Age Limits

[EKS56]

How old should a female be and still allow her to breed?

[guidofatherof5]

Are you asking about young age or old age?

[d_virginiana]

Old age. We were talking about his female blackneck earlier, and I mentioned that I personally wouldn't breed her again after the litter she's having if she were mine. I was just basing it on her history of slugs/stillborns and older age. The seller said she was 6-7 years old I believe.

[EKS56]

For that matter young and old.

[jwolfe152]

well IMO this would be the last time to breed her because if im not mistaken, in captivity its 6-10 years is their lifespan IIRC so you may be adding an unnecessary risk, but me, this would be the last year. As for how young, i would think 1-1.5 years old, but i honestly dont know how off i could be. its not like there is a way to look and say "ok shes ready, have at it guys" other than maybe just the size, but like i said these are my opinion and should not be considered reliable in any respect lol :rolleyes:

[d_virginiana]

I've heard of females being large enough at 1 year, but I think it's usually closer to two (maybe more depending on size). My female was big enough to breed at about 1.5 but breeding season didn't happen till she was closer to 2. Of course, then she got sick so breeding season didn't happen at all this year. Though her and her future boyfriend immediately tried to lock up when I let her see him for about five minutes the other day so who knows...

[chris-uk]

An old female with a history of stillborn and slugs is a female I'd avoid breeding from. Consistent stillborns is possibly an indication that either the genetics are shaky. If she was unusual or rare it would be worth risking another mating, but your blackneck girl isn't too uncommon. I'd expect a female to produce an increasing number of viable young each year after first breeding, then peak (maybe around 5-6 years based on anecdotal information) and then I'd expect to see a decline in litter quality as she ages.

Youngest age can be controversial. Some people claim that starting them breeding young shortens their life, I've not seen evidence of that, and I think as far as breeding is concerned breeding every year without a break will have a bigger influence on a short lifespan.
In Europe Steven Bol is one of the most respected breeders working with garters, and given his extensive work with garters I place a lot of credibility on the information he produces. On his website he discusses his breeding techniques as well as those of people he works with. I understand that he tends to keep males and females together permanently and let them do what is natural. The youngest female he mentions is a 13.5 month old T. eques scotti, that was it's age when she gave birth.

It's also worth pointing out that some species grow and mature quicker than others, it seems that eques are big and fast growing. In my experience, the females that I keep and know the age of have certainly grown at different rates, my cuitzeoensis was huge after 18 months, my cyrtopsis (Western Blackneck) is over 2 years old and still not big enough that I'd want her to breed. As far as checkereds are concerned my albino would have been big enough this year aged 2, my normal I'd have waited until next year if I planned to breed her, but the normal 's sister (kept by a friend) was breeding size last year.
There's no hard and fast rules really.

[jwolfe152]

on Steve's site does it discuss anything about the courting/mating rituals? the reason im asking is that Ekoh has a good portion of his tail missing and was wondering if it could deter a female or him from mating for any reasons like the tail holding i have heard about. also could i get a link

[EKS56]

This is a "hobby" for me and not a business. I was hoping to be able to let the male live in the same cage as the female as was described by Chris per Steven Bol. But I don't want to endanger the female by doing that and I really don't want a huge number of snakes I don't need. So I guess I should keep the separated. :(

[jwolfe152]

well there is a chance that Steve may have the right idea about just letting things happen "naturally" you still may be able to keep them together because its really up to the female whether or not to mate correct? if so the female may just refuse to mate when she becomes a certain age, or mate and just keep the sperm indefinitely or even just expel it(i dont know if she can actually do that)...or on the other side of the coin she may just keep going till her last litter and she dies from the experience.

[EKS56]

I know this is silly, but they really do enjoy each others company.
But I don't want to kill my female breeding for snakes I don't need.

That's like this litter. I am more concerned with moving them in a responsible manner than making money off of them. I just thought it would be cool to raise a litter.

[EKS56]

I know this is silly, but they really do enjoy each others company.
But I don't want to kill my female breeding for snakes I don't need.

That's like this litter. I am more concerned with moving them in a responsible manner than making money off of them. I just thought it would be cool to raise a litter.

[jwolfe152]

yea i know what yea mean mine are almost always together. but as you know the ultimate decision is up to you. here is an idea, you could make 2 screened cages and sit them side by side it wouldnt be perfect but they could be close without an hanky panky going on

[chris-uk]

I know this is silly, but they really do enjoy each others company.
But I don't want to kill my female breeding for snakes I don't need.

That's like this litter. I am more concerned with moving them in a responsible manner than making money off of them. I just thought it would be cool to raise a litter.

I think the most pertinent part of your situation is finding good homes for litters. I was not the same position last year (regarding two snakes that seemed to do better when they were together, I ended up separating them once I had another male and female suitable sized to keep them company. I have to say, my Vlad isn't out as often as he was when he had Lacci with him but he's happy enough.

In the past I've seen mention of female snakes hitting a menopause, but I can't remember whether that was backed up with any evidence.

[chris-uk]

on Steve's site does it discuss anything about the courting/mating rituals? the reason im asking is that Ekoh has a good portion of his tail missing and was wondering if it could deter a female or him from mating for any reasons like the tail holding i have heard about. also could i get a link

I don't think a bit of missing tail will affect him mating, not unless he's missing enough that he can't "hold gails" with the female. If he's got enough to throw a twist around the girl he should be ok.

This is the page I usually refer to on Steven Bol's website :
Scott (http://stevenbolgartersnakes.com/publications/scotts-mexican-garter-snake-thamnophis-eques-scotti-conant-2003-in-the-wild-and-in-captivity/)
Other pages are more appropriate for non-Mexican species. I don't think he discusses the actual act of courting or mating, there's certainly some threads on here (I know there was some discussion after I posted a few photos of my Cuitzeo's hemipenes...).

[d_virginiana]

well there is a chance that Steve may have the right idea about just letting things happen "naturally" you still may be able to keep them together because its really up to the female whether or not to mate correct? if so the female may just refuse to mate when she becomes a certain age, or mate and just keep the sperm indefinitely or even just expel it(i dont know if she can actually do that)...or on the other side of the coin she may just keep going till her last litter and she dies from the experience.

Unless something was wrong enough with the female that she physically couldn't support a litter (as in becoming gravid then miscarrying), I think she would probably continue to have litters. Since their purpose in the wild is to produce as many offspring as possible before dying and they don't really have self preservation instincts in that area, I think it's more likely that one would continue trying to mate until it ended up being fatal.
Not to say there's no 'snake menopause' after which she physically couldn't become gravid anymore, but I would worry about it being dangerous before it reached that point.

[EKS56]

This will probably be her last. A couple of reasons. It may be hazardous to her health and I don't want 20 snakes I can't move.