death of my little girl

[Smalm]

I went in to feed my little girl Spike who was my first garter snake and she was so healthy the days before she died... Is there a list of things she could of died of... she died after being outside a few times... could she of caught something from the air? :( I only have a little kid of hers left and to make it worse my parents don't have the time today for me to buy another snake and we are in an area that has them in pet stores. :( Also what should I be aware of that her kid could catch and die from herself?

[d_virginiana]

Can you describe her setup? Temp, feeding, size of tank, ect. There's no reason being outside should have caused her death (I mean, they live outdoors...) unless she was crawling around somewhere that could have had pesticides or something.

I really recommend NOT buying garters from pet stores. There are plenty of breeders who will ship to you who know what they're doing. Petstores almost NEVER do, and you are likely to get a sick or unhealthy snake if you buy from a pet store. Garters are harder to keep healthy than most snakes, which is why you rarely see them in pet stores.

[Smalm]

Her habitat was about a constant 70 degrees and she had a water dish, upside down chipped, smooth small plant pot with a heating rock that I would wipe down with water every so often. I would wash the whole tank and the mat once a month. As for the water dish every other day. Fresh, cold water every day... I put a fish aquarium piece in there as well... Size of tank was medium... as for everything I regulated... she had kids in August.

[d_virginiana]

What were you feeding her?

70 is on the cold side. 75-80 is more appropriate. Also, heat rocks are dangerous. They can overheat and essentially cook snakes from the inside out; if you have one in the tank with the babies, take it out immediately. A heat lamp or heat pad is a better alternative.

[guidofatherof5]

I would agree with Lora on the temp. My warm side is 85°.
The problem with heat rocks is an old one and may have been remedied by new technology. I still wouldn't use them as in most setups the cord offers a escape avenue. Under tank heaters on a thermostat offer security and a much better degree of safety.
ZooMed makes good UTH and Hydrofarm offers the most economical thermostat on the market.

Amazon.com: Zoo Med ReptiTherm® Under Tank Heater, Small: Pet Supplies (http://www.amazon.com/Zoo-Med-ReptiTherm%C2%AE-Under-Heater/dp/B0002AQCKA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1379254455&sr=8-1&keywords=zoomed+heat+pad)
Amazon.com : Hydrofarm MTPRTC Digital Thermostat For Heat Mats : Plant Germination Heating Mats : Patio, Lawn & Garden (http://www.amazon.com/Hydrofarm-MTPRTC-Digital-Thermostat-Heat/dp/B000NZZG3S/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1372981504&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=hydrofarm+thermostat)

[gibble888]

I will second on the heat rock cord being an escape route....i had one get out that way....lucky for me when he got hungry i found him trying to get back in :)

[guidofatherof5]

I will second on the heat rock cord being an escape route....i had one get out that way....lucky for me when he got hungry i found him trying to get back in :)

I love it. Typical garter move. Led by the gut :D

[Jared]

I'm going with internal parasites as cause of death. Most garters are very adaptable to different environments, they are definitely a hardy species to keep. The only times I have had Garters die on me...every time it was due to feeding "big name" pet store feeder fish. After performing autopsies on them I realized that the lung cavities had parasitic worms in them. A telltale sign is one or more small "lumps" under the skin. Sometimes these lumps are barely visible. They don't look like blisters by any means just a small area usually only 2-3 scales worth which seem raised up ever so slightly. These are the tail ends of the parasitic worms. My snakes ate voraciously right up until the time of death, and at the time off death the bumps will be gone, as the worms move about, apparently to the lung to finish out the life cycle. I never feed with store bought feeder fish. Pinkies, earth worms, and non fatty pre frozen fish fillet ect.

[guidofatherof5]

I'm going with internal parasites as cause of death. Most garters are very adaptable to different environments, they are definitely a hardy species to keep. The only times I have had Garters die on me...every time it was due to feeding "big name" pet store feeder fish. After performing autopsies on them I realized that the lung cavities had parasitic worms in them. A telltale sign is one or more small "lumps" under the skin. Sometimes these lumps are barely visible. They don't look like blisters by any means just a small area usually only 2-3 scales worth which seem raised up ever so slightly. These are the tail ends of the parasitic worms. My snakes ate voraciously right up until the time of death, and at the time off death the bumps will be gone, as the worms move about, apparently to the lung to finish out the life cycle. I never feed with store bought feeder fish. Pinkies, earth worms, and non fatty pre frozen fish fillet ect.

Then what do you feed? or did I read something wrong.

[Jared]

Oh sorry about that, I see how that last part could be mis read haha. I feed with...Pinkies, earth worms, and non fatty pre frozen fish fillet. My Coast Garter actually is on fuzzies now, my Melanstic Seirra and SC garters are both on frozen/thawed fish fillet and the occasional slug or nightcrawler.

[guidofatherof5]

Oh sorry about that, I see how that last part could be mis read haha. I feed with...Pinkies, earth worms, and non fatty pre frozen fish fillet. My Coast Garter actually is on fuzzies now, my Melanstic Seirra and SC garters are both on frozen/thawed fish fillet and the occasional slug or nightcrawler.

Thanks for clarifying it for me.

[chris-uk]

Sorry to hear of your loss.

It's very difficult to know what a garter dies from, even a necropsy can be inconclusive. Also, your parents were quite sensible (whether intentionally or not) because if you're still trying to work out what killed your snake you shouldn't consider putting another one into the same tank. The tank should be deep cleaned, I'd be using kitchen cleaner, steam and lots of water to rinse.
It sounds like you should address some heating issues, the others have given good advice. Once you have sorted the environment you should be good to look for a new garter from a reliable breeder.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

your garters had flukes which if this ever happens again you can treat them with praziquantal!
I'm going with internal parasites as cause of death. Most garters are very adaptable to different environments, they are definitely a hardy species to keep. The only times I have had Garters die on me...every time it was due to feeding "big name" pet store feeder fish. After performing autopsies on them I realized that the lung cavities had parasitic worms in them. A telltale sign is one or more small "lumps" under the skin. Sometimes these lumps are barely visible. They don't look like blisters by any means just a small area usually only 2-3 scales worth which seem raised up ever so slightly. These are the tail ends of the parasitic worms. My snakes ate voraciously right up until the time of death, and at the time off death the bumps will be gone, as the worms move about, apparently to the lung to finish out the life cycle. I never feed with store bought feeder fish. Pinkies, earth worms, and non fatty pre frozen fish fillet ect.

[Mommy2many]

I am so sorry to hear of your loss. Sometimes things just happen, when all looks fine. Hopefully the little one is ok and you will have no issues with It's health. I have had seemingly healthy snakes die suddenly for no apparent reason. Their diet had remained consistent and the rest of my crew is fine. It is unfortunate that they cannot tell us/show us more signs than they do.

[ConcinusMan]

Her habitat was about a constant 70 degrees

Not appropriate. Most garters will eventually get R.I's like this. Proper digestion can't even occur if they can't warm up to at least the low 80's. They need a gradient. Cool end air temp of 70-75 and a localized spot on the other end in the mid to upper 80's. 70 is a good night time temperature but you simply cannot keep a garter healthy long term at 70 degrees. At least get an undertank heater under one end, place the water dish as far away from the heat as possible.

In this setup, one end was close to 90 F, the other end in the low 70's. That is what they need. The enclosure only dropped to 70 at night when the lights are off.

Naturalistic Garter Snake Vivariums - YouTube (http://youtu.be/S5tY5tGRvDI)


I'm going with internal parasites as cause of death.

Based on what evidence? parasites alone rarely kill garters. They merely act as health enforcers. A sick, injured or otherwise ill snake (from other reasons) can be done in by a heavy parasite load , however. A healthy snake won't be killed by parasites as a general rule. There are exceptions but in those cases you would normally have symptoms of illness before parasites kill them.


your garters had flukes which if this ever happens again you can treat them with praziquantal!

You don't know that and nothing we know has suggested that. How long have they been kept at 70? That alone will kill them. It just takes time. I have to say, at 70F most parasites garters get would even have a hard time thriving and reproducing.

It sounds to me like improper husbandry/innapropriate temperatures killed her. Correct that asap for any still alive.

http://www.thamnophis.com/index.php?page=caresheet

http://www.gartersnake.info/care/

http://www.albinogartersnake.com/care.html

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Hey richard read my post again! I'm simply replying to jared's post about some snakes he had in his post! I agree that smalm's snake could have died from the temps being to low, but it would have had to been low long term though. It could have been a number of things for that matter. The only parasite that i have seen take a snake out very quick is protozoa, nematodes and cestodes are usually not lethal in a healthy snake.

[ConcinusMan]

I agree. Protazoa can do a lot of permanent damage to the digestive system as well as cause blood loss (bloody runny stools) and secondary infection. nematodes can kill. Certain species can mature and burrow into the lungs and liver (or other vital organs) causing sudden death. This death could have been caused by that but that's just 1 possibility.

Liver flukes (trematodes) can cause liver damage over time. Like I said there are exceptions to the general rule that parasites alone don't kill otherwise healthy snakes. It's just far more common they they don't kill the host as the long as the host is otherwise healthy. They do put stress on the immune system in any case so if you combine that with improper temps/inability to thermoregulate...

[d_virginiana]

nematodes can kill. .

I almost lost one to nematodes early this year. She was healthy beforehand, but apparently it was an uncommon species usually found in mammals, so it took a long time to identify and treat the problem.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah and when they mature in the wrong host they usually just burrow their way out doing a lot of damage in the process.

[d_virginiana]

Yeah and when they mature in the wrong host they usually just burrow their way out doing a lot of damage in the process.

It took several months AFTER the three month treatment before she really got well. She's still not 100% back to normal yet, but I haven't noticed any signs of permanent damage.