Difficulty passing slugs; When do I go to a vet?

[d_virginiana]

So I went in to check on everyone today, and Harley was passing slugs. I'm a little surprised since she passed one a couple weeks ago. But so far she's passed like six or seven, and there are at least two left. It's been over six hours... She's still making progress (usually a new slug whenever I go check) but it's going very slowly. It just seems like it's taking way longer than it should and she's struggling. How much of this is due to her young age (2 years)?
More importantly, when do I take her to a vet? I don't want to stress her out any more if things are going to be fine, but there's an all-night clinic if necessary.

[guidofatherof5]

I don't think it's time to panic. If you see progress I'd let she do her thing.

[d_virginiana]

I don't think it's time to panic. If you see progress I'd let she do her thing.

She started having trouble, so we took her to the vet. She got some reptile-specific subcutaneous fluids as well as a shot of oxytocin. She seems to feel better at least.

[guidofatherof5]

Glad she's getting some help.

[EKS56]

:(:confused:

Why would she be having slugs if she hasn't been bred?

[d_virginiana]

Glad she's getting some help.

The vet said that with slugs it isn't too strange to have them spread out over a span of a day or two, so I feel better now... I figured since I've never dealt with this before it'd be better to get help too soon than accidentally wait too late.

[ConcinusMan]

:(:confused:

Why would she be having slugs if she hasn't been bred?

Same reason birds occasionally lay infertile eggs. Because she ovulated but wasn't bred. :cool:

If she had encountered a male at the right time she would probably be having babies.

I thought you would have learned about the birds and the bees by now. :p

It's fairly common for female garters to do this at around 2 years old and a few times in their lives thereafter. Interestingly, some milk snakes will lay fertile eggs in the absence of a male, at around 6-7 yrs old. The babies will all be female and are genetically identical to the mother. (parthenogenesis)

[ConcinusMan]

The vet said that with slugs it isn't too strange to have them spread out over a span of a day or two, so I feel better now... I figured since I've never dealt with this before it'd be better to get help too soon than accidentally wait too late.

I just had a girl take a week to pass them. No biggie except one got stuck and is still there a month later. Now she's gone off food and will probably die of septicemia.

[gibble888]

Same reason birds occasionally lay infertile eggs. Because she ovulated but wasn't bred. :cool:

If she had encountered a male at the right time she would probably be having babies.

I thought you would have learned about the birds and the bees by now. :p

It's fairly common for female garters to do this at around 2 years old and a few times in their lives thereafter. Interestingly, some milk snakes will lay fertile eggs in the absence of a male, at around 6-7 yrs old. The babies will all be female and are genetically identical to the mother. (parthenogenesis)

That is so odd...i thought only worms could do that...along with others but not snakes.

[ConcinusMan]

Lots of reptiles and amphibians do it. ( I think with amphibians they can actually change their sex spontaneously) Even boa constrictors can have partho litters. There's one species of lizard (whiptail) I used to find in bakersfield, CA for which males do not even exist. They're all female and reproduce by parthenogenesis.

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4002/4691033085_0cf56e6d08_z.jpg

[d_virginiana]

There's one species of snake (Brahminy Blind Snake) that reproduces only through parthenogenesis. Every individual of the species is female and genetically identical to one another.


I just had a girl take a week to pass them. No biggie except one got stuck and is still there a month later. Now she's gone off food and will probably die of septicemia.

That sucks :( We have another appointment with the exotics vet for Friday if she hasn't passed the rest of them by then. I doubt we'll have to go to that one though, as she's still making progress passing them and only seems to have a couple left.

[ConcinusMan]

Well that's good. No need to worry too much unless progress stops, she goes off food, and there's still something in there a week or two later.

[guidofatherof5]

Lots of reptiles and amphibians do it. ( I think with amphibians they can actually change their sex spontaneously) Even boa constrictors can have partho litters. There's one species of lizard (whiptail) I used to find in bakersfield, CA for which males do not even exist. They're all female and reproduce by parthenogenesis.

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4002/4691033085_0cf56e6d08_z.jpg

Can you give me the particular species? and any links to that as I can't find anything about this all female group of Whiptails in CA. Thanks.

[ConcinusMan]

New Mexico whiptail - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cnemidophorus_neomexicanus)

[ConcinusMan]

Note that the populations in Bakersfield aren't necessarily just pure NM whiptails but there are several very similar species and/or all-female hybrid populations as well as some that reproduce sexually. Anytime I encountered whiptails in Bakersfield, no males were spotted. Just females, and yet in the spring they were very gravid. That's at a time of year when any other lizard species there can be observed engaged in mating activity. No such activity with the whiptails. They were already gravid!

[chris-uk]

The vet said that with slugs it isn't too strange to have them spread out over a span of a day or two, so I feel better now... I figured since I've never dealt with this before it'd be better to get help too soon than accidentally wait too late.

The female radix that I got last year threw slugs over a period lasting at least 6-8 weeks. And this year she's thrown a couple of odd slugs that were a couple of weeks apart.

[d_virginiana]

The female radix that I got last year threw slugs over a period lasting at least 6-8 weeks. And this year she's thrown a couple of odd slugs that were a couple of weeks apart.

The first one Harley had was about two weeks ago, but I actually thought that was going to be it. This time it's been several days, and she's been regularly passing clear fluid and the occasional slug the whole time. Her vet appointment is tomorrow... The vet recommended I bring her back in by Friday if she still hadn't passed the remaining two.

[EKS56]

I was just curious about the slug production. I had a thread earlier talking about not breeding an older female. This makes me wonder if not breeding could present it's own problems.

[guidofatherof5]

I was just curious about the slug production. I had a thread earlier talking about not breeding an older female. This makes me wonder if not breeding could present it's own problems.

Breeding or not it carries its own set of risks. I do think they were born to produce as many young in their lifetime as possible.
I think it is more natural for garters to be gravid every year then not.
I've held females back from breeding once in awhile thinking they need a break but I really don't know if I'm doing them a favor or not. :confused:

[EKS56]

I know it sounds selfish but I really enjoyed having my two Blacknecks in the same cage. I think they liked it too. I may put them back together again.

[d_virginiana]

I think part of Harley's problem is that her system may not have had time to fully bounce back from those parasites (the reason I couldn't breed her this year being she was still in quarantine). That and it's her first time having babies or slugs, so I'd expect either to be a bit difficult the first time around.
I was curious though; do unbred females generally throw slugs every season, or only occasionally?

I was under the impression that for very old females breeding them would put too much strain on their bodies? I don't know a lot about it, but I would think a wild snake would generally probably not live long enough for old age to become a factor in breeding. That female definitely shows her age; you can look at her and tell she's older.

That aside, Harley is going back to the vet in the morning to stay until she passes them all. They gave my husband oxytocin shots to give her at home, but he apparently can't do it without jerking the needle out when she twitches and nearly injecting me with it. I'd do it, but I wasn't able to be at the vet when they were showing him how, and my hands were shaking too badly anyway.

[guidofatherof5]

Harley is in our prayers.

[d_virginiana]

Harley is in our prayers.

Thanks.

The vet said if three doses of oxytocin over a span of two days don't work, they would have to consider surgery. Not sure what exactly that would entail or what the success rate would be. The good news is she's still well within the timeframe of being okay as far as sepsis is concerned, so it's not a race against time at this point.

[gibble888]

Good luck

[chris-uk]

How have the injections gone? Hopefully they've helped.

Interesting that the vet prescribed a course of oxytocin - a little more than a year ago my wife was on an oxytocin drip to try to persuade Joseph that he really should consider making an appearance. The endocrinology of snakes must be more comparable to our own - wish I had time to study reptile biology properly.

[d_virginiana]

How have the injections gone? Hopefully they've helped.

Interesting that the vet prescribed a course of oxytocin - a little more than a year ago my wife was on an oxytocin drip to try to persuade Joseph that he really should consider making an appearance. The endocrinology of snakes must be more comparable to our own - wish I had time to study reptile biology properly.

The injections didn't work (they did cause contractions, so the chemicals were having an effect though). She's at the vet to go into surgery first thing in the morning... They said it would be fairly straight forward and they expected a good outcome. They're going to call tomorrow morning after the surgery to tell me how it went.
Then she'll be staying overnight, and coming home on some antibiotics and painkillers.

[gibble888]

Fingers crossed

[chris-uk]

Fingers crossed and hoping for a good outcome.

[d_virginiana]

We got a call this morning saying that the surgery went well, and she was waking up. She should be coming home on antibiotics/painkillers tomorrow.

I guess the question now is: Do I breed her next season? The safest thing would be for her to have neither babies nor slugs, but I can't really predict whether or not she will have slugs if I don't breed her. If she does have babies, the vet has said that would be safer than another litter of slugs. I'm going to ask some more questions tomorrow regarding how the surgery might have affected her ability to have litters safely, but I'm leaning toward breeding her next year.

[guidofatherof5]

I think you are right to ask questions. That would be the advice I would follow.
They will know whether to reproductive system was compromised.

[the_edsta]

It's fairly common for female garters to do this at around 2 years old and a few times in their lives thereafter. Interestingly, some milk snakes will lay fertile eggs in the absence of a male, at around 6-7 yrs old. The babies will all be female and are genetically identical to the mother. (parthenogenesis) Thanks... I needed a new word! :-)

[ConcinusMan]

You'll need it. sooner or later you'll hear some reptile keeper talking about his "partho clutch" (or litter). Now you'll have a clue what that means.;) The cool thing is all the babies are identical to the mother right down their pattern and last spec of color. You won't find that in sexually produced offspring. Each are always different in some way, however slight. With parthos, if mom has some spot of slightly aberrant patterning or mark somewhere on her, all the babies will have the identical mark.

[the_edsta]

It will be good for that, yes, but I meant the word for its own sake. I am a writer... I'm sure I will use it in my work well before I hear it again elsewhere!

[ConcinusMan]

Some writer already beat you to it. First time I heard the word was in this song. Then it was covered in biology class the same year. http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/garter-snake-lounge/262-what-music-do-you-like-131.html#post251554

[the_edsta]

Nice! Cool song... so you're a first wave / new wave kind of guy? I figured you for grunge (didn't you used to have a cornell quote in your sig?). Fortunately, words are used, borrowed, and used again, so I can still find a spot for it!

[ConcinusMan]

Nice! Cool song... so you're a first wave / new wave kind of guy?

Yes. Given the choices of genre's and bands in the 1980's can you blame me?



I figured you for grunge (didn't you used to have a cornell quote in your sig?)

That too, but that didn't come along until my 20's (1990's)