New litter of Easterns (WC)

[wxknight]

I found a few orange and reddish easterns where I live in MA. One or two of them dropped about 60 babies one night and the next day a third dropped 10, then one I though was a male dropped even more. So I had around 80 neonates slithering around the tank. I let the adults and all but 12 of the babies go since. Here are some pictures.
And I was wondering if babies get more colorful with age because I figured I'd have more red and orange ones but they aren't showing amy crazy colors. They have gotten a little more colorful after a few days though.

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[chris-uk]

Welcome to the forum. :)

I don't keep Easterns, but I believe the colours will intensify if the particular scrub has a disposition to a red or orange. However Eastern Garters are highly variable in their colouring so you may not get the same sort of colours as you saw on the mother.

[d_virginiana]

They do color up as they get older. How many are you planning on keeping? If you don't want to keep 12, I'd say you should pick the 3-4 that have the brightest coloration. Looking at the pictures, there were a couple that stood out above the others color-wise.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Do you have any pics of the adults?

[wxknight]

I plan on keeping 12 for now until they show their colors a little more, then I'll let a few more go. There are two herping spots within less than a mile of each other where I live. One has nearly all normal yellow easterns and the other has 25% or so red/orange ones. I'll post some more pictures and some of the adults.

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[wxknight]

A couple more. I don't have many of the third female which looks similar to the more red one, but the checkerboard pattern had a hint of green which was cool.
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[wxknight]

A long time ago I found about 20 garters under some rugs near a pond. One of them had a neon green checkerboard, unlike the usual bluish ones you see around here. I'm gonna be looking for that trait next time I go garter hunting and see if I can try and get a litter of those. I'd call it an emerald eastern, if the morph doesn't already exist in the trade. Has anyone else ever seen a bright green one? And it's different than the darker maritime green, or brownish green you see on easterns, it's an almost fluorescent green. If I'm lucky maybe one of the 12 I have will have the trait since one of the mothers had a hint of it.

But anywho, I'll keep you guys posted on the babies and toss some more pictures up in a week or so or whenever they shed next.

[wxknight]

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I thought this one looked like a flame, but lacking the deep red. Has that whitish stripe and more colorful flank stripes.

[wxknight]

I thought I posted pictures of the adults but I don't see them here so let me try again. Here's 2 of the 3 larger females.

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[wxknight]

Here's the whole gang. 3 females, 1 male and 1 smaller one that could be a female but not sure.
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[wxknight]

Heres the last few good pics I have of the adults.
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[BLUESIRTALIS]

The really orange ones are nice!

[snake man]

I live in MA two, what area are you in?

[wxknight]

Essex County. I catch some of mine in an area between Harold Parker and Boxford State forests. In fact one locations (different from where the snakes I posted were caught) is in the North Andover side of Boxford State Forest. Garters, ribbons, milks, waters, racers, blandings turtles, theyre all there. The place I caught the snakes I posted was near a "dump" for compost and leaves and such in North Andover in northeastern MA.

[snake man]

That's funny I'm also in Essex county I might have to try some of these spots out.

[rickymar81]

Very nice looking girls you got there. congrats with the scrubs

[EasternGirl]

Wow...a litter of 60! I have heard of easterns popping out litters that large but...wow. My eastern female had a litter of 30 twice...the first time they were all stillborn, the second time all but three were stillborn...then she had 30 jellies this year. Were all 60 scrubs born live?

[wxknight]

Well, I didn't count but there were at least 60. It might have been two litters though cause 2 of the females looked thinner. One female was bigger so I was thinking one had 20ish one had 40ish. Is that normal? For several females to have litters within 24 hours of each other? Cause there were more the next day from the third female, which had about 10 but were slightly bigger neonates. There were maybe 5 still borns in total between 3, possibly 4 (one really small female) snakes. Only 1 of the neonates died a couple days later, before I put water in the tank, possibly from dehydration. The 12 I have now are doing well and eat almost everyday the last five days or so.

And Snake Man, I'm quite territorial about my spots but I figure if you're on a snake forum you're one of the few people I'd tell lol, since I know you'll be good to them. I'll try and post a map of exactly where they are, but one hot spot is near a quarry in North Andover at the end of Sharpner's Pond Rd. The spot with the red ones is near the soccer fields/compost site off the same road. At the quarry there is an area surrounded by young pine trees that is about an acre of rocky vernal pools. On a good day between April and early June you can find 15-20 adult snakes of various species. Some days you'll see 2 or 3 4-5 ft racers that climb up the pine trees when theyre spooked. Another spot nearby I've seen a group of 20 or so male garters congregating near a hole just after hibernation in March.

[EasternGirl]

I know we have discussed on here the possibility of females in close proximity triggering one another's hormones. I would think that it makes sense for them to give birth around the same time like that. Sorry about the stillborns and the little one that died...but it sounds like you have quite a few babies on your hands! Good luck with all of them!

[snake man]

I would just use them to look no keepies :D. Thank you for sharing.

[wxknight]

The garters are doing well and bulking up. I took some pictures two nights ago just after feeding them earthworms. After a couple weeks they are starting to show a little more color too. Uploading pics in a bit.

And no worries Snake Man. If you go there and find anything post some pics. You can probably find a few snakes this time of year but Spring is a guarantee.

[wxknight]

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When the snakes get full of worms they show their patterns a little better. You can see a few of the different patterns and colors, especially the last one of three.

[wxknight]

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A couple nearly stripeless ones in this pic.

[guidofatherof5]

Do you feed in that enclosure?

[wxknight]

Yes. I usually throw the worms in an area were there is as little dirt as possible so they don't eat too much other none sense. Sometimes they run off into the dirt though because the other ones try and steal their worm. Just fed them again and one got so fat it threw up then ate half of what it regurgitated lol.

[guidofatherof5]

You might consider feeding away from the substrate. A separate container or containers. Best to not ingest any substrate.
Just my opinion.

[wxknight]

No doubt. Yeah I guess that would make sense, maybe a Tupperware container with some paper towels. I'll give it a shot next time when I find another batch of worms.

Is feeding them strictly worms when they are less than a month old ok or should I try to find some small tadpoles or chopped up fish?

[StrmChasr]

Its pretty amazing how much easterns can vary. Mine look nothing like the ones you got.

[wxknight]

Just had a feeding. They're growing like weeds. Eating pretty much every day, fat as can be and then significantly thinner the next day. Crazy metabolism garters have.

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[wxknight]

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I fed them in a clean container this time so they wouldn't eat any dirt. Still plenty of food fights though, hah.

[wxknight]

Does anyone know the laws in Massachusetts for wild caught/captive raised garter? Are they illegal to trade? Just wondering because I plan on giving a few away. If it's not legal I'll probably just give them away if anyone interested. If that isn't a possibility I'll just return the ones I don't keep to the wild.

[guidofatherof5]

Don't know but I'll make a call tomorrow to find out for you.

I did find this:
https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXIX/Chapter131/Section23

[wxknight]

Thanks. Laws always seem very confusing and ambiguous to me hah. It's not illegal to kill garter snakes, and I read you can be in possession of two wild snakes at a time. I have 12 captive raised snakes. I wonder if that counts as wild caught still. There was also some emphasis on if wild populations are affected. I'm not too worried about that because garters are a dime a dozen in these parts and I kept about 10% of the litter so I don't think will have much impact on wild populations. If it's legal to kill them I don't see the harm in selling a couple, but who knows.

[Light of Dae]

Garter Snake Forum - Garter Caresheet (http://www.thamnophis.com/index.php?page=caresheet)

Have you read the caresheet yet? It has wonderful suggestions on better substrate then sandy dirt.... As well as some food suggestions other then parasite filled tadpoles...

Try chopping the worms smaller to avoid food fights as well. food fights as cute as they can be can be damaging to the snakes mouth and should try to be avoided. As far as substrate goes I love newspaper pellets n paper towel....

Very cute little ones.

[guidofatherof5]

I guess it would help if I put this in the correct thread.


Just got off the photo with Mr. Mirick. According to him you may keep 2 of any unprotected snakes species in MA. You may give away or release any babies from those snakes. He hopes they would be released in the area the parent came from. Selling is a whole other ball game as that requires a permit. He said if you have any other questions feel free to contact him.
Peter Mirick 508-389-6300 MA Fish and Wildlife

[wxknight]

Thanks for the input guys. As far as selling them seems like it's complicated so I'll probably hang on to all 12 for a few months then keep the best 4 or 5. Then perhaps I'll give 2 or 3 away and keep 2. I'll keep you guys posted on how their colors develop and if anyone on here wants 1 or 2 feel free to ask. As far as the ones I already released (about 70-80 of them) I scattered them about a 50 yard radius of where I found the parent snakes, which were all found very close to each other.

I've kept garters and other species of snakes for years but I reread the care sheet cause I needed a refresher. I just had them in a bit of dirt while they are small but I'm gonna switch to paper towels, and when they are bigger maybe some reptile mulch or aspen. Right now I feel I'd never be able to find them in any deep substrate so paper towels will be good while they are small. I no longer feed them in the tank, I put them in an empty Tupperware container a few at a time to keep the food fights at bay.

I'll post a couple pics in a bit.

[wxknight]

Here's some pics. Tried to show a bit of the contrast in colors and patterns. Got one or two real dark ones and a couple nearly stripe-less ones.

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[guidofatherof5]

Nice looking little scrubs.

[wxknight]

Thanks. The one on the left in the last pic almost looks akin to a dekays snake cause of the thick vague stripe. I'm hoping that dark one keeps getting darker and maybe becomes malanistic. I know there are populations of melanistic ones in parts of eastern Mass, but I think those might be born all black. Time will tell. I think next photo shoot I'll take a picture of each snake individually and make a side by side comparison of them.

[wxknight]

Ok here they all are, numbered. lol.9556

[guidofatherof5]

12 nice looking scrubs.

[wxknight]

Interesting how number 5 doesn't have the 2 dots on his head. Possibly a couple others too.

[guidofatherof5]

Interesting how number 5 doesn't have the 2 dots on his head. Possibly a couple others too.

Look really close. Sometimes they area very faint.

[wxknight]

I think one of my neos is an anery. It doesn't look like those crazy anery red-sided one Scott F has that are black and blue but it's really dull colored and all my other snakes seem to have much more orange and yellows than this guy. He might not be cause his background color in some pictures looks brownish which could have a hint of reddish in there, but maybe it's a hypo-erythristic or axanthic. In the middle picture hes the one on the right. Tell me what you think.

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[wxknight]

His underside and chin are almost white. He's pretty much just whitie and gray, which a hint of gray. I have another almost stripless one like him and he has noticeably more color than this one.

[wxknight]

Found 6 garters at my spot the other day. A couple neonates that could have been the ones I released, and a nice female yearling with a bad attitude. I'll post a picture of the overgrown habitat I found the parent snakes at, and a picture of the yearling garter I found the other day.
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I also put my babies on paper towels and redid the tank a bit.
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[wxknight]

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One of my orange ones. A couple in shed now too so hopefully I'll have some pics post shed when they are nice and vibrant.

[guidofatherof5]

Very nice.

[wxknight]

Had a big ol' feeding today and a couple high yellows have shed. A couple more in shed now. First pic got four snakes with nice contrast in patterns. Second one is a newly shed yellow. Third another ball of contrasting patterns.
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[wxknight]

Some updates and pictures. Got a new reddish one at the same spot that's in shed right now. Anery, veriation of 'em, high yellow, orange, another variety of three.
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[guidofatherof5]

Healthy looking little scrubs. Thanks for the update.

[Frenchie]

On The first pic one of the females has a nipped tail :-O
A couple more. I don't have many of the third female which looks similar to the more red one, but the checkerboard pattern had a hint of green which was cool.
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[wxknight]

Update. Had a few photo shoots lately. They are looking great and have more color every shed. The biggest ones probably about 8 inches and the smallest runt about 5. I feed them all about the same some days some eat less though and others are very aggressive feeder. One escaped in my room but luckily I saw him slithering against my wall a few days later. So all 13 still kicking and healthy.
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[wxknight]

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Got a couple nice orange ones and one reddish/orange. Then still some local normal yellows.

[wxknight]

Does anyone think the redder one could be a morph? Like erythristic or low end flame? Or you think it's just a redder normal? I'll also post more pics soon of what I think is an anery that I posted a couple weeks about.

[wxknight]

9862 Heres one of the more stripless one. The "anery" looks just like this one but with less color. Totally white underneath and no ornage/red and very little if any yellow.

[guidofatherof5]

Good looking scrub.

[wxknight]

Update. It's been a few months. All 12 babies are doing great and getting big. Lots of variation in size. A couple are over 11 inches and the smallest runt is only 7.5, but they all average about 9.5 inches, at about 6 months old. Their colors have really livened up. Unfortunately my potential anery died from stress because I force fed it when it hadn't eaten in days : ( I felt awful about it. But I got them in a 5.5 gallon with a little plastic tree branch they like climbing on. Been feeding them worms about 3 or 4 times a week and fish once a week (tuffies). Here are a couple pics, I'll upload more later. (That's a different tree not the one in the tank)

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[wxknight]

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Had a "fall colors" filter on my camera. The other photo is showing some of the size variation.

[wxknight]

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Them up in their tree. Size relationship to hand with one of the bigger ones.

[guidofatherof5]

In the first photo it appears they are looking for or expecting something to be delivered to them, I wonder what it could be.

[wxknight]

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Update: Garters are doing well. The biggest one about 13 inches now. Grew about 2.5 inches in a month! Most about 10-11 inches now. Here's a pic of "red" shedding in his tree and some of the gang fighting over a fish. I think I was feeding them too often before, like 4-5 times a week. I read they're supposed to be fed worms twice a week. I thought that seemed low but maybe when they're young it works to feed 'em more. I'm gonna feed them fish about once a week and worms twice a week now though, cause I know feeding them too much can be harmful to them. They've got an amazing appetite though. They'll eat whatever I give them. One of 'em ate pinky parts so I'm gonna introduce more rodents as they get a little bigger.

[wxknight]

I keep track of their length and shed schedule now too. They shed on average about once every 3 weeks. They're sure growing up fast. I got a new 24megapixel camera too so Ill upload some photos from that soon.

[wxknight]

What do you guys do for heat? I have a heat pad on during the day and a light. They seem to congregate to the warmth and are really active when the heat pad is on, which I guess is expected. Do most of you guys keep a heat pad on part of the tank daily? Sometimes I give them a break with the heat pad off for a day or two so they can cool down and relax more. But I always have it on when I feed them and right afterwards to keep the metabolism up. Does anyone keep heat pad on 24/7 or is that excessive?

[slipknot711]

i live in RI i gotta find me some cool garters this year

[Manitou]

wxknight (https://www.thamnophis.com/forum/members/wxknight.html) wrote: Does anyone keep heat pad on 24/7 or is that excessive?

It's excessive. (and yes, I know this thread is 6yrs old, thank you)

[guidofatherof5]

I offer cool and warm hides so they can decide what they want. 24/7/365

[MNGuy]

wxknight (https://www.thamnophis.com/forum/members/wxknight.html) wrote: Does anyone keep heat pad on 24/7 or is that excessive?

It's excessive. (and yes, I know this thread is 6yrs old, thank you)

No. All my heating elements turn off at night. A cool down period at night is normal and healthy. I live in Minnesota and I don't heat my snakes' tank at night even during the winter.

Good luck.

[Manitou]

365 Guido? So are you saying that you don't brumate?

Well, the reason I replied to the OP (not that he'll ever read this) that a heat pad on 24/7 is excessive is because I live relatively near his locale (Essex County, MA) and I know that summertime temps between sunrise and mid-afternoon there can fluctuate by ~50 degrees Fahrenheit. And, the OP states that the snakes are WC. So, hundreds of generations of his snake's ancestors have become habituated to nightly temperature fluctuations to the point where it is now needed for optimal health.

Now, if he had stated that they were WC from Florida, or that they were not WC but were, for example, F7's, F8's, etc, which more than likely would have been slowly weaned off temperature fluctuations then my reply would have been different.

I tend to believe that wild northern Garters undergo a "mini-brumation" most summer nights, when their metabolism slows down substantially (July heat waves are the exception to this). And that this is beneficial to them (yes, even with a lump of a meal in their midsection). Their engines were not designed for 6th gear all summer long. They are not Ball Pythons or Boas or another tropical species and require very different care.

I learned this the hard way.