Its oh so quiet Shh Shh

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Who hit that poor cobra in the face with a shovel!? :mad:

[tress29]

Who hit that poor cobra in the face with a shovel!? :mad:

Awe, don't diss on the hognose!

[ConcinusMan]

Youtube likes to call people names in their captcha's. I guess this one is for those people that spout "facts" in youtube comments, even though they don't know what the hell they're talking about.

http://i48.tinypic.com/2sadnyg.png

[Invisible Snake]

Youtube likes to call people names in their captcha's. I guess this one is for those people that spout "facts" in youtube comments, even though they don't know what the hell they're talking about.

http://i48.tinypic.com/2sadnyg.png



Lmfaoo

[ProXimuS]

Awesome lmao

[-MARWOLAETH-]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/jul/03/madagascar-snake-liophidium-pattoni

http://www.mrns.hu/userfiles/image/511_l_p.jpg
Liophidium pattoni

[guidofatherof5]

Text Marnie (EasternGirl) last night on Skype. She wanted me to say hello to everyone for her. She's been very busy with school and her nurse's practical. She hopes to drop in on the forum soon.

[ProXimuS]

New to Nature No 46: Liophidium pattoni | Science | The Observer (http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/jul/03/madagascar-snake-liophidium-pattoni)

http://www.mrns.hu/userfiles/image/511_l_p.jpg
Liophidium pattoni

What?!?! Is that real??

Edit: Googled it...I need one:)

[ConcinusMan]

I need one:)

... like you need a hole in your head.

And we're talking madagascar and all the animals there really need to be protected, not collected.

[CrazyHedgehog]

Sooo, been pigging out tonight (again) My kitchen was like a conveyer belt as I made pancakes for 6 people...
Pancakes with....
sliced banana, melted chocolate, desiccated coconut, ice cream, flaked almonds, soft brown sugar and fresh cream

- errrr diet next week....:D

[-MARWOLAETH-]

I tried making pancakes yesterday but the buggers kept sticking to the pan :(

[ConcinusMan]

Then they probably weren't ready to turn. Heck, if they're ready they should just slide right across the pan. I use a Teflon coated electric skillet sprayed with Pam. They slide right off nice and clean but only if they're ready to turn.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

...
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/signaturepics/sigpic20521_40.gif

[guidofatherof5]

Adds a whole new meaning to the phrase "at a snails pace"

[-MARWOLAETH-]

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg296/paulwiley/champipe.gif

[Ruth]

I have just come across an online pet site that sells and delivers animals including anacondas and crocodiles. Am I the only person that thinks this is madness ?

CROCODILIANS (http://www.ekmpowershop27.com/ekmps/shops/buriramphur/crocodilians-999-c.asp)

[-MARWOLAETH-]

I don't think there's anything wrong with it as annies are no more dangerous than a Cat and Crocodilians are under DWA so morrons can't get their hands on them.

[ChareiHeals]

holy moly, you can even buy super exotics. like birds of prey, deer, tigers, fennec foxes, etc... that's nuts.

[EasternGirl]

Hey everyone! Just wanted to let you guys know I'm still alive and I miss you all! Nursing clinicals are insane. I'm at school all the time and when I'm not there, I'm studying. But I am doing really well so far...we take two classes per semester and I got a 90 on my first exam in one class, and a 95 on my first exam in the other class. I start working at the hospital tomorrow. All the snakes are doing well and I just wanted to let you guys know that in Chinese Astrology....it is the....

8212 lol....Hope everyone is doing well!

[CrazyHedgehog]

wow, 90 and 95!!
well done!!

[Ruth]

I don't think there's anything wrong with it as annies are no more dangerous than a Cat and Crocodilians are under DWA so morrons can't get their hands on them.

I'm not worried about the danger side of things but the fact it makes it so easy to obtain these animals. If you look at the site very few even have details about the animals. I just think it makes it too easy and i can imagine the animals going to homes that are ill equipped to keep them.

[chris-uk]

I have just come across an online pet site that sells and delivers animals including anacondas and crocodiles. Am I the only person that thinks this is madness ?

CROCODILIANS (http://www.ekmpowershop27.com/ekmps/shops/buriramphur/crocodilians-999-c.asp)

I don't have a problem with the caiman, as William said they are covered by DWA (as are the cobras and rattlers).
I'd take more issue with the complete lack of information about any of the animals they have for sale.

[chris-uk]

I'm not worried about the danger side of things but the fact it makes it so easy to obtain these animals. If you look at the site very few even have details about the animals. I just think it makes it too easy and i can imagine the animals going to homes that are ill equipped to keep them.

If someone has a DWA licence that covers them to keep any of the dangerous species, then they don't need additional information about them (to get a DWA they will have been checked, including a visit from an authority appointed vet who checks the room and enclosure that they are going to be kept in).
The issue I have is that non-DWA animals are being sold without a lot of information.

[Ruth]

That's the exsact problem I have. I actually didn't realise that caimen were classed as dangerous animals which obviously is dozzy of me. I know the reptile shop I go to tends to try and judge their prospective customers and have refused to sell to quite a few. There is just no way of knowing what kind of person is buying them and next to no advice given. I've actually found this is really quite common and I just never knew it happened.

[chris-uk]

There are very few shops that would turn down a sale, unfortunately. In the current climate if someone is going to spend a hundred quid in a shop, I suspect they take the sale even if they aren't sure the snake will be looked after well, they'd probably think twice if they had reason to believe the snake would be mistreated.
And most reptile shops barely have the knowledge themselves to pass on to the buyers. The number that give bad advice about garters is appalling. Saying that, some are good, we have a good shop in Coventry where they know their stuff and give good advice. There's at least one other that is dreadful, and a new shop which seems okay but I've only been in once (and one of the owners described garters as a "more advanced snake" on the basis of its fish-based diet...).

[Invisible Snake]

8232

"Here's a good discussion for today. This fish was caught with a nerodia (water snake) in it's mouth. Would save the snake even if you're throwing the bass back in the water (surely the fish won't starve) or would you respect nature and let the fish have it's catch?"

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Did it survive?

[Ruth]

Today I'd save the snake, tomorrow who knows :)

[ConcinusMan]

8232

"Here's a good discussion for today. This fish was caught with a nerodia (water snake) in it's mouth. Would save the snake even if you're throwing the bass back in the water (surely the fish won't starve) or would you respect nature and let the fish have it's catch?"

Looks alive to me. Tough call. I'm torn. Are you sure it's a water snake? Kinda looks like a garter to me.

[Stefan-A]

I have a noninterference policy for such situations. It wouldn't be the first time I'd apply it, either.

However, I take issue with catch-and-release, so the snake has pretty good chances.

[Invisible Snake]

Did it survive?

Idk :/ it was a picture being shared on FB, here is the link https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=337134913059486&set=a.164224653683847.28354.164219437017702&type=1&theater

[guidofatherof5]

While checking out "The Reptile Report" I came across this article and had to post one of the photos from it.
The world needs to read this sign.

March in Georgia | The Reptile Report (http://thereptilereport.com/march-in-georgia/)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/sign1.jpg

[kimbosaur]

That reminds me of this one :):

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/53/126100611_f465010b1a.jpg
"SLOW. Snakes at play. Please do not run them over, scare, kidnap, or molest them!"

[snake man]

Do not see a video?

[Invisible Snake]

Do not see a video?

Can you see it now?


http://youtu.be/RQbH3fyGerE

[Chulio]

I would leave the snake where it is. It is a tough and complicated discussion though. I see animal shows where the interference is over the top. How about buying a live rat but killing it so it won't hurt the snake that is being fed because it may hurt or kill the snake. I often hear about how man is encroaching on animals environment which is true. Was man supposed to stay in one place and never expand. How about natural phenomena like an earthquake where floating debris brings a species that is not native to another area, and the people do a cleanup or kill the evasive species. Was it not going to happen?

My point is that it is a very complicated interwoven issue that can't be solved with one answer. I have always believed in balance but even that can get complicated. It usually comes down to how it works out for the people involved. I don't claim to have the answer's I just do what I can. I view nature any chance I get. I don't have any snakes in captivity but have had generations of garters on my properties and that is what brought me to this site.

[Stefan-A]

Yes, animal abuse is very funny.

[Stefan-A]

I often hear about how man is encroaching on animals environment which is true. Was man supposed to stay in one place and never expand.
Supposed to? No, there's no "supposed to" that can be applied. But fact of the matter is that we need to get the expansion and our use of resources under control for the our own sake and for the sake of the rest of the world. People also need to learn some damn humility and not think that they should be able to prance around in the woods in complete safety from the things that live there.

[Invisible Snake]

Yes, animal abuse is very funny.

Nooo that's not what i meant D: I was talking about the guys commentary

[Stefan-A]

Nooo that's not what i meant D: I was talking about the guys commentary
It was lacking in substance, repetitive and not fitting for this thread.

[Invisible Snake]

It was lacking in substance, repetitive and not fitting for this thread.

You're right, please move it to the It's oh so quiet Shh Shh thread

[chris-uk]

You can trace an awful lot of environmental problems to mans' overpopulation. You get the politicians talking about carbon, and "environmental groups" highlighting the symptoms, but they don't have the balls to discuss the root cause.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

I blame WKD and Strongbow...

[snake man]

saw this on youtube, not much I can say.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8q_m-rDUNw0

[Invisible Snake]

8233

"Philippine Red Spotted Tree Viper, Parias flavomaculatus, female"

[EasternGirl]

Love the new home page pic! Hope everyone is doing well...heard lots of places got snow. Still none here...just miserable cold and wind. Survived my first day of working with patients at the hospital...and the patients survived too!

[EasternGirl]

Oh and I love the new avatar, Invisible snake! Hey Steve...there is your girl in my new avatar!

[guidofatherof5]

She's growing and looking good.

[infernalis]

http://www.reptard.info/funny/brainfeed.gif

[Stefan-A]

http://www.reptard.info/funny/brainfeed.gif

What he's holding is called a book. It's a place where people hide things they want other people to find.

[ConcinusMan]

You can trace an awful lot of environmental problems to mans' overpopulation.

I think you have it backwards. There would be no "overpopulation" if it were not for the exploitation and consumption of resources (and I'm mainly talking about petroleum) that resulted in most of the environmental problems. The rapid increase in population over the last hundred years is not merely coincident with the rapid increase in oil production. It is the latter that has actually allowed (the word ’caused’ might be too strong) the former.


You get the politicians talking about carbon, and "environmental groups" highlighting the symptoms, but they don't have the balls to discuss the root cause.

I've seen plenty of lectures and discussions about the population problem. They are not referring to it as the root cause of our environmental problems because it isn't.

[Stefan-A]

I think you have it backwards. There would be no "overpopulation" if it were not for the exploitation and consumption of resources (and I'm mainly talking about petroleum) that resulted in most of the environmental problems.
And you can't have a population without exploitation and consumption of resources. I ignore petroleum, it's just one type of resource and if it weren't for carbon emissions and the occasional spill, it would be of little significance. The real problem related to overpopulation and resources, is land and water use. If you double the amount of people (like in the last 70 years or so), you double the area of land you need to house them and to grow crops and you double the need for fresh water for consumption and irrigation. Add technological advancement, increased standard of living and increased meat eating, and you've gone far, far beyond doubling the amount of land and water you're using.


The rapid increase in population over the last hundred years is not merely coincident with the rapid increase in oil production.
Actually, it is somewhat incidental. You're going to have to look to other factors, such as major advancements in medicine and agriculture (of which mechanization merely plays a part). Sure, oil production has also had a significant impact on trade and through that, population growth, but it's not as big a factor as some make it out to be.


It is the latter that has actually allowed (the word ’caused’ might be too strong) the former.
Contributed to it, not "allowed". There was never a glass ceiling caused by a lack of oil, there was only a bottleneck.


I've seen plenty of lectures and discussions about the population problem. They are not referring to it as the root cause of our environmental problems because it isn't.
They're not referring to it as the root cause, because they're not focusing on root causes. For example, Hans Rosling, whose lectures I bet you've seen, focuses mainly on trends in population growth, not on the consumption of resources that follows and the problems that follow. His specialty is statistics, not natural resource management, ecology or nature conservation. It is the root cause of our environmental problems, because populations always consume, regardless of their size.

[EasternGirl]

I think I'm dying...I got three hours of sleep last night and I'm so exhausted that I can barely hold my head up. I think I finally look my age and feel twice that.

[chris-uk]

I think you have it backwards. There would be no "overpopulation" if it were not for the exploitation and consumption of resources (and I'm mainly talking about petroleum) that resulted in most of the environmental problems.

Stefan has already voiced my thoughts in a far more eloquent way than I would have. I'm pretty sure that we don't have it backwards, oil isn't the limiting factor in population growth that's down to food/water supply and space. Humans have grown extremely effective at expanding both our food supply and the land we occupy. Of course one thing that has allowed us to do this so well is our use of fossil fuels as an energy source, but the use of oil has merely assisted the population boom.
Medicine and other advances that increase life-expectancy have the most to answer for, we're all living longer and lowering infant-mortality is heralded as a great thing, but when cultural change lags behind the advancements in medicine we see an increased population - often in regions where the environment could just about support the population with a high mortality rate.


increased meat eating
I believe it was a BBC documentary last year where they gave the land use figures for beef as it requiring something around eight times the land area to support a beef diet as opposed to a vegetarian diet. It's not enough to turn me veggie, but I eat less meat than most and I try to buy Scottish beef rather than cheap beef from places like Brazil (where the cattle farms are responsible for the loss of huge swathes of the Amazon), but if I was going to turn veggie this would be one of the main reasons.

[chris-uk]

I think I'm dying...I got three hours of sleep last night and I'm so exhausted that I can barely hold my head up. I think I finally look my age and feel twice that.

Hang in there Marnie. It's no worse than having a young child, and at least with your course there is light at the end of the tunnel - it won't last forever. You can sleep in the summer!

[Steveo]

I believe it was a BBC documentary last year where they gave the land use figures for beef as it requiring something around eight times the land area to support a beef diet as opposed to a vegetarian diet. It's not enough to turn me veggie, but I eat less meat than most and I try to buy Scottish beef rather than cheap beef from places like Brazil (where the cattle farms are responsible for the loss of huge swathes of the Amazon), but if I was going to turn veggie this would be one of the main reasons.

That sounds about right. Most of the endotherms raised for food turn grain into meat with about 10% efficiency (the rest goes to nonconsumable parts and heat generation). There's no questioning the nutritional value of meat, but a family of 5 on a meat-centric diet can indirectly consume enough grain to feed 100 people.

Fish is better, but top-level predators like salmon are still not very good because even when farmed, smaller fish must be caught and fed to them.

Years ago in my applied ecology course a case was made for eating reptiles, specifically iguana, because they're a much more efficient means of meat production. I know it's done in Central and South America, but I don't think anyone has tried to farm them yet. I'd be willing to try it if I could find some.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Probably inverts would be the way to go

[Stefan-A]

Probably inverts would be the way to go
Indeed it would. There's also the option of growing muscle tissue on a large scale.

[Steveo]

Indeed it would. There's also the option of growing muscle tissue on a large scale.

If we could get out poultry on an invert diet, that would help. In late summer I could swing a a net as I walk and catch thousands of grasshoppers per day. If chickens would eat them frozen/thawed(?), I could harvest hoppers a couple days a year and never have to buy chicken at the grocery store again.

(The reason I want to do falconry with a Kestrel is similar - even if we have a streak of bad luck, I could still feed her all the grasshoppers she could ever want, along with trapped house sparrows and starlings, and never have to risk giving her farm-raised feeder animals).

[Stefan-A]

If we could get out poultry on an invert diet, that would help. In late summer I could swing a a net as I walk and catch thousands of grasshoppers per day. If chickens would eat them frozen/thawed(?), I could harvest hoppers a couple days a year and never have to buy chicken at the grocery store again.
Well, it certainly can't be done full scale. The only thing that may withstand that level of harvesting would be plankton.

[Steveo]

Well, it certainly can't be done full scale. The only thing that may withstand that level of harvesting would be plankton.

Of course not, but just because we can't do it for all doesn't mean we shouldn't do it for any. The "one size fits all" monoculture system devised during the green revolution isn't sustainable. It's going to take a lot of different people utilizing a lot of different solutions to make a big difference. The greatest complication is that something like 75% of our agricultural products (U.S.) come from megafarms, where monoculture is the only game in town.

[ConcinusMan]

And you can't have a population without exploitation and consumption of resources.

That's not the point and as I predicted, it's the first thing you said.


I ignore petroleum, it's just one type of resource and if it weren't for carbon emissions and the occasional spill, it would be of little significance.

Yeah, ignore petroleum. Then you can go ahead and ignore the entire petrochemical industry (and every other industry that depends on petroleum which is pretty much all modern industries) and ignore all the pollution aside from carbon that comes from those industries. Ignore all the materials and technology we have that wouldn't be possible without petroleum. You can also ignore the fact that there are far more petroleum calories consumed to produce, package, and transport our food, than the food itself has. If it weren't for petroleum and all the technological advances that go with it, most of us would be farm laborers to survive. We wouldn't have the time or luxury of higher education, research and specialization. While we're at it, lets ignore advances in medicine that were also made possible by petroleum and the products and materials made from it. I could go on but I can't possibly list everything that depends on petroleum. Ignore it, and you ignore the industrial revolution and all the technological advances that came with it. Still think it has little significance? It's practically all the significance.



The real problem related to overpopulation and resources, is land and water use. If you double the amount of people (like in the last 70 years or so)

Now remind me again, how did the population double in 70 years instead of 7,000 years? Remind me again how long it took for the population to double before we started a petroleum fueled industrial/technological revolution? Since when is any kind of revolution "of little significance"? It's only the most significant thing to happen since language and the use of fire.



Add technological advancement, increased standard of living

Sure, we can add that. We only needed to add one thing to accomplish that: Petroleum. It sure as hell wasn't happening by cutting down trees with a copper hand axe and hauling it by horse and buggy.


but the use of oil has merely assisted the population boom.

Here you downplay the role that petroleum had in the population explosion then right away point at something else...


Medicine and other advances that increase life-expectancy have the most to answer for...

And I cut you off because here you say that this had more significance while completely ignoring the role that petroleum plays in those advances.


I believe it was a BBC documentary last year where they gave the land use figures for beef as it requiring something around eight times the land area to support a beef diet

And like Stefan, you downplay the role petroleum plays and the energy and technological advances needed to produce that beef. It takes far more petroleum calories to produce meat than it does to produce plant based food items. Screw the land area required. It would take 12 men laboring for an entire year, nonstop to equal the energy we get from just one gallon of gas and those men would be spending the majority of that energy working the land to produce the food they need to survive.

That leaves little time for advancement of technology and tech can only go so far using materials that don't come from petroleum. I think you're both dead wrong. It is the land area and water required to support our large population that has little significance because it would like have taken us perhaps thousands more millennia to run out of the land and water needed and many technological advances wouldn't have even been possible. You don't build a cart unless you first have a horse. As petroleum supplies run out the population will plummet. You can count on it.

[Stefan-A]

That's not the point and as I predicted, it's the first thing you said.
A mighty prophet you are. We're talking about overpopulation, what populations inherently do is very much the point.


Yeah, ignore petroleum. Then you can go ahead and ignore the entire petrochemical industry (and every other industry that depends on petroleum which is pretty much all modern industries) and ignore all the pollution aside from carbon that comes from those industries. Ignore all the materials and technology we have that wouldn't be possible without petroleum. You can also ignore the fact that there are far more petroleum calories consumed to produce, package, and transport our food, than the food itself has. If it weren't for petroleum and all the technological advances that go with it, most of us would be farm laborers to survive. We wouldn't have the time or luxury of higher education, research and specialization. While we're at it, lets ignore advances in medicine that were also made possible by petroleum and the products and materials made from it. I could go on but I can't possibly list everything that depends on petroleum. Ignore it, and you ignore the industrial revolution and all the technological advances that came with it. Still think it has little significance? It's practically all the significance.
1. I bet you've never heard about a little thing called "coal". The industrial revolution started with coal, not petroleum. Petroleum arrives at the scene about 100-150 years late for the industrial revolution. Or to put into perspective: We had electricity before petroleum became useful as anything other than lamp fuel.
2. The other pollution aside from carbon is, as I already told you, of little significance. Yeah, it's not good, but the impact it has on the environment is not significant by comparison.
3. You're boring the crap out of me with these irrelevancies.


Now remind me again, how did the population double in 70 years instead of 7,000 years? Remind me again how long it took for the population to double before we started a petroleum fueled industrial/technological revolution? Since when is any kind of revolution "of little significance"? It's only the most significant thing to happen since language and the use of fire.
Well, when a male and a female like each other very much... You clearly don't know what the industrial revolution was, do you really think this deserves an answer?


Sure, we can add that. We only needed to add one thing to accomplish that: Petroleum. It sure as hell wasn't happening by cutting down trees with a copper hand axe and hauling it by horse and buggy.
Coal, electricity.


Here you downplay the role that petroleum had in the population explosion then right away point at something else...
You exaggerated the role it played.


And I cut you off because here you say that this had more significance while completely ignoring the role that petroleum plays in those advances.
Because you exaggerated the role it played.


It is the land area and water required to support our large population that has little significance because it would like have taken us perhaps thousands more millennia to run out of the land and water needed and many technological advances wouldn't have even been possible.
I don't which is more absurd, the claim at the beginning, or the conclusion. Whether it takes 5 years or 5 billion doesn't change the fact that it's the population size and its consumption and use of land and water that's the problem. It doesn't matter if this planet can sustain 10 or 10 billion, if we exceed what it can sustain, you have overpopulation.


You don't build a cart unless you first have a horse.
Why not? What you don't do, is have the cart draw the horse.


As petroleum supplies run out the population will plummet. You can count on it.
A laughable claim. It's not the only fuel, it's not the only material.

[chris-uk]

Yeah, ignore petroleum.
...Ignore it, and you ignore the industrial revolution and all the technological advances that came with it.

Sorry to sound like a parrot, but I don't recall oil driving the industrial revolution. That was coal. We moved on to use oil-based fuels when we worked out how to harness their energy. If oil hadn't been abundant we would have progressed using another fuel - hell, in a parallel universe maybe we jumped straight from coal to solar, wind and hydro power.


And like Stefan, you downplay the role petroleum plays and the energy and technological advances needed to produce that beef. It takes far more petroleum calories to produce meat than it does to produce plant based food items. Screw the land area required. It would take 12 men laboring for an entire year, nonstop to equal the energy we get from just one gallon of gas and those men would be spending the majority of that energy working the land to produce the food they need to survive.

And like, erm... you. You big up petroleum as a cause of overpopulation instead of a consequence of it.
I picture the scene in Victorian England...
"Hey honey, I've just been reading about this new fangled oil stuff."
"Yes love, what does it do?"
"Well honey, it means that we can have a bigger family to make sure mankind fully exploits this wonder fuel."
"Really love? I thought we were already spitting out a baby every year, because only half of them survive past their third year."
"Well, you know what honey, I think we should try harder and spit one out every six months."

Need drives innovation. The fact that a single man in a tractor (with his gallon of petrol) can farm huge areas isn't what drove population growth, the population grew and we needed to find more efficient means to support the populations. One way of introducing the efficiency is to use oil powered vehicles to farm.


I think you're both dead wrong. It is the land area and water required to support our large population that has little significance because it would like have taken us perhaps thousands more millennia to run out of the land and water needed and many technological advances wouldn't have even been possible.

If we ran out of oil tomorrow the population wouldn't decline as quickly as it would if we the planet's drinking water dried up. That alone makes access to water more significant than oil - there are alternatives to oil, and no alternative to water if you're attempting to sustain life. I don't know how much alternative energy is available in the US (you've grown accustomed to cheap and plentiful oil), but in Europe where our oil will run out sooner there are huge attempts to harness other sources of power, when the oil runs out there are alternatives.
Within our lifetime the most recent wars are over access to oil, throwing on my prophetic hat I'd suggest that our children or grandchildren will see wars fought over fresh water supplies.

[ConcinusMan]

I really should have been saying "fossil fuels" all along instead of petroleum. Coal is a horrible alternative. Can't even catch a fish that isn't laden with mercury because of it's use.


Sorry to sound like a parrot, but I don't recall oil driving the industrial revolution. That was coal. We moved on to use oil-based fuels when we worked out how to harness their energy. If oil hadn't been abundant we would have progressed using another fuel - hell, in a parallel universe maybe we jumped straight from coal to solar, wind and hydro power.

Impossible. You can't make a solar panel, or even a wind turbine without the technologies, manufacturing processes and materials that come from petroleum. Hydropower can only fuel a vehicle if the vehicle is electric. Nevermind the fact that you can't even manufacture that vehicle without petroleum. Most of our paved roads are also made with petroleum products.


there are alternatives to oil, and no alternative to water if you're attempting to sustain life. I don't know how much alternative energy is available in the US (you've grown accustomed to cheap and plentiful oil), but in Europe where our oil will run out sooner there are huge attempts to harness other sources of power, when the oil runs out there are alternatives.

There are alternatives. Most of which require the use of petroleum to implement. When the oil runs out, there are alternatives. Most of which cannot be harnessed if you don't use oil to make the necessary materials to harness the alternative sources. Nevermind that almost none of the alternatives give us same energy returned to energy invested as petroleum does.

Look, you guys make some great points but just try to see that all these alternatives you're talking about cannot even come about without investing petroleum or using materials and technologies made possible only by the use of petroleum.

[Stefan-A]

Impossible. You can't make a solar panel, or even a wind turbine without the technologies, manufacturing processes and materials that come from petroleum.
Panels aren't the only way to get solar energy and I seriously doubt anyone has even set out to make wind turbines without involving petroleum, so that assertion is premature in addition to being pointless. Also, people have already developed other ways of making plastics and are continuing to do so and the manufacturing processes require electricity, which is produced with coal, nuclear power, natural gas etc.


Hydropower can only fuel a vehicle if the vehicle is electric. Nevermind the fact that you can't even manufacture that vehicle without petroleum. Most of our paved roads are also made with petroleum products.
Same reply as above, nobody has tried and the assertion is premature and pointless. Also, funny how we manufactured vehicles before we started using petroleum to run them.


There are alternatives. Most of which require the use of petroleum to implement. When the oil runs out, there are alternatives. Most of which cannot be harnessed if you don't use oil to make the necessary materials to harness the alternative sources. Nevermind that almost none of the alternatives give us same energy returned to energy invested as petroleum does.
Same basic answer as before.


Look, you guys make some great points but just try to see that all these alternatives you're talking about cannot even come about without investing petroleum or using materials and technologies made possible only by the use of petroleum.
Same as above. People are already working on this problem. They have been for decades at this point (at least since the 70's oil crisis, if you don't count wartime efforts), they already have come up with a bunch of solutions, both functional and prospective to a number of problems and the main problem for now is how competitive they are and that's something that will change as the price of oil goes up.

Everything will be fine.

[ConcinusMan]

Everything will be fine.

Everything isn't even fine now and in fact seems to be deteriorating. All the classic symptoms (and causes) of imminent civilization collapse are here. The Romans ignored the signs too, and I'm sure they also said "everything will be fine":rolleyes:

[Stefan-A]

Everything isn't even fine now and in fact seems to be deteriorating. All the classic symptoms (and causes) of imminent civilization collapse are here. The Romans ignored the signs too, and I'm sure they also said "everything will be fine":rolleyes:
Which classic symptoms would that be? Goths coming over the city walls and setting stuff on fire? :rolleyes:

[Stefan-A]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDBkeYSxPtY

[ConcinusMan]

Which classic symptoms would that be? Goths coming over the city walls and setting stuff on fire? :rolleyes:

No, but that will happen soon enough.

As if that were the sole reason behind the collapse. No. signs of collapse were happening long before that. "goths" don't "come over the walls" until a civilization is already in the process of collapse.

Debasing of currency / economic instability: An economic engine that requires constant growth that cannot be sustained. Currently ours (and when I say "ours" I don't just mean the U.S.) is severely unstable and depends on cheap petroleum to thrive. As the price rises, so does the price of everything else. Growing disparity between the rich and the poor, elimination of the middle class.

For the modern world economy, for example, the growing conflict between food and fuel, depending on many of the same finite and diminishing resources is visible in the recent major commodity price shocks.

Capitalism can be seen as an example of the 'Runaway Train' model: a society whose continuing function depends on constant growth (cf. Frederick Jackson Turner's Frontier Thesis): This type of society, based almost exclusively on acquisition (e.g., pillage or exploitation), cannot be sustained indefinitely. The Assyrian and Mongol Empires, for example, both fractured and collapsed when no new conquests were forthcoming.

Environmental problems / changing of climate. These problems are rapidly getting worse. Much faster than the "solutions" are forthcoming.

Overpopulation and resource depletion.

Declining productivity of energy extraction, or energy return on energy invested which is estimated to be 3:1 to sustain the essential overhead energy costs of a modern society. This figure also affects the number of people needed for sustainable food production. In the pre-modern world, it was often the case that 80% of the population was employed in agriculture to feed a population of 100%, with a low energy budget. In modern times, the use of cheap fossil fuels with an exceedingly high EROEI enabled 100% of the population to be fed with only 4% of the population employed in agriculture.

The British historian Arnold J. Toynbee, in his 12-volume magnum opus A Study of History (1961), theorized that all civilizations pass through several distinct stages: genesis, growth, time of troubles, universal state, and disintegration. It's obvious to mem that we have entered the "time of troubles" stage.

Toynbee argues that the breakdown of civilizations is not caused by loss of control over the environment, over the human environment, or attacks from outside. Rather, ironically, societies that develop great expertise in problem solving become incapable of solving new problems by overdeveloping their structures for solving old ones.

Now, if you can't see that all these signs / symptoms of collapse are upon us, then I don't know what to say. For being such an intelligent person, you seem to be a little out of touch or isolated from what's going on in the world Stefan. I don't mean that as insult but you seem a little sheltered. Either that, or in denial or just don't care enough to even want to know so you don't pay any attention. I say this because if that were not the case, you wouldn't have asked me "what signs". To me they are glaring and obvious. You can't not notice unless you just never turn on the news.

Now, what makes this day and age different is that whether you define it as one or not, we do have a global civilization now, all interdependent on each other, so the collapse this time, will also be global. Not just the failure of one or two countries, currencies, or economies with the rest of us being OK.

I have been watching the TED talks. Many are on netflix and I also watch them through a smart TV app. Good stuff.

[guidofatherof5]

I've heard this saying so many times "There are no stupid questions"
Well, I think I've come up with one.

As I walked by the T.ordinoides (Northwestern Garter Snake) paddock I looked in and asked
"Anybody hungry?":D

[Stefan-A]

Debas
Random copypasta from wikipedia with no actual explanation for how all this connects to the current situation. Don't take it personally if I don't consider it worth my time to respond.


Now, if you can't see that all these signs / symptoms of collapse are upon us, then I don't know what to say. For being such an intelligent person, you seem to be a little out of touch or isolated from what's going on in the world Stefan. I don't mean that as insult but you seem a little sheltered. Either that, or in denial or just don't care enough to even want to know so you don't pay any attention. I say this because if that were not the case, you wouldn't have asked me "what signs". To me they are glaring and obvious. You can't not notice unless you just never turn on the news.
Your problem is that you treat every little hypothesis as prophecy.

Also: Confirmation bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias)

[Mommy2many]

I've heard this saying so many times "There are no stupid questions"
Well, I think I've come up with one.

As I walked by the T.ordinoides (Northwestern Garter Snake) paddock I looked in and asked
"Anybody hungry?":D


You tried, Steve. A valiant effort on your part...

[ConcinusMan]

Your problem is that you treat every little hypothesis as prophecy.

Nope. Just forget about hypothesis. Only look at what's not hypothesis and the largely predictable outcome is still the same. Doesn't take a genius to figure it out. If a train is doing 75kph headed straight for a brick wall, and you predict that it's going to crash, that is not prophecy. You abuse the word. Not that it matters all that much. You and I will both likely be dead before the worst of it happens. Perhaps it will happen gradually rather than suddenly. I understand your responses though. It's just easier to shut your eyes and say "this isn't happening". Most people do. It's in their nature.


Forget about prophecy. The things I said were never about prophecy in the first place. It was about what's actually happening. As in , now. not later. But everything is fine. Ignore this. The scientists are obviously a bunch of quacks. :rolleyes: Apocalypse Soon: Has Civilization Passed the Environmental Point of No Return?: Scientific American


(http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=apocalypse-soon-has-civilization-passed-the-environmental-point-of-no-return)

[Stefan-A]

I already told you once, you are treating it as prophecy. You're treating the opinions in that article as prophecy as well. Have you read any responses to the ideas put forth in it? And I don't mean comments on the article page.

[ConcinusMan]

Have you read any responses to the ideas put forth in it? And I don't mean comments on the article page.

If you don't mean the comments then I'm not sure I know what you're referring to.

[chris-uk]

If you don't mean the comments then I'm not sure I know what you're referring to.
From the "Appocolyse soon" article:
"In Limits to Growth, a bitterly disputed 1972 book that explicated these findings... "

[Invisible Snake]

8261

[guidofatherof5]

I'm at a loss to know what to say.:D

[ConcinusMan]

From the "Appocolyse soon" article:
"In Limits to Growth, a bitterly disputed 1972 book that explicated these findings... "

I seriously doubt that's what Stefan was talking about and if it is, you both missed the point entirely. I don't give a damn what that outdated book said or what was disputed. I don't care what the new book they talk about says either. Sorry I ever posted the link.

You want to debate what will or will not happen but you can't debate the data of what is happening or has happened already. Instead of talking about that you're just wearing me down with this "oh, look over there, a squirrel" crap.

"Whereas in 1972 humans were using 85 percent of the regenerative capacity of the biosphere to support economic activities such as growing food, producing goods and assimilating pollutants, the figure is now at 150 percent—and growing." There is also rapid global climate change and mass extinction happening. And if you know anything about the global economy you should also know that it requires a constant growth rate (which cannot be sustained) or it collapses like a pyramid scheme. Now ask yourself, what happens when it does collapse? We don't have to predict. We've already seen what happens.

Now dispute that. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure what happens when a population outgrows the environment's capacity to support it. Also isn't hard to figure out what happens to those at the top of the food chain when a mass extinction takes place. I honestly don't even know why there's even a debate about it. The conclusion is quite logical and you're all just in denial.

The things that hold together the thin facade of what we call civilization are deteriorating rapidly. It's a fragile thing. Doesn't take much to collapse it. You can debate it all you want but it doesn't change that. It's a fragile balancing act. If you doubt it could happen that's only natural but there are plenty of ruins around the world left over from long gone civilizations that debated and doubted too, all the way up until they were gone.

[Stefan-A]

I seriously doubt that's what Stefan was talking about and if it is, you both missed the point entirely. I don't give a damn what that outdated book said or what was disputed. I don't care what the new book they talk about says either. Sorry I ever posted the link.
I'm in the middle of a Star Trek episode, where Spock's brain gets stolen. Just thought I'd share.


You want to debate what will or will not happen but you can't debate the data of what is happening or has happened already.
The data is somewhat less important than how it's used and what conclusions can be drawn from it.


Instead of talking about that you're just wearing me down with this "oh, look over there, a squirrel" crap.
Psychological projection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection)

Oh, look over there, a squirrel.


"Whereas in 1972 humans were using 85 percent of the regenerative capacity of the biosphere to support economic activities such as growing food, producing goods and assimilating pollutants, the figure is now at 150 percent—and growing." There is also rapid global climate change and mass extinction happening. And if you know anything about the global economy you should also know that it requires a constant growth rate (which cannot be sustained) or it collapses like a pyramid scheme. Now ask yourself, what happens when it does collapse? We don't have to predict. We've already seen what happens.
From which you still need to get to the collapse of civilization somehow. Economies fail, civilizations go on.


Now dispute that.
Just poked a hole in it with a wet napkin.


It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure what happens when a population outgrows the environment's capacity to support it.
No, a rocket scientist would be far out of his field if he started commenting on ecology. Economists, too. Anthropologists may have something to contribute to the discussion, though.


Also isn't hard to figure out what happens to those at the top of the food chain when a mass extinction takes place.
Lots of things can happen. Besides, nothing that has ever been at the top of the food chain has been as adaptive as we happen to be. We'll die out when we've eaten all the cockroaches and everybody gets TSE from cannibalism. Or when a group of people isolate themselves from the rest of the world population and evolve into a subspecies of H. sapiens that has superior survivability under the prevailing conditions and simply out-competes us.


I honestly don't even know why there's even a debate about it. The conclusion is quite logical.
Not all forms of logic apply to all situations.

[chris-uk]

I seriously doubt that's what Stefan was talking about and if it is, you both missed the point entirely. I don't give a damn what that outdated book said or what was disputed. I don't care what the new book they talk about says either. Sorry I ever posted the link.

The foundation of the article was that outdated book and the research that led to it's publication. If the foundations of the article weren't sound then it compromises the conclusions. The computer model that the article discussed was run in the 1970's, I don't have to dig too deeply to come to the conclusion that the computer model probably wasn't particularly sophisticated, considered a fairly small number of variables, and therefore the outcomes it predicted are slightly unreliable.


"Whereas in 1972 humans were using 85 percent of the regenerative capacity of the biosphere to support economic activities such as growing food, producing goods and assimilating pollutants, the figure is now at 150 percent—and growing." There is also rapid global climate change and mass extinction happening. And if you know anything about the global economy you should also know that it requires a constant growth rate (which cannot be sustained) or it collapses like a pyramid scheme. Now ask yourself, what happens when it does collapse? We don't have to predict. We've already seen what happens.

Now dispute that. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure what happens when a population outgrows the environment's capacity to support it. Also isn't hard to figure out what happens to those at the top of the food chain when a mass extinction takes place. I honestly don't even know why there's even a debate about it. The conclusion is quite logical and you're all just in denial.

The things that hold together the thin facade of what we call civilization are deteriorating rapidly. It's a fragile thing. Doesn't take much to collapse it. You can debate it all you want but it doesn't change that. It's a fragile balancing act. If you doubt it could happen that's only natural but there are plenty of ruins around the world left over from long gone civilizations that debated and doubted too, all the way up until they were gone.

The debate started as a discussion about overpopulation and drifted into economics and the consequent collapse of civilisation. Civilisation won't fall, it will alter. Maybe it will become a smaller and more exclusive civilisation where a privileged class/race live comfortably whilst suppressing the rest of humanity - take your pick of post-apocalyptic films for a portent of the future. ;)

I wouldn't dispute that the world I'll die in and my children and grandchildren will grow up in will be more unstable and more delicately balanced than it is now. Remember right back at the start of this discussion I predicted that within 50 years there will be wars over water rather than oil? My issue was with oil/fossil fuels being the limiting factor for human population growth, I think it's water and food. As for the collapse of civilisation, as long as my descendants are living in Megacity1 and not in the Badlands I don't really care.

[Stefan-A]

Interestingly quiet on the forum lately.

[guidofatherof5]

Walking Dead withdrawals:D

[ConcinusMan]

Remember right back at the start of this discussion I predicted that within 50 years there will be wars over water rather than oil?

Oh so now you're a prophet. No, I'm just razzin you :p Sure, I don't doubt that will happen. But first we fight over the remaining oil. We've already been fighting over oil and I'm sure it will get worse as supply dwindles. If we're not already fighting over water than apparently there's enough because the population is leveling out or at least, growth has slowed considerably.


My issue was with oil/fossil fuels being the limiting factor for human population growth, I think it's water and food.

Right. And what is a major factor in limiting food supply per capita? Fossil fuel supply, primarily petroleum. There are somewhere around 12 petroleum calories used in food production/packaging for each food calorie we eat and that's what has allowed all this food production! Take away the petro, the food goes with it. If oil ran out right now, billions would starve. That's not science fiction. Not to mention that dwindling supplies of fossil fuel resources also greatly limits our ability to efficiently utilize what water is left. In fact it greatly limits our ability to use technology/industrial processes to do anything that will allow us to utilize other resources. Food production per capita is already dropping right on cue with petroleum production. people will argue that they are developing other alternative energy. Yes, they are, but they're not even close to coming up with a viable solution that will replace the amount of energy we get from fossil fuels and use daily. And even if they had the tech now, the infrastructure isn't there and it will still take a huge investment of the remaining fuel/petroleum to build it.


I wouldn't dispute that the world I'll die in and my children and grandchildren will grow up in will be more unstable and more delicately balanced than it is now.

Then why is total collapse into a "new dark age" and massive die-off of human population so inconceivable? (that's what I'm saying is coming and so are many scientists) Is it because people who deny it can happen are just arrogant ("it's always happened to other civilizations, but it won't happen to ours" mentality) or because they ignore the signposts that are already with us? Scientist are saying that's already too late to alter the course and that we are headed for disaster. The nay-sayers also denied global warming and climate change for years, but low and behold, it's here and will continue to get worse even if we stopped emitting atmospheric carbon entirely right now. (and we know that's not going to happen)

Whatever, I'm just saying that I believe collapse going to happen because we're currently in an artificially high population bubble supported by fossil fuel use, and there's science to back up that idea so that it's completely in the realm of possibility. The bubble will burst. I think it's more likely than not. All one has to do is take a good look around. Several billion people alive today wouldn't even be here if it weren't for petroleum and they can't be supported when it runs out. Supply does limit the human population. In our modern civilization/society virtually everything we know is dependent on cheap petroleum and supplies have peaked so there's nowhere for civilization and population to go but down.

If we stopped using petroleum right now, a billion or two people would starve so how you can you say it's not a limiting factor? If that limit wasn't there, then yeah, we'd have to deal with not enough space and water. All these problems for which we have no solution, will lead to a civilization collapse and we are seeing early indications IMO. That's all I'm trying to say though this whole debate and you guys act like it's some crazy idea that can't possibly happen because there's no science behind it. Well there is. Human beings are not immune to natural laws and in the end, that's what's going to get us. I hope I'm totally wrong but I'm not very optimistic that some unexpected miracle is going to alter the course. I feel like you guys are just trying rationalize it away so you don't have to think about it.

[ConcinusMan]

Walking Dead withdrawals:D

You could always drive nails through your neighbor's heads, making them walk around moaning and drooling. :p

I know, that was dark. http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/trollface/devil-troll-smiley-emoticon.png

[Stefan-A]

And what is a major factor in limiting food supply per capita? Fossil fuel supply, primarily petroleum.
It's not.


There are somewhere around 12 petroleum calories used in food production/packaging for each food calorie we eat and that's what has allowed all this food production!
You just don't get it. It's not the only fuel and it's not the only material. Petroleum use does not "allow" food production, it's a preferred method used in food production.


Take away the petro, the food goes with it.
It does not.


If oil ran out right now, billions would starve.
No, they would not.


That's not science fiction.
No, it's just plain fiction.


Not to mention that dwindling supplies of fossil fuel resources also greatly limits our ability to efficiently utilize what water is left. In fact it greatly limits our ability to use technology/industrial processes to do anything that will allow us to utilize other resources.
Again we're talking about preferred vs. essential energy sources. You're claiming the latter, but reality says that it's the former.


Food production per capita is already dropping right on cue with petroleum production.
OMFG THE SKY IS FALLING


people will argue that they are developing other alternative energy.
"Developing", as in we had it before petroleum, it's implemented right now and the use is rapidly increasing.


Yes, they are, but they're not even close to coming up with a viable solution that will replace the amount of energy we get from fossil fuels and use daily.
There are plenty of viable solutions, and again we're talking about preferred vs. essential.


And even if they had the tech now, the infrastructure isn't there and it will still take a huge investment of the remaining fuel/petroleum to build it.
They do, it's there and it's getting better. And huge investments is what you get when you put all your eggs in one basket and drop it, but it's not a civilization-ending investment.


Then why is total collapse into a "new dark age" and massive die-off of human population so inconceivable?
Conceivable doesn't equal probable. I can conceive of billions of carnivorous fire-breathing monkeys flying out of my *** and eating everyone, but it's not likely to happen.


(that's what I'm saying is coming and so are many scientists)
How many percent of scientists are saying it? "Many scientists" conveys no information of value.


Is it because people who deny it can happen
Again, flying monkeys, probable vs. possible and all that stuff.


or because they ignore the signposts
You are declaring it a signpost, without proper cause.


Scientist are saying that's already too late to alter the course and that we are headed for disaster.
Who, on what grounds, what are the responses from other scientists within the field, what's the consensus? And so forth. People will believe anything as long as it's said by someone in a lab coat, apparently.


The nay-sayers also denied global warming and climate change for years, but low and behold, it's here and will continue to get worse even if we stopped emitting atmospheric carbon entirely right now. (and we know that's not going to happen)
That's an opinion that's as (un-)supported as the one that this is actually a carbon-starved planet.


Whatever, I'm just saying that I believe
Belief noted.


there's science to back up that idea
Is that science any good, or are you just fond of the conclusion?


All one has to do is take a good look around.
No, sorry. Looking around isn't good enough.


Several billion people alive today wouldn't even be here if it weren't for petroleum and they can't be supported when it runs out.
You keep saying that, and it's false.


In our modern civilization/society virtually everything we know is dependent on cheap petroleum
Because that's how we've preferred it. It's not essential to have it dependent on cheap petroleum.


and supplies have peaked so there's nowhere for civilization and population to go but down.
You keep saying that, and it's false.


If we stopped using petroleum right now, a billion or two people would starve
A billion or two are already starving.


so how you can you say it's not a limiting factor?
You made up the fact that it is necessarily a limiting factor and you're referencing your own made up fact to support your argument. That's a bit of a no-no.


If that limit wasn't there, then yeah, we'd have to deal with not enough space and water.
Good news, everyone!


All these problems for which we have no solution,
We have dozens of solutions for the problems, denying them isn't going to make them not-exist.


will lead to a civilization collapse and we are seeing early indications IMO.
Opinion noted and discarded as useless.


That's all I'm trying to say though this whole debate and you guys act like it's some crazy idea that can't possibly happen because there's no science behind it. Well there is.
Well if you say so.


Human beings are not immune to natural laws and in the end, that's what's going to get us.
Yes, yes. Entropy will get us all in the end. What's the point in doing anything about anything.


I feel like you guys are just trying rationalize it away so you don't have to think about it.
Yes, I got into the field of natural resource management just so that I wouldn't have to think about it.


Are we done here? That post looked like a closing summation.

[ConcinusMan]

Are we done here? That post looked like a closing summation.

If I answered with a "yes" you would just say "no" :rolleyes:

[chris-uk]

Interestingly quiet on the forum lately.

Indeed it has. Its got to pick up as more snakes come out of brumation and get jiggy.

[guidofatherof5]

If I answered with a "yes" you would just say "no" :rolleyes:

♪You say eether and I say eyether,
You say neether and I say nyther;
Eether, eyether, neether, nyther,
Let's call the whole thing off!
You like potato and I like potahto,
You like tomato and I like tomahto;
Potato, potahto, tomato, tomahto!
Let's call the whole thing off!
But oh! If we call the whole thing off,
Then we must part.
And oh! If we ever part,
Then that might break my heart!
So, if you like pajamas and I like pajahmas,
I'll wear pajamas and give up pajahmas.
For we know we need each other,
So we better call the calling off off.
Let's call the whole thing off!♪

[Selkielass]

I went for a walk at our township nature center yesterday. They've made lots of trail improvements. I spotted several debris piles I have want to check out once the weather breaks.
It wont be long before the Butlers are moving. The Easterner won't be too far behind.

[tress29]

Walking Dead withdrawals:DMy boys will rewatch old episodes on Netflix...

[ConcinusMan]

Interestingly quiet on the forum lately.


Indeed it has.

I thought that was pretty normal for Sat-Mon. (which is weird unless most people here are screwing around on the forum at work when they're supposed to be working LoL) Why it carried over into tuesday is anyone's guess but it certainly doesn't come as a surprise.

[ConcinusMan]

My boys will rewatch old episodes on Netflix...

I tried that, being how I didn't watch it on AMC in the first place. So, I gave it a go on netflix. Still don't understand the obsession. Got bored and quit watching about 5 episodes in. Don't understand the popularity at all. But then again, "survivor" was insanely popular too but you couldn't pay me to watch it.:cool:

[guidofatherof5]

I don't know but there may be a few spammers here:D

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/2013-02-28_065907.png

[chris-uk]

I don't know but there may be a few spammers here:D

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/2013-02-28_065907.png

Yeah, that "-Marwolaeth-" character is always posting rubbish. :D

[-MARWOLAETH-]

I have to agree with you there.

[Invisible Snake]

8270

"This was a rather large gravid female Nerodia sipedon that I had to save from hikers who thought she was venomous due to her size and defensive posture. Got to love those impromptu educational moments! (especially when they benefit both the people and the snake). Note the circular pupils and lack of the heat-sensing pits on the water snake."

[chris-uk]

I have to agree with you there.

And.... You occasionally break into some dying foreign language... Gets confusing sometimes.

[Invisible Snake]

8271

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Blame the Saxons...

[chris-uk]

Blame the Saxons...

I blame Edward I, for not stamping down harder.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

When I see the shi:)te thats on S4C,I sort of wish he did.

[chris-uk]

I've popped it on every now and then for a laugh... That's a few minutes of my life I'll never get back. At least S4C isn't funded from my license fee, unlike the Welsh language stuff from the BBC.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

For those that don't know what S4C is...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-Fcy70fhds

[ProXimuS]

8271

Aced it:cool:

[ProXimuS]

For those that don't know what S4C is...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-Fcy70fhds


Is he speaking just English, and I just don't understand? Or is he also speaking Welsh or something?

[-MARWOLAETH-]

He's speaking English with a few 'Welsh sounds' added.

[chris-uk]

He's speaking English with a few 'Welsh sounds' added.

And that is why watching S4C is like having the time of your life suckered out of you.

And Will... Happy St Davids Day.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Thank,it is a very happy Dydd Gwyl Dewi indeed as sixth formers don't have to go to the Eisteddfod :D

[Chulio]

What am I missing?

[guidofatherof5]

What am I missing?

It's some kind of code.:D

[chris-uk]

What? You guys don't speak Taffy? :)

[chris-uk]

Thank,it is a very happy Dydd Gwyl Dewi indeed as sixth formers don't have to go to the Eisteddfod :D

Even Her Majesty isn't above pulling a sickie to avoid visiting your home town on Dydd Gwyl Dewi. :)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-21635900

[CrazyHedgehog]

St Davids day.... to raise funds for St Davids Hospice ...
I wore red today for work..
A red Rugby shirt,
red trousers and red tartan DR Martens!!

Paid for the privilege and bought raffle tickets etc...

[guidofatherof5]

Do you happen to have a photo of all this red?:D

[Invisible Snake]

Just for you William, Happy St. Davids Day!

8302

"Adders are emerging in Neath, South Wales"

(Saw it being shared today on my FB newsfeed)

[guidofatherof5]

Sweet.

[Stefan-A]

For those that don't know what S4C is...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-Fcy70fhds

Just remembered something similar from my youth.

ctaszjeaDK0

[guidofatherof5]

A classic movie going to released(March 13th) on Blu-ray The Blob with Steve McQueen(his first movie)
Checkout the short clip. Awesome.
In my opinion it's way over priced($26) but should be more affordable a few months after the release.

The Blob (1958) - The Criterion Collection (http://www.criterion.com/films/630-the-blob)

[Invisible Snake]

Read this online

"Finland is also known as "the land of the thousand lakes," because of the over 188,000 lakes found in this country."

Is that true Stefan?

[chris-uk]

Read this online

"Finland is also known as "the land of the thousand lakes," because of the over 188,000 lakes found in this country."

Is that true Stefan?
If it is true (and in the depths of my memory I think I remember being told the same fact) then the Finns should be known as "The people of subtle understatement".

[Stefan-A]

Read this online

"Finland is also known as "the land of the thousand lakes," because of the over 188,000 lakes found in this country."

Is that true Stefan?
The land of a thousand lakes. Yes, that's something Finland is known as. Regarding that understatement, it's a bad translation. In Finnish it's more along the lines of "the land of thousands of lakes".

How many lakes there actually are, is a matter of definition.

[Chulio]

I saw the Blob when I was a kid and it scared the crap out of me. I have had it recorded on DVR for many years

[guidofatherof5]

I saw the Blob when I was a kid and it scared the crap out of me. I have had it recorded on DVR for many years

I'll own the blu-ray after the price drops.

[Invisible Snake]

8305

"This is a glasswing butterfly (Greta oto), a brush-footed butterfly with transparent wings.
They're found from from Mexico through to Panama and have a wingspan of 5.6 to 6.1 cm."

[Light of Dae]

I know I have been absent lately, life is crazy busy. I love it, everything is going great..

Then I get a message... I didn't want. worse then just dying.. slow death, creeping over and debilitating your body... each function slowly slipping out of your grip... I'm building wheelchair ramps for the coming trial of slowly dying..

All I have to say is SCREW YOU CANCER!!! Leave my dad alone!

[Stefan-A]

I'm truly sorry to hear that.

[gregmonsta]

It's awful news indeed. Be strong for him.

[guidofatherof5]

You are in our thoughts and prayers.

[chris-uk]

Bugger, that's not good news. Life has this knack of blowing in a storm when you're happily sailing along. :(

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Sorry to hear this. You are in our thoughts and prayers.

[Light of Dae]

Thanks everyone, we are still praying for a miracle.. Thank you for all the support.

[ConcinusMan]

I keep hearing about places around the U.S. getting dumped on by snow but it's gorgeous and sunny here in SW WA. 62 F at my place. A friend in Portland, OR (about 8 miles away) just called me and said there's "about a thousand" (northwestern) garter snakes in his yard.:D

[guidofatherof5]

I keep hearing about places around the U.S. getting dumped on by snow but it's gorgeous and sunny here in SW WA. 62 F at my place. A friend in Portland, OR (about 8 miles away) just called me and said there's "about a thousand" (northwestern) garter snakes in his yard.:D

What was that address in Portland?:D

[Invisible Snake]

I keep hearing about places around the U.S. getting dumped on by snow but it's gorgeous and sunny here in SW WA. 62 F at my place.

We here in NYC got at least a foot of snow and traffic was horrible

[ConcinusMan]

Bugger, that's not good news. Life has this knack of blowing in a storm when you're happily sailing along. :(

Don't pay attention to the weather report. No action is needed until your vessel and your house is inundated. But let's not neglect to give attention to one very important thing... oh look! a squirrel!:D

[ConcinusMan]

Recent heat spike unlike anything in 11,000 years » Corpus Christi Caller-Times (http://www.caller.com/news/2013/mar/09/recent-heat-spike-unlike-anything-11000-years/)

[-MARWOLAETH-]

:eek: Oh feck

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah. We need to get a few billion of these up and running, like yesterday. This Micro-Algae Lamp Absorbs 150-200 Times More CO2 than a Tree! (Video) : TreeHugger (http://www.treehugger.com/urban-design/microalgae-lamp-absorbs-150-200-times-more-co2-tree-video.html)


and even then it might just be too little, too late. Even if you solved every other problem facing humanity right now it would all be for nothing if we don't fix this. If runaway global warming continues at this pace, not much else matters.:cool:

[Stefan-A]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjD0e1d6GgQ

[-MARWOLAETH-]

It's quite sad that I've learnt far more from Potholer than I have form my school teachers.

[chris-uk]

It's quite sad that I've learnt far more from Potholer than I have form my school teachers.

They aren't in the business of teaching anymore... It's a matter of covering their arses with paperwork to show that they are hitting government targets. And our exam system is fatally flawed - when the teachers responsible for hitting grade targets are also responsible for marking assessments for the bulk of those pupils' exams, and the exam board guidance would allow teacher assessed assignments to vary in moderation from a B to a D before a teacher's marking was checked in more detail... It takes a brave teacher to buck the trend and mark harshly (or even honestly) as opposed to marking as leniently as they can and spoon feeding their classes with the information they need for an assessment. Those assessments may be open-book. And if they don't get good results in the first assessment session, that session can mysteriously become a "mock assessment" and the thick ones who screwed up fan be given a few less subtle pointers in between.
And when OFSTED expect teachers to be able to provide documented evidence that every one of their pupils has improved in some way for every hour of "teaching", that doesn't leave much freedom for teachers to teach. From primary school to A-level it's about showing how they meet targets as opposed to useful teaching.

It's no wonder that you learn more outside of school than in lessons. It's not necessarily because your teachers are **** though. (Yes, I have a few teachers in the family).

[Invisible Snake]

8316

"How many of you have heard of the Maned Wolf? In spite of its appearance and name it is not a fox, nor is it a wolf.
The Maned Wolf, native to South America is actually the only known surviving member of the Chrysocyon genus and is not closely related to any living canid.
One suggested explanation for this is that the Maned Wolf is a lone survivor of the Pleistocene extinction which wiped out all of its close relatives and other canids from South America.
A study published in 2003 placed the Maned Wolf together with the extinct Falklands Island wolf (also not a true wolf, it became extinct in 1876) based on morphology. The study also suggested an affinity with the pseudo-foxes of the genus Pseudalopex. A genetic study published in 2009 confirmed the link with the Falklands Island wolf and suggested that they shared a common ancestor around six million years ago."

[Invisible Snake]

8317

"This is NOT a reptile! This is the larva of the Hemeroplanes triptolemus moth. In its larval form it is capable of expanding its anterior body segments to give it the appearance of a snake, complete with simulated eyes. It's mimicry extends even to the point where it will harmlessly strike at potential predators."

[guidofatherof5]

Nature is awesome.

[ProXimuS]

We have a Maned Wolf at our zoo here(actually maybe more than one, it's been a while since I've been). They're so pretty :)

[Stefan-A]

It's quite sad that I've learnt far more from Potholer than I have form my school teachers.
Of the people I'm subscribed to, potholer54 and greenman3610 have the best videos on the subject.
https://www.youtube.com/user/greenman3610/

When I went to school (mainly in 1985-1997), the main concerns were the depletion of the ozone layer, pollution, topsoil erosion and desertification, and local problems like acid rain and eutrophication. No talk of climate change.

[guidofatherof5]

From one of the snake room windows you can see we had the light dusting of snow that was called for.:D

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/snow3.jpg

[ConcinusMan]

Reminds me of an event here in western WA, winter '79-80 I think it was. "slight chance of snow flurries" was the overnight forecast. Woke up to find nearly 2 feet on the ground.

You can have it. Snakes are out here already.:D

[ConcinusMan]

It's quite sad that I've learnt far more from Potholer than I have form my school teachers.

Sad perhaps, but not the least bit surprising. I just now got around to watching the video. That's so funny that people used to think that the sun orbited the earth. Everyone knows that it doesn't orbit. It's carried around the earth by Helios on a chariot. Duh. It's obvious. :rolleyes:

I can think of at least one fact you can't argue away as just a "feeling": Teen pregnancy rates go down significantly after age 19. Figured that one out all by myself.:D

[twgrosmick]

Looking for any snake guys to play some COD Black Ops 2 with.

PM me Playstation ID

[channa]

Get on xbox

[snake man]

I only have xbox.

[guidofatherof5]

Thoughts and prayers for my son Kale(16) and a his classmates who are on a Washington D.C. field trip. He arrived safely and will return on Sunday.

[chris-uk]

Thoughts and prayers for my son Kale(16) and a his classmates who are on a Washington D.C. field trip. He arrived safely and will return on Sunday.

He'll be out painting the town red by now. :)

[guidofatherof5]

He'll be out painting the town red by now. :)

Nope.

cEXHLFp6ORg

[guidofatherof5]

Looks like Spamalot is playing again. Silly spammers.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/2013-03-16_103847.png

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Rugby Six nations yesterday.England 3-30 Wales :D

Mae ddrwg gen i, Chris. Efallau bu Lloeger yn wneud yn well tro nesaf ?

[chris-uk]

Rugby Six nations yesterday.England 3-30 Wales :D

Mae ddrwg gen i, Chris. Efallau bu Lloeger yn gweneud yn wneud yn well tro nesaf ?

There's no response to that which wouldn't be picked out by the forum's profanity filter. Well played Wales, our boys should have got a bollocking at half time and I wouldn't have wanted to be in the dressing room after the match. Joseph woke up just before the end of the match and started crying, tempting though it was I didn't join him.

[guidofatherof5]

My son Kale is home safe and sound from his Washington D.C. trip.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Great news!

my son kale is home safe and sound from his washington d.c. Trip.

[ConcinusMan]

A tornado touched down just north of Vancouver today and ripped the roof off of a barn and dropped it 500 feet away. While rare here, if it's going to happen it's usually this time of year. I did notice we had some heavy downpours today and the temperature dropped 10 degrees suddenly but no wind at my house.

[ConcinusMan]

"A small tornado tore through a barn in Hockinson on Thursday afternoon as dark skies, hail and heavy rain swept through Clark County, WA"

Small tornado damages Hockinson barn | The Columbian (http://www.columbian.com/news/2013/mar/21/possible-funnel-cloud-damages-barn-near-hockinson/)

March and April can get pretty wild around here. It can be nice and in the 70's one day, hailing, snowing, lighting, or even a tornado the next. Crazy.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

... http://i35.tinypic.com/iep9vd.gif

[guidofatherof5]

Whoooo posted that. Owl never understand why :D

[Invisible Snake]

Saw this being shared on FB

8419

"I have seen Timber Rattlesnakes "yawn" on several occasions, but have never been able to photograph one in the act. I did not plan for or foresee this jaw stretch. I was taking shots of this animal resting quietly under Red Oak scrub ( NY - 8/2012) noting to myself how bad the lighting was - and then all of a sudden its mouth was agape and my finger happened to be on the shutter! I decided that despite the less than favorable contrast, I could live with the end result!"

[guidofatherof5]

Great photo. I've only seen Timbers in the wild once. Awesome snakes.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Whoooo posted that. Owl never understand why :D
He just wanted to join in!
He couldn't bear being Owl by himself.

[Stefan-A]

Allow me to tell you a story.

Once upon a time, there were two people who wanted the same bookshelf. Never mind the reason, or how there came to be an available bookshelf. (Fine, someone died and left it behind. Moving on.) It was a good, sturdy bookshelf and good, sturdy bookshelves are costly. The shelf consisted of two units, of which one had one set of shelves and the other had two, as in the picture below:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/garbage/shelves1.jpg


The two parties negotiated and came to a mutually unsatisfactory compromise. Person A, who needed two parts, was to have one and Person B, who had originally demanded the whole goddamn thing, was to have the remaining two. Well, looking at how the shelf was constructed, it seemed obvious how the shelf should be divided; Person A would have the small unit and Person B the big one.

And there was peace. For a while.



Then it happened. Person B was a creative bugger, and set out in secrecy to solve the problem his own way:


http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/garbage/shelves2.jpg


Person A was left with this:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/garbage/shelves3.jpg


Needless to say, Person A was less than satisfied and would very much like to know the reason for this provocation, as the relations between Persons A and B had always been good in the past. Furthermore, Person A would like to see the situation fixed, or Person A is likely to knock Person B's teeth into the next county the next time they meet.

[chris-uk]

That's not just a hypothetical situation is it Stefan?

[Stefan-A]

That's not just a hypothetical situation is it Stefan?
Nope.

[guidofatherof5]

Spring has sprung in Iowa. How do I know?
Well, I didn't listen to a groundhog, check the weather center, look at a calender or even step outside.
So, how do I know?

Tank is in heat and wandering the house. Restless and unable to sit still. All the big man wants to do is make some baby snapping turtles. My poor boy.:D
This will last for about a month.

[ConcinusMan]

Well I know quite a few guys that deny ever improvising and they're all liars. If you can't get him a real date, Find him a nice bicycle helmet, give him some privacy, and put this video on loop for him. Nature calls. Turtles Mating funny - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eMevDIpZrA)

And in the meantime don't let him near any bald heads or basket balls or the situation could get ugly. :D

[chris-uk]

A bicycle helmet sounds like a good idea. :)

[ConcinusMan]

Wasn't really my idea. It was Tank's. Steve had one in the floor and Tank tried to court it last spring.

Poor guy would try to violate anything remotely resembling a carapace. And Tank would too LoL (jk) :p

Close or beyond record high temperatures in the 7 day forecast. Mid to upper 70's expected in the northwest.:D

[guidofatherof5]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//751/medium/tankhelmet.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Shhh. Everyone keep it down. Tank has been asleep now for 12 hours. We have had 12 hours of bliss in the Gilfillan house. I'm going to let him sleep all day if I can.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

You could say he's shagged out!(sorry)

[Invisible Snake]

8447

"The Fan-throated lizard (Sitana ponticeriana) is a species of agamid lizard found in Nepal, India, Sri Lanka, and parts of Pakistan. These are 2 males fighting. Photo by Baiju Patil"

[guidofatherof5]

Tank woke up bright and early this morning. Went to his water, relieved himself and went back to bed under the bookcase.
He's been asleep all day now. Thank goodness for the peace and calm.

[ConcinusMan]

Helmets can rest easy for now?

[Invisible Snake]

Freshly hatched baby Cobras

8508

Photo credit and snakes belong to Tom Crutchfield.

[guidofatherof5]

Stunning. They don't look real.

[mikem]

baby cobras are the cutest!

[Steveo]

baby cobras are the cutest!


Aaaaaand that's the last time we ever heard from mikem. :p

[CrazyHedgehog]

I hate spiders, however this has to be the cutest darn thing ever, At least watch until the dance!)
Peacock Spider- catalyst - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFUZuAVUh7E)

[ConcinusMan]

Jumping spiders are the coolest

http://imageshack.us/a/img442/9379/p103011152311.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

We finally agree on something Richard.:p:D

[guidofatherof5]

Spammer alert!

[ConcinusMan]

Good. A wasted effort on their part is better than a successful one. Of course, I only say this because I'm not a moderator that has to deal with it.

[Stefan-A]

None of them have posted anything or done anything else, so I don't have to deal with it, or give a rat's ***.

[guidofatherof5]

Just got off the phone with Zephyr (Kyle) He wanted to say hello to the forum.
He's been busy with school and life but hopes to get back to the forum this Fall.

[EasternGirl]

Hey everyone! I'm alive...if you were wondering. School has been keeping me busy 24/7...but I am doing really well. My father died two weeks ago. So, things have been a bit crazy to say the least. Trying to figure out how to support my family now...with no job and school. I just got back from West Virginia, where my mother and I went to be with family during all of this...but instead of being comforted...my aunt was really nasty to us the whole time we were there and when I confronted her about it, she and my cousin went off on my mother and I and sent us emails telling us everything that they thought was wrong with us and how they haven't liked us for years. Nice. This was my mother's sister...so my mother is not doing too well right now, given my dad's death and us basically cutting her family off for being jerks. I'm just trying to get through the rest of the semester. I will be back around the forum now...school or not...I need my forum family. I hope everyone is doing well. I will post on my thread to update on my snakes.

[Stefan-A]

Sorry to hear about the troubles. We've been dealing with something very similar for the last 3 or 4 months over here.

[guidofatherof5]

Family, they can be a blessing or a curse.

[Invisible Snake]

Sorry for your loss Marnie, if you need anything we're here for you.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Sorry for your loss Marnie, i hope things start to be more positive for you and your mother!

[EasternGirl]

Thanks you guys. I'm back at the hospital today. The instructor for that clinical class is really mean. She has no idea how to teach...she thinks we know everything already and gets angry and yells at us in front of the patients if we don't know how to do something instead of showing us how to do it. We are there to learn...if we knew everything, we would be nurses already. She yelled at me once in front of a patient and some of my classmates, which is totally inappropriate. So I am dreading going back there. Thankfully, I had three weeks of my other clinical class at a nursing home with a great instructor and learned a lot...so maybe now I am more prepared to deal with the drill instructor...lol. Still working on trying to get my father cremated and put in the veteran's cemetery. It costs a lot of money.

[Invisible Snake]

8561

"Phil Rakoci gives educational events through his Wildman Phil show. One of his assistants, Stumpy the tortoise, has been doing well for 13 years with only one front leg (Stumpy was rescued by Phil). “I just want people to get to know these creatures and learn to love them,” Rakoci said. “Then, maybe we can keep them around a little longer.” Photo of Stumpy by Phil Rakoci."

[Steveo]

It was 16 degrees at lunch time today. I just want to get that on record.

[Steveo]

Aaaaaand it's snowing again. After hitting 70 degrees less than 48 hours ago. I know that this is not unusual for Colorado, but damnit, I just spent 10 days being sick and I want to get out and ride my bike.

[guidofatherof5]

They are calling for snow for Iowa on Thursday. Hopefully Winter's last hooray.

[CrazyHedgehog]

There's a guy on Facebook, uk reptiles selling 48 albino garter babies £20 each, 3 for £50 or all for£600

[guidofatherof5]

I'm guessing they would be T.marcianus Checkered Garter Snake.

[chris-uk]

There's a guy on Facebook, uk reptiles selling 48 albino garter babies £20 each, 3 for £50 or all for£600

Does he know what species they are? I guess albino checkereds.

[CrazyHedgehog]

Sorry yes albino chequered I told him about thi forum

[ConcinusMan]

Aaaaaand it's snowing again. After hitting 70 degrees less than 48 hours ago. I know that this is not unusual for Colorado, but damnit, I just spent 10 days being sick and I want to get out and ride my bike.

Yeah it was like that when I lived in Reno too, April and May. In May 1999 we had a week in the 80's (but 20's F an hour after sundown) then a few days of snow flurries, then right back into the 80's again.

[angrygamer]

Hey guys what's going on. Don't post much but thought I'd say hi. My snake Glyph is doing well and he's been doing very well the past year.

[chris-uk]

Hey guys what's going on. Don't post much but thought I'd say hi. My snake Glyph is doing well and he's been doing very well the past year.

Always good when people who don't post so much pop up to let us know their garters are doing well. :) The alternative when people drop off the forum is that their garters aren't doing well, and that's a bad thing.

[guidofatherof5]

Boston, Mass area members stay safe.

[guidofatherof5]

WebDragon,

Just so you know no one can reply to you until you've made a few more posts.

I would love to have T.s.pallidulus (Maritime garter snake) on the Ranch. They are beautiful.

[guidofatherof5]

Hey Greg (gregmonsta),

What the heck is going on. I find out you found 20+ newborn scrubs this morning and Facebook gets updated before Thamnophis.
Tell me it isn't so.:D

[gregmonsta]

Hey Greg (gregmonsta),

What the heck is going on. I find out you found 20+ newborn scrubs this morning and Facebook gets updated before Thamnophis.
Tell me it isn't so.:D

Lol ... it is so :P ... it's just quicker to upload a phone pic and comment in 'the swing of it' so to speak. Fulfilling Thamnophis.com protocols on this visit .... :P with even more pics :D

[ConcinusMan]

http://i34.tinypic.com/2vd31aq.jpg

[gregmonsta]

When people don't listen:

Last week I bagged a group fecal of some rescue snakes I'm currently holding. I went to the vet where I usually get these processed - I've used them for this on at least 4 occaisions in the past, cost around £30.

I handed over the baggy and said (in polite, well-enunciated transactional English): I'd like this to be tested for internal parasites, please.

I waited 2 days (the usual) and phoned the practice. I was told not all of the results where in yet. I was a little confused but I left it at that.

Roll on today ... fecals completely clear, lovely! BUT .... (the following was shared with the future recipients of said snakes) ...

The bill came in at £50+ ...

They said - oh, but the extra charges and vat etc. :D

I said - I've never paid more than £30 for a fecal for intestinal parasites, this is ridiculous. :confused:

They said - oh, but they cultured and check for bacteria too. :o

I said - that's not what I asked for ... :mad:

Poor little receptionist will be checking with the senior partners tomorrow ... They'd better find a price that pleases me ...

[ConcinusMan]

Bacteria? I'm not so sure I would even trust their results if they don't even know what to look for. Shoot, not even all internal parasites need to be eliminated or counted as positive since many are harmless. Well of course it's going to be infested with bacteria! It is a pile of **** after all. :rolleyes:

[Chulio]

That is why I always get estimates even at places I frequent. Things here are not what they used to be and rarely would you even get the same answer to the same questions at any business. Everywhere I go I see incompetence on a daily basis. It is sad because I like to be an optimist but in today's world I keep running into walls.

[chris-uk]

They'd better find a price that pleases me ...

You're a Scot, they'll have to do a convincing job to pry more than the usual £30 from your wallet. ;)

[ConcinusMan]

That is why I always get estimates even at places I frequent. Things here are not what they used to be and rarely would you even get the same answer to the same questions at any business. Everywhere I go I see incompetence on a daily basis. It is sad because I like to be an optimist but in today's world I keep running into walls.

And know this: The estimate seems to be a minimum and the actual cost is almost always significantly higher. When I had new concrete done on my former house (remove and pour new front walk/porch and new back patio which was severely damaged in the 1993 Scotts Mills earthquake and rendered unusable) it ended up costing $2,000 more than they said it would. :rolleyes:

[Invisible Snake]

I'd like to give a big public thank you to Steve "guidofatherof5" for helping me with a potential rescue royal I was planning on taking in. Thanks again Steve!!

[guidofatherof5]

Not a problem. We are a forum family and helping is just being a good family member. Glad I was able to assist you.
The real thanks goes to my mother(R.I.P) who taught me to share all I have, because I can't take it with me.:D

[Invisible Snake]

Saw this on my FB feed.

8711

"Northern Water Snake I found about 2 weeks ago.
Virginia"

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Wow! What a nice looking girl!

[mikem]

beautiful water snake!

[ProXimuS]

Hello all :)

I have a question about Corn Snakes but didn't want to make a whole new thread. What is the genus and species name for Corn snakes? Petco has them labeled as "Elphae guttata guttata," but I thought they were "Pantherophis guttatus." And when I google it, both names come up for Corn Snakes :rolleyes:

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Lots of species of ratsnakes have been moved from elaphe to pantherophis so pantherophis guttatus is now correct!

[Stefan-A]

Hello all :)

I have a question about Corn Snakes but didn't want to make a whole new thread. What is the genus and species name for Corn snakes? Petco has them labeled as "Elphae guttata guttata," but I thought they were "Pantherophis guttatus." And when I google it, both names come up for Corn Snakes :rolleyes:
Pantherophis.

Elaphe, as it used to be, contained a bunch of species that weren't closely related and excluded a bunch of species that were. For example, Corn snakes and Aesculapian snakes are far less closely related, than for example Corn snakes and Milk snakes, yet the former two were bunched into the same genus (Elaphe), while the latter two were separated (Elaphe and Lampropeltis). It made absolutely no sense at all.

[ProXimuS]

It also seems like most of the snakes from the genus Elaphe are in Asia(or I could be mistaken).

[Stefan-A]

It also seems like most of the snakes from the genus Elaphe are in Asia(or I could be mistaken).
I believe that's correct. There aren't many members left, either.

[guidofatherof5]

Good morning Iowa it's May 2nd and Spring.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/snow4.jpg

[Invisible Snake]

Wow! :eek:

[ProXimuS]

We've had a relatively cool spring so far, too. Nothing to that extent for sure:p But lots of cold fronts coming through.

[ProXimuS]

I also have another randomish question. Can Bearded Dragons eat nightcrawlers? I buy tubs of 20 nightcrawlers for Tallie and wouldn't mind sharing them with my roommate's Beardie :)

[-MARWOLAETH-]

I also have another randomish question. Can Bearded Dragons eat nightcrawlers? I buy tubs of 20 nightcrawlers for Tallie and wouldn't mind sharing them with my roommate's Beardie :)
Yes

[ConcinusMan]

Wow! :eek:

That's nothing. Cheyenne Wyoming was 70 F on Monday I believe, and by Wednesday morning they had 14 inches of snow on the ground. Parts of Texas experienced a nearly 70 degree drop in temperature over 48hrs.

Meanwhile the northwest has been just perfect. :D Plenty of sun and 60's-70's. We're going to be getting close to 90 F in the next few days and not a threat of rain anytime soon. Just sunny and low to upper 80's in the 10-day outlook. It's a nice change from last year. It poured rain nearly every day until late June and we had sticking snow on April 29th.

[ConcinusMan]

I was just driving home a few minutes ago when I spotted something in the road. When I got close enough I realized it what it is. A full grown live bearded dragon.:eek: other than the tip of the tail missing it seems to be in pretty good shape. It took a drink but isn't interested in fruits and vegetables I offered. It also isn't happy about being in a tank and is constantly scratching the glass. It won't even sit under the ceramic heater.

[guidofatherof5]

Wow, didn't think those were native to WA.:D

[ConcinusMan]

Or North America for that matter. No, I think someone in that neighborhood lost her recently. I'll make a reasonable effort to find the owner but even if nobody claims her I'll most likely to try find someone else to keep her.

[Steveo]

It's like Jurassic Park all over again. If dragons start breeding in the wild, we're in trouble!

[ConcinusMan]

No fear of that here. There's only one lizard that lives in this climate successfully. (Northwestern alligator lizard) Just night before last it got down to almost freezing. Any beardie living outside here would fall ill in no time or get eaten by a cat/dog. I'm afraid if she's been out overnight last night or the last few nights she might develop a RI soon anyway. Well, hopefully she's just been out today. It's sunny and warm.

[Stefan-A]

Good morning Iowa it's May 2nd and Spring.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/snow4.jpg
Everybody's tired of winter.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/garbage/enoughwinter.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

Very nicely played Stefan.

[ConcinusMan]

Look what I just found and I'm all over it. Now if they would just answer the phone or call me back I'll take it!

48 gallon fish tank (http://portland.craigslist.org/clk/pet/3762781314.html)

[ConcinusMan]

Everybody's tired of winter.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/garbage/enoughwinter.jpg

Nice :D

[ConcinusMan]

Look what I just found and I'm all over it. Now if they would just answer the phone or call me back I'll take it!

48 gallon fish tank (http://portland.craigslist.org/clk/pet/3762781314.html)

Scored that^^^ and I even talked him down to $40. Yes!

[ConcinusMan]

You know it's going to be a scorcher when you wake up at the crack of dawn and it's 68 degrees. That's our typical high for this time of year.

[ConcinusMan]

Everyone thinks that in order to solve these problems, more money is needed. The truth is, all these problems wouldn't exist if it weren't for money/capitalism existing in the first place. That's the cold hard truth. Money doesn't drive people and companies to do what's right for everyone and the environment. It drives them to do what's profitable and to hell with the environment. I live in a city that receives abundant rainfall. Water is plentiful. And yet I get charged an arm and a leg for it, by the gallon and it is illegal to collect rainwater and use it to water my landscaping. Then they turn around and charge you a drainage fee based on the square footage of your property!!! Water is much cheaper living in the deserts of the southwest where they charge a flat rate and water is scarce. You can use all you want. A gallon, or 500 gallons and your monthly cost is the same. Now, how does that make any sense whatsoever?

http://i41.tinypic.com/dm44fb.jpg

[Invisible Snake]

8754

"The mouth and esophagus of the leatherback turtle are a perfect example of how an animal can become adapted to its diet and habitat. When the turtle consumes jellyfish (and it must eat many, as jellyfish have low nutritional value), the esophagus stores both the jellyfish and the seawater that have been swallowed. However, to prevent the stomach filling with water, the seawater must be expelled. So how does this happen?

The answer lies in the backwards-pointing spikes you see in the mouth of the turtle, which continue down the esophagus and grow progressively larger. As the muscles of the esophagus squeeze the seawater out, the spines keep the jellyfish in place. Once all the water has been expelled the jellyfish are then passed into the stomach. This strange adaptation is one of many that have kept this magnificent species in existence for 90 million years.

More information on the leatherback sea turtle: Leatherback Sea Turtles, Leatherback Sea Turtle Pictures, Leatherback Sea Turtle Facts - National Geographic (http://on.natgeo.com/bdf17q)

Edit: yes, that is blood around its mouth. This animal washed up on shore dead and was dissected for the educational television show "inside natures giants"."

[Stefan-A]

If anyone wonders where the videos went, I moved them here: http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/garter-snake-lounge/6423-found-youtube-16.html