Garter snake sick from giving birth?

[Bothriechis schlegelii]

Sirtalis has been "grouchy" ever since she gave birth to 8 little ones. She's never striked at me before, and today when I fed her, she didn't really strike at me, but she just sort of went towards my hand with her mouth open, but it was definitely to bite me. She doesn't move as much as she did when she was gravid, either. She just sits in one place, and when she does move, she just pokes around, really slow. She used to zoom by and go crazy. When I tried to pick her up, that's when she tried to bite me. It seemed like I was hurting her, but I was barely doing anything, I didn't even have her up yet. Also, I have her a worm, and she wouldn't even sniff it. The worm literally crawled over her and she didn't bother touching it. She usually just devours her food as soon as she sees it move!

Another thing, I think her mouth is sore, too. She sometimes opens one side of her mouth and closes it (sort of like chewing). Today, when I looked at her when she was in her hide, her mouth was a little tiny bit open.

[guidofatherof5]

Give us some history on her and her care(food/s, substrate, heat, water. enclosure size, etc)
What species?

How are the babies doing and how long ago did she have them?

[Bothriechis schlegelii]

She's WC. She has always slithered around her tank pretty fast all the time, and you know, the usual behavior. It's a Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis (Eastern garter).

Continued in next post, phone issues.

[d_virginiana]

Is there any swelling in the vent area? Is the lower third of her body swollen in any way? The first thing I think of when I hear about a snake being lethargic is a potential infection.
Without more info it's impossible to say anything else...

[chris-uk]

How long ago that she gave birth is important.

First thoughts are infection, or possibly that there's some complications from the birthing and she has either not given birth to all the young she was carrying or the young she delivered damaged her internally on the way out. I'm guessing here that snakes are like any animal and parturition can lead to complications...

[Bothriechis schlegelii]

I feed her 3 worms per week (going to change that to 1 pinkie per week). Her tank is 5g (going to soon upgrade to at least 20g), with reptile aspen shavings for substrate, a half log style hide and a (cleaned) styrofoam worm container filled 3/4 full for a water dish. She used to have a regular bulb in a clamp lamp fixture sitting on her mesh screen lid, but I removed it. However, I removed it 2-3 weeks before she gave birth, and she didn't show any signs of sickness until after she gave birth.

She had 8 babies on the 23rd of this month. Garters can have over 40 babies, which makes me wonder if she let them all out. If she still is gravid with a couple more babies, would they still be alive? Hopefully IF there are more, they retained their yolk sack, or something that would have kept them alive. The babies are doing great so far, no stillborns, none died, and I'll start feeding them worm pieces on the 28th (5 days after birth)

Sorry about the last post, my phone wasn't cooperating and I couldn't finish the post.

[chris-uk]

What does she weigh? Smaller females probably won't drop large litters.
Can you feel any lumps in the lower body?

[ConcinusMan]

On the one hand I would say eating aggressively after dropping dropping babies is a good sign. The faster she fills back out the better. On the other hand, the rest doesn't sound that great. Snakes shouldn't be sitting slackjawed /w mouth open when at rest, for any reason.

At any rate having babies is hard on them and there's plenty that can go wrong. It wouldn't be unusual to lose a female in the days following a birthing. Sometimes they just slide downhill and never recover body mass or never resume eating, particularly females that quit eating weeks before the birth. Sometimes they have babies at great risk to themselves and complications ensue, babies/infertile eggs, etc, aren't passed and in those cases they die later of septicemia.

Only a vet / blood test can rule out septicemia but as was said you can sometimes detect something still in there by feeling for lumps. If that's what it is they usually stop eating and die pretty quickly but sometimes eat fine and die unexpectedly.

Your case could just be she isn't feeling to to par yet but really they should be back to their old self in a week or two and filled back out within 2-4 weeks. Worms aren't going to cut it. They're mostly water and a few worms per week is usually just enough to keep a small snake from starving to death. She needs something a lot more substantial than that.

If she doesn't resume aggressive eating of substantial items (whole fish, rodents, etc) within a week of having them, and is refusing/ignoring food, still looks "caved in", etc. that's not a good sign at all. I don't even see a 5 gallon being big enough for even the smallest breeding age female and it's very difficult to provide a proper temperature gradient in something that small. Should be low to mid 70's with an isolated spot near 90 F big enough for her to coil on/under. If a girl is going to get infections, RI's, etc. it's going to happen while they are gravid or just gave birth, and the temperature gradient/environment isn't right.

At any given time she should have the option to cool down to 70 F or warm up to 90 F at will. Without that, she's at high risk of complications, infections, RI, etc.

[Bothriechis schlegelii]

She isn't eating. I gave her a worm yesterday and she didn't even bother sniffing it. It literally crawled over her. And I feed her frogs every now and then (she's WC, so I'm not worried about parasites).

[chris-uk]

Good point on the food Richard. My girls that are relevant big enough to breed would be snapping at my fingers if I was only feeding them three worms a week, or one pinky.

I still think it would be useful to have an idea of this girl's weight.

[ConcinusMan]

Or to be more specific, her body mass index is what's important, not her weight. A clear photo, rather than knowing her weight, would be more helpful in determining her overall health. Sounds to me like the diet and the environment aren't right and if it's been that way for much of her gestation period...

How long has it been since she ate? Did she eat all the way up until she had them, or quit 3 weeks prior? What's the cool end and warm end temperatures? What are you using 2 heat a 5gal tank? How long ago did she have them? That's all important to know. But seriously you could have been feeding her worms every day and it probably wouldn't be adequate unless you're talking about a 12-14 inch northwestern or something like that.

[d_virginiana]

It's a long shot, but she may be refusing worms at this point because she sees the energy it would take to eat them as being worth more than what she would get from them. I know frogs will do that, especially if they're stressed. Offer pinky mice and silversides. Like... immediately. Sitting slack-jawed and listless is a pretty bad sign and delays make it less likely she'll recover.
Also, I'd recommend not feeding frogs any more unless that's the only thing she'll take. It's kind of like realizing your milk is spoiled and continuing to drink it... If she doesn't already have parasites, introducing more when she's sick isn't a good idea.

Don't wait to get a 20 gallon tank (unless you can get it ASAP); go buy a large sterilite tub from walmart and drill air holes into the sides. Using newspaper for bedding will keep the humidity from getting too high in one. A 5 gallon isn't suitable for any adult garter. She needs a temp gradient and decent food supply. And a thermometer to make sure the temp gradient is correct. The hand-held laser thermometers are like $20 from Petsmart.

A picture of the mom would be good. If she doesn't mind being picked up, get pics of the lower third of her body and vent area too.
Also, how are you keeping the babies? Can you post a picture of their setup and what you plan to feed them as well?

[Bothriechis schlegelii]

Everybody, I'm pretty sure that she is not sick from giving birth. I suspect a respiratory infection, caused by rodent aspen shavings, which are more dusty than reptile aspen shavings. I immediately removed the shavings and replaced it with paper towel. Now just to wait? I'm not sure. How do I cure this? Now to start researching...

[chris-uk]

If she has an RI you should be looking at a trip to the vet to get her some antibiotics. That's the best way to cure an RI.

[d_virginiana]

Vet visit. And get her in a more appropriate setup/start feeding more if she'll eat. Stressors like that can make a sick snake even weaker.

[Bothriechis schlegelii]

She won't eat. She hasn't eaten since she gave birth on the 23rd. I will get a large bin for her, and put reptile (not rodent!!) aspen shavings in it, with a large water dish and hide in it. I'll provide the best I can for her. I think the closest vet that will take snakes is around 4-5 hours away, but I'll look into it. For now, what can I do? If I can't take her to the vet? What do I do???

[ConcinusMan]

Everybody, I'm pretty sure that she is not sick from giving birth. I suspect a respiratory infection, caused by rodent aspen shavings, which are more dusty than reptile aspen shavings. I immediately removed the shavings and replaced it with paper towel. Now just to wait? I'm not sure. How do I cure this? Now to start researching...

Like bacterial pneumonia in humans, most respiratory infections in snakes are caused by common household bacteria that don't normally cause infections. Bacteria present basically everywhere in the environment that ourselves and our snakes come in contact with and ingest or inhale everyday without any problems. The immune system normally does it's job and keeps these from harming your snake or causing any symptoms. I am told by vets that the #1 husbandry mistake that causes these infections is keeping a snake too warm and/or lack of a temperature gradient. I think it's quite unlikely that some dusty aspen caused the infection.

The gradient is important because the snake needs to thermoregulate. For garters an air temperature in the 70's is appropriate but they also need to have a spot where they can warm up to 85-90 degrees. Inability to regulate their body temperature freely puts stress on the immune system. Combine that with a heavy parasite load and/or becoming gravid/giving birth and the immune system won't be able to fight off infections then they get an R.I. This has happened to me just once and it was an old female that was gravid. Antibiotics are the only way to cure it. I used oral Baytril suspension for 14 days and saw significant improvement within 7 days.

The thing about R.I.'s is we don't see symptoms until it's quite advanced. They open their mouth when their nasal cavity is clogged with mucus or when it's moved into the lungs. Pneumonia is particularly dangerous to snakes since they only have one narrow, functional lung. There's very little time to spare once they start gaping. She needs the husbandry/temperature issues corrected but the infection will likely just get worse or become fatal if she doesn't get antibiotics. That requires a prescription/vet visit.

About all you can do now is keep her warm day and night (around 88-90 F and not longer than a week or so) and keep the humidity around 70%. That should help relieve symptoms but it won't get rid of the infection without antibiotics.

[Bothriechis schlegelii]

Like bacterial pneumonia in humans, most respiratory infections in snakes are caused by common household bacteria that don't normally cause infections. Bacteria present basically everywhere in the environment that ourselves and our snakes come in contact with and ingest or inhale everyday without any problems. The immune system normally does it's job and keeps these from harming your snake or causing any symptoms. I am told by vets that the #1 husbandry mistake that causes these infections is keeping a snake too warm and/or lack of a temperature gradient. I think it's quite unlikely that some dusty aspen caused the infection.

The gradient is important because the snake needs to thermoregulate. For garters an air temperature in the 70's is appropriate but they also need to have a spot where they can warm up to 85-90 degrees. Inability to regulate their body temperature freely puts stress on the immune system. Combine that with a heavy parasite load and/or becoming gravid/giving birth and the immune system won't be able to fight off infections then they get an R.I. This has happened to me just once and it was an old female that was gravid. Antibiotics are the only way to cure it. I used oral Baytril suspension for 14 days and saw significant improvement within 7 days.

The thing about R.I.'s is we don't see symptoms until it's quite advanced. They open their mouth when their nasal cavity is clogged with mucus or when it's moved into the lungs. Pneumonia is particularly dangerous to snakes since they only have one narrow, functional lung. There's very little time to spare once they start gaping. She needs the husbandry/temperature issues corrected but the infection will likely just get worse or become fatal if she doesn't get antibiotics. That requires a prescription/vet visit.

About all you can do now is keep her warm day and night (around 88-90 F and not longer than a week or so) and keep the humidity around 70%. That should help relieve symptoms but it won't get rid of the infection without antibiotics.

How do I keep the humidity up? I don't have a meter for humidity (can't remember the name of the gauge). Can I just have a wet piece of paper towel in there to keep humidity high just like for babies? I'll cut out half of the lid and secure some wire mesh on it so I can place a lamp there.

[guidofatherof5]

A larger water dish will help raise the humidity but opening the top and adding heat from a light will reduce the humidity.
Any chance you can get an under the tank heater? The benefits are the humidity stays in and the snake gets the needed heat.
ZooMed make a good heat pad.

[Bothriechis schlegelii]

A larger water dish will help raise the humidity but opening the top and adding heat from a light will reduce the humidity.
Any chance you can get an under the tank heater? The benefits are the humidity stays in and the snake gets the needed heat.
ZooMed make a good heat pad.

No, I can't provide a heat pad at the moment, but I can provide a lamp. I transferred her to a larger Rubbermaid bin that she can fully extend herself in. I provided a larger water dish, an extra hide, and a few more rocks to make it feel more natural (minus the paper towel haha).

I Googled "how to cure a respiratory infection in snakes" and came up with some home remedies and home treatment and stuff. I haven't read anything yet but I'll give it a good look right now...

[Bothriechis schlegelii]

What do you all think about this: Guide to Home Treatment of Snake Respiratory Infection - *BambooZoo (http://bamboozoo.weebly.com/snake--respiratory-remedy.html)

[ConcinusMan]

I think this treatment probably relieves symptoms and nothing more. garters do not typically have runny nose, bubbles, etc. But opening the mouth will often reveal very pale flesh inside the mouth (grey or white when it should be pink) and usually a thick sticky coating (mucous) that pretty much clogs the nasal cavity. You van see the sticky crap especially when you are opening the mouth . I cannot recommend the treatment although plain water or F10 SC Veterinary Disinfectant | Same Day Shipping (http://www.funbird.co/product-p/F10SC-200.htm?gclid=CNjQiYGCp7kCFSNyQgodQU0Amg)

..in a nebulizer/fogger machine can and sometimes does clear up R.I.'s. What the snake really needs is #1 correct the environment that contributed to the illness. #2 they need to get "the upper hand" which usually involves antibiotics especially if it has progressed to mouth gaping. The F10 can help by killing the bacteria that lines the respiratory tract. If conditions are corrected and the snake is otherwise healthy his immune system can possibly overcome the infection with just a little help from the F10. But do not mistake a BP with bubbles and a runny nose for the same thing garters get.

Baytril is good because it does not kill directly. It also doesn't kill beneficial gut bacteria. What it does is, prevents a wide range of bacteria from reproducing at a normal rate. Time and the snakes own immune system takes care of the rest. It just provides the needed boost so the snakes immune system can get ahead, "upper hand" etc.

There is absolutely nothing in this treatment in the link you provided that can help with killing the "bugs". It can only help relieve symptoms by breaking up mucus. Makes the snake feel better but until the immune system overcomes the bactera's reproduction rate, the infection will persist.

I highly recommend Baytril suspension. Once mixed/made up it only keeps for perhaps 20 days at 42 F. Give 0.05 ml per 100 grams of snake weight daily by mouth for at least 14 days. After 20 days in the fridge DO NOT USE IT as it will only create resistant bacteria if not used at proper dosage and potency. DO NOT administer any antibiotics without proper guidance and knowledge of what you're dealing with. You will likely only make things worse. I wish I had better news but I remain pessimistic that your snake will get over this without something to kill massive numbers of the bacteria. Keep her warm day and night for now. 85-90 F. and make sure the air isn't very dry. Misting, hot shower vapors, humidifier can help keep mucus loose.

[ConcinusMan]

HA! I suspected as much. Just found out that the main active ingredient in F10 that makes it work so well is Chlorhexidine. Already been using it for about a decade as an antiseptic not a disinfectant. use Chlorhexidine on your arm pits when you shower and the result is your pits never stink even without deodorant. great for feet too. rub it on and leave it. Wear clean socks and before you know it the odor is gone from even stinky old sneakers.

The antimicrobial effects penetrate deep into the skin and persist much longer than any other common antiseptic such as iso alcohol, iodine, or H2o2 all with less toxicity and damage to healthy tissue. Walk into any hospital. if you get a chance to see where surgens scrub down guess what they use on their hands and arms before surgery? No, not F10 but same active ingredient: Hibiclens Liquid - CVS pharmacy (http://www.cvs.com/shop/product-detail/Hibiclens-Liquid?skuId=102994)

[Bothriechis schlegelii]

Ok, so here's the plan:I got a bottle of Ferret Fx, which cures upper respiratory infections in ferrets. I'm going to create this mixture:-250mL boiling water-1/2 tsp. Vick's VapoRub-Few drops of Ferret FxAnd put it in a tupperware container with holes melted into the sides of it. Then, I'll put that container into another container, 2x the size of it. This bigger container is air-tight (no holes in it). I'll place Medusa in the big container, and close the container. Leave her in there for 20-30 minutes, 2-3 times/day. Hopefully after a couple (or even the first one!!!) "doses" of this vapour will make a happy happy happy snake! :)

[Bothriechis schlegelii]

Ok, so here's the plan:I got a bottle of Ferret Fx, which cures upper respiratory infections in ferrets. I'm going to create this mixture:-250mL boiling water-1/2 tsp. Vick's VapoRub-Few drops of Ferret FxAnd put it in a tupperware container with holes melted into the sides of it. Then, I'll put that container into another container, 2x the size of it. This bigger container is air-tight (no holes in it). I'll place Medusa in the big container, and close the container. Leave her in there for 20-30 minutes, 2-3 times/day. Hopefully after a couple (or even the first one!!!) "doses" of this vapour will make a happy happy happy snake!

[d_virginiana]

Who recommended the Ferret Fx and Vapo-Rub mixture, and what medications are in the Ferret Fx? I searched it and can't find anything. Some antibiotics that are fine for mammals are not effective or can even be harmful to reptiles; their systems are not the same and you could easily overdose a garter snake with measurements like that. If you don't know the weight of the snake or the type and concentration of antibiotics in the Ferret Fx, that could be dangerous.
You were just recommended not to use any antibiotics without proper guidance and knowing exactly what you are doing. If a vet or other professional (real professional; not the reptile guy at the PetCo) recommended this treatment, then it should be fine. If this is either a treatment that you thought up or another on-line 'remedy' I would recommend against doing it, as you're likely to cause more harm than good.

Also, I have to STRONGLY question the dosage that you've decided on. A proper dosage of typical reptile antibiotics like Baytril is .05mL per 100 grams of snake weight. A large female might weigh about 300 grams; assuming that your snake weighs that much (unlikely given her prior diet and current fasting). In other words, about 1.5 mL of that antibiotic would be needed for a large female. A teaspoon is just under 5mL (4.928 mL). In other words, the treatment you just described involves dosing a reptile with a mammal-proven antibiotic in excess of three times the dosage required of a reptile-safe medicine. Not only that, but you are talking about doing this several times a day.

[d_virginiana]

Actually, scratch that, I just searched Ferret Rx (which makes more sense, as fx is the veterinary abbreviation for fracture) and it is not going to work. It is a mixture of several volatile oils from plants which will only clear up mucous, not treat the infection. If this is your plan, there's actually no reason to mix it with vapo rub, as they contain many of the same ingredients.
For future reference, unless the ingredients list contains an antibiotic, the product does not cure an infection. Even on the Ferret Rx bottle, it states that it only treats symptoms of respiratory distress, such as sneezing.

You have already been told why such a treatment will not work to cure a respiratory infection. Take the advice that has been given to you and see a vet. Even a dog/cat vet can prescribe the appropriate medication for something as simple as an RI. This snake will not get better without some sort of medication to kill the bacteria in its system, and wasting time trying to find an over-the-counter treatment (especially for someone who is inexperienced with reptiles) is counterproductive, as the 'vapo-rub' type of treatments are ineffective against infections and time is lost before actual treatment could be started.

[Bothriechis schlegelii]

I got the mixture from here (http://bamboozoo.weebly.com/snake--respiratory-remedy.html), and substituted the other thing for Ferret Fx. Anyways, I seen this post after I did it for the first time, and She actually is a lot more active than she was before, but she definitely still has an R.I. I'm going to call the closest vet and ask if they take reptiles, as they are a dog vet. I'll keep you all posted.

[guidofatherof5]

Found this related threads to your snakes condition and this video.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/urgent-care/12864-respiratory-infection.html


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJCnPfuqaBM&t=2m50s

[Greg'sGarters]

Found this related threads to your snakes condition and this video.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/urgent-care/12864-respiratory-infection.html


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJCnPfuqaBM&t=2m50s


I do the same thing with my snakes, Jordan, skip to 3:48 for the part involving the nebulization technique I was telling you about. It may be a bit hard for you to acquire the F10 SC, but that's personally what I use. Good luck.

[d_virginiana]

I got the mixture from here (http://bamboozoo.weebly.com/snake--respiratory-remedy.html), and substituted the other thing for Ferret Fx. Anyways, I seen this post after I did it for the first time, and She actually is a lot more active than she was before, but she definitely still has an R.I. I'm going to call the closest vet and ask if they take reptiles, as they are a dog vet. I'll keep you all posted.

Those remedies can alleviate the symptoms of an RI, but like you said will not cure it. Kind of like a human with pneumonia can use vapo-rub to make themselves feel better for a short while, but not cure the underlying infection.

Hopefully the vet will be able to do something.

[Bothriechis schlegelii]

I do the same thing with my snakes, Jordan, skip to 3:48 for the part involving the nebulization technique I was telling you about. It may be a bit hard for you to acquire the F10 SC, but that's personally what I use. Good luck.

Yeah, I really do wish I could do this, but like I said before, I'm on a budget. If I'm going to spend about $100 on supplies, I'd rather take that cash to a vet, because I'm pretty sure Medusa is in a late phase of an R.I. She's sluggish, her eyes are...just weird; they're "sleepy" looking, and her mouth is pretty much hanging open and her tongue is sticking out a bit.

When I put her in that "plan" thing I described earlier, I checked up on her a few hours later, and she was a LOT more active (still not as much as she was before), and I checked her mouth and it closed up quite a bit! Not completely, but definitely noticeable.

I'm going to do this again for her tomorrow, as d_virginiana (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/members/d_virginiana.html) said it can't harm her. Therefore, since it can't harm her, I'm not worried about it hurting her or making it worse... and she definitely benefited from it.

All of this aside, I am calling the vet tomorrow and asking if they take snakes (it's a dog/cat/etc. vet).

[chris-uk]

See if the vet will see you and discuss the case with a herp vet if they aren't specialist themselves. I'm sure there are vets that would take a call from a fellow professional to help confirm diagnosis and treatment. If it's an RI the bottom line is you need someone to prescribe antibiotics, they should be able to find the prescription guidelines, the thing that they may be uncomfortable with is diagnosing the RI.

[ConcinusMan]

I'm going to do this again for her tomorrow, as d_virginiana (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/members/d_virginiana.html) said it can't harm her. Therefore, since it can't harm her, I'm not worried about it hurting her or making it worse... and she definitely benefited from it.

DON'T. It most certainly can hurt. Plain water can do that just as well which is why said to keep humidity up. The humidity loosens up the mucus. Jordan, I'm going to quite frank with you. There's still a chance the snake will die even if you take it to a vet and it definitely won't do any good if you don't have the needed basic equipment for housing and heating her properly. All of this is going to cost quite a bit and could have been prevented if you had just spent a fraction of that on the equipment that I told you was needed a month or two ago. If you don't get her on antibiotics immediately and correct the environment by getting the equipment needed she's going to die. It might already be too late and she could die anyway.

Next time you want to keep a snake, be prepared. Have everything you need and setup already. If you don't then when someone advises you that there a certain things you need for just basic proper husbandry, then release the snake if you can't get the things. I wasn't kidding about what is needed. Those things are needed for proper husbandry. The need these things. They aren't just luxuries for the snake. You can't just skip them and hope to get by. Without proper husbandry/environment and nutrition snakes just get ill and die. Sticking her in a plastic tub with nothing done about heat/gradient for a day or two is one thing, but long term like that kills them. You simply cannot keep reptiles like that because they are ectotherms. They must have heat (and a thermal gradient) in order to regulate their body temperature. No heat, no regulation and they cannot fight infection or even digest properly so they get ill and eventually die just like you would if your body temperature was not under control.

I already know that the likelihood you'll get her to a vet, the antibiotics and the equipment in time is pretty slim. She's just going to suffer until she dies so you might consider euthanizing her. They aren't very expensive to provide for but it isn't free either. The initial setup/equipment is the biggest expense but doesn't cost as much as a vet and treatment for an RI. The plastic tub will do fine but not without any heat/gradient. About $40 CAN for a hydrofarm seedling heat mat added under 1/4- of the tub could have prevented this and it will heat 2 tubs and last many years.

If you want to try keeping garters again then be prepared next time. I think you'll have a completely different and more rewarding experience and the money spent will keep your snake healthy instead of spending it on a vet.

[d_virginiana]

I'm going to do this again for her tomorrow, as d_virginiana (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/members/d_virginiana.html) said it can't harm her. Therefore, since it can't harm her, I'm not worried about it hurting her or making it worse... and she definitely benefited from it.




WOAH. I didn't say this can't harm her. Not sure where you got that... I breathed a sigh of relief when I realized that ferret stuff didn't have antibiotics in it, because the way you were talking about mixing it would have almost certainly been dangerous if it did.

What I said was that the procedures you are trying are not going to solve the root of the problem and that you need to go see a vet.