awesome! Is the pied my favorite no, but I think for the sake of the hobby it would be awesome to reproduce them! As far as inbreeding goes look at the beautiful san frans if wasn't for inbreeding you probably wouldn't be able to have them! From what I've been told they are inbred more that marcianus was!
And if piebald is ever produced again it will be from a beautifully inbred line. Not for me thanks, I find pieds ugly.

[chris-uk]

And that's how most morphs are reproduced!

Yep.


Once you line breed and reproduce these and get visuals then you can outcross, but unfortunately in order to reproduce some of these morphs they have to be line bred!

Sure you can outcross, but that relies on breeders not wanting to cash in and produce as many visuals as possible while the price for the latest, greatest, newest morph stays high.


I personally would love to work with some pieds! I mean don't get me wrong I love all the naturally produced color variations, but at the same time love to produce new stuff as well and I think some of the combo morphs produced with pieds would be awesome! Is the pied my favorite no, but I think for the sake of the hobby it would be awesome to reproduce them!

Personally, I think pieds are pig ugly (but then I find snows hideous as well, melanistics are OK though) but beauty and the beholders eye and all that. I don't see how producing a pied garter benefits the hobby.


As far as inbreeding goes look at the beautiful san frans if wasn't for inbreeding you probably wouldn't be able to have them! From what I've been told they are inbred more that marcianus was!

Tetrataenia in Europe came from more than a single ancestor. Sure, there must be inbreeding as the history of many lines is muddy, but the population started from a reasonable sized breeding population rather than all of them being traced back to a single individual.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Well for starters any new morph benefits the hobby! Most breeders enjoy working with something new and it also adds value for breeders because every year most morphs will depreciate in value to some degree and to have something new to work with like the pied for instance adds so many possibilities for combo morphs which will increase the value of your animals! Also some people really like the pied gene! I vend a few shows and all of these people come up to me and say (nice garters) did you hear about the pied that was found and i'm like yeah that's neat, but take a look at some of these really nice garters I have that are already produced and they say those look awesome, but could you imagine the pieds! I guess what i'm trying to say is that it would benefit the hobby on the business end especially for the breeders! It would also be awesome just to have a pied flame for a pet in my opinion!