Hormonal component to shedding?

[d_virginiana]

I've been wondering about this since Harley's shed issue, and now my parents' rescued rat snake is making me wonder again. So, when Harley had her emergency sheds, ALL my other snakes shed very close to that. Having another 2 year old, a yearling, and a 13 year old, that was a bit of a strange coincidence since they all have very different shed schedules. And this happened twice during her whole skin ordeal.

I was talking to my mom tonight, and the ratsnake they rescued is going into an emergency shed (has been blue for a few days, so I believe the 'blue-belly' phase was probably about a week ago). Well, she said both their blacknecks (which share a tank) have gone blue and shed within the last week or so.

That leads to my question... Has anyone else noticed anything like this? I don't think it happens normally, but I was wondering if there's some sort of hormonal feedback going on during emergency sheds. I imagine the snakes would be producing a lot more of whatever chemicals signal shedding to induce an emergency shed, and maybe that's enough to trigger sheds in other snakes?
I was trying to figure out what good this would do in the wild, and the only thing I could come up with is that normally snakes aren't in close proximity, but if they are they are pretty much on top of each other. If one has an infection or something that triggers and emergency shed, it might be beneficial for the other snake to shed soon before any sort of infection had the chance to become advanced.

idk if this is just coincidence, but I'm definitely going to look for this if mine have emergency sheds in the future.

[guidofatherof5]

I've been wondering about this since Harley's shed issue, and now my parents' rescued rat snake is making me wonder again. So, when Harley had her emergency sheds, ALL my other snakes shed very close to that. Having another 2 year old, a yearling, and a 13 year old, that was a bit of a strange coincidence since they all have very different shed schedules. And this happened twice during her whole skin ordeal.

I was talking to my mom tonight, and the ratsnake they rescued is going into an emergency shed (has been blue for a few days, so I believe the 'blue-belly' phase was probably about a week ago). Well, she said both their blacknecks (which share a tank) have gone blue and shed within the last week or so.

That leads to my question... Has anyone else noticed anything like this? I don't think it happens normally, but I was wondering if there's some sort of hormonal feedback going on during emergency sheds. I imagine the snakes would be producing a lot more of whatever chemicals signal shedding to induce an emergency shed, and maybe that's enough to trigger sheds in other snakes?
I was trying to figure out what good this would do in the wild, and the only thing I could come up with is that normally snakes aren't in close proximity, but if they are they are pretty much on top of each other. If one has an infection or something that triggers and emergency shed, it might be beneficial for the other snake to shed soon before any sort of infection had the chance to become advanced.

idk if this is just coincidence, but I'm definitely going to look for this if mine have emergency sheds in the future.

What makes you think more of this chemical is produced in and emergency shed as compared to a normal shed? Just curious.

[d_virginiana]

idk. Maybe not 'more' necessarily, but maybe a different cocktail of hormones or something. Could be that the sheds occur on a normal schedule, but a spike in stress hormones or immune system function can cause an emergency shed? Kind of like how dogs shed normally, but under extreme stress the shedding rate dramatically increases (actually had that confirmed by a vet when we wondered why our hyper-nervous chihuahua started shedding so much when we took her to the vet lol. Seriously, it was enough that we wondered if she had something wrong with her).

Like I said, this could totally be coincidence, but I thought it was very intriguing that it happened twice with Harley, and then seems to have happened with my parents' rescue snake. Probably wouldn't have thought about it if I hadn't seen so many emergency sheds lately :rolleyes:

[guidofatherof5]

I'll see if I can find some related studies or articles.

[jwolfe152]

im having a hard time finding anything at the moment

[chris-uk]

I've got nothing to back this up, but it's not unusual for me to have half a dozen snakes shed within a week of each other, then no sheds for a month before another batch. I've not had any emergency sheds, so if there is something going on it may happen during normal shedding cycles. I've also not looks at the dates to see whether there's any statistical significance to the convergence of shed dates. Whether there is a communal influence or not, it certainly doesn't affect all snakes equally because my infernalis are housed together and all three follow their own shed cycles which are about the same length between sheds and spaced apart by a couple of weeks.

But I do wonder if it is something hormonal, like the way womens' menstrual cycles often sync when a group of women live together.

[EasternGirl]

I don't know about emergency sheds, but I have definitely noticed a pattern with my snakes shedding around the same time. It seems like once one sheds, they all start shedding...especially those that are housed together. I can usually guarantee that if I have snakes together in an enclosure, if one sheds, the other is soon to follow.

And you know...in reference to what Chris said about women's menstrual cycles being in sync...I recently noticed that when Sadie passed a bunch of Jellies...Cee Cee started passing little jelly-like smears all over the substrate...it was odd.

[jwolfe152]

im sure there is something to it whether hormonal or whatever i googled few different times worded different every time and could not find out anything maybe steve will have better luck

[d_virginiana]

It just happened again. My two albino males (one yearling and one about 2 years) just shed within a couple hours of each other, even though it only really made sense for the yearling as it hasn't been that long since the 2-year-old shed last. He's eating normally and perfectly healthy. No skin issues, and still living up to his name (Stupid).

You know though... He's by FAR the most skittish and non-dominant snake I've got. I wonder if that's playing a part in this.

[chris-uk]

Curious. We might get to a point where we have enough examples of convergence in shedding that it will become statistically significant. We'd also need to be recording the number of occasions where sheds between the same animals do not happen at the same time. At the moment I think I have more non-synced sheds than synced sheds.

[d_virginiana]

I think I might start recording it, as well as the temperament of the snakes involved. When everyone sheds at once, my female or oldest male are usually the first to go blue, followed a few days later by the younger ones. I don't think they have anything so complicated as an age-based hierarchy or anything, but I don't think it's unreasonable that a very timid snake might be more susceptible to hormonal or other signals than a calmer, more assertive snake.

Of course, my four snakes are in no way a large enough sample group. I guess this means I need to go out and find more garters. :rolleyes:

[guidofatherof5]

Multiple sheds at the same time can also be caused by the feeding and growth cycles. Everyone is fed at the same time and grow at relatively the same rate so they're shed times are close to each other.
Just a thought.

[d_virginiana]

I have no idea what's causing it, or if it's just been several months of weirdly coincidental sheds, but it's interesting.

[guidofatherof5]

I have no idea what's causing it, or if it's just been several months of weirdly coincidental sheds, but it's interesting.

Very interesting. Keep us posted of this situation.

[chris-uk]

I'm in a bit of a shed fest.

Four days ago Adora started the fest, she was overdue by around 30% compared to her median shed gap.
Then came Sybil yesterday, who was a little early (about 20% less than her median).
Then Lipwig today, who was really early at 50% of his median time.
Lastly was Twoflower this evening who was only a few days over his median.
Nobby is currently blue, and will be shedding much earlier than expected.

So, if Adora Belle (adult female radix) has triggered a cascade... I'll discount Twoflower because he was due anyway. Lipwig is interesting because he's also a radix and lives in the viv above Adora (also interesting is that he's gone from blue eyes to shedding in less than 48h, he'd normally shed 3-4 days after blue eyes). Nobby is a parietalis who lives with Adora, so her going into shed much earlier than expected is also interesting. Sybil doesn't strike me as being significant as she was fairly close to an average gap.

It's just one group of close sheds, but a couple of them are interesting.

[chris-uk]

I'm in a bit of a shed fest.

Four days ago Adora started the fest, she was overdue by around 30% compared to her median shed gap.
Then came Sybil yesterday, who was a little early (about 20% less than her median).
Then Lipwig today, who was really early at 50% of his median time.
Lastly was Twoflower this evening who was only a few days over his median.
Nobby is currently blue, and will be shedding much earlier than expected.

So, if Adora Belle (adult female radix) has triggered a cascade... I'll discount Twoflower because he was due anyway. Lipwig is interesting because he's also a radix and lives in the viv above Adora (also interesting is that he's gone from blue eyes to shedding in less than 48h, he'd normally shed 3-4 days after blue eyes). Nobby is a parietalis who lives with Adora, so her going into shed much earlier than expected is also interesting. Sybil doesn't strike me as being significant as she was fairly close to an average gap.

It's just one group of close sheds, but a couple of them are interesting.

I'm now up to five sheds in five days, and Nobby is still to shed. My little radix girl shed this morning, I'd not seen her eyes go properly blue but was working away Weds/Thurs so the slight hint of blue I saw on Weds before going away must have been the start of her own blue phase. Iodine was overdue this shed (I don't have figures as this is just her second shed with me, but she is 4 months old and had gone 5 weeks) so I don't see this as an unexplained shed caused by a hormonal influence.

[d_virginiana]

Huh, that's pretty neat. It'll be interesting to see if there's anything to that pattern; especially if older, more confident snakes tend to trigger it more than younger, more skittish ones.

[Mommy2many]

I can watch with my group of 11. I have noticed they tend to shed around the same period as well, though some are not in the same room and I have a mix of easterns, radix, puget, dekayi and ribbons.

[jwolfe152]

its weird i have 4 easterns one big female i just got she was in her blue phase when caught, i brought her home and 2 days later Ekoh went blue, and i just get home from a day at Kennywood and kind my smallest one full on blue. i got one more Amaunet and if she goes blue within a week i would say something is definitely going on whether it be hormones or a coincidence. without LOTS of testing we will never really know unless everyone starts noticing these trends and someone doing research can look into it (preferably not that Hoser guy though lol)

[chris-uk]

You mentioned "his" name... This thread will show in his daily Google trawl for pages mentioning his own age and you'll have brought him back to our peaceful forum... :(
:D

We would need a real scientist to do any research. I'm imagining something involving chemical analysis of the air around shedding time - the component would need to be airborne because we're observing synchronised shedding across different vivs.

[jwolfe152]

We would need a real scientist to do any research. I'm imagining something involving chemical analysis of the air around shedding time - the component would need to be airborne because we're observing synchronised shedding across different vivs.

mine are cross viv also and your right i just wasnt sure how to word it for most to understand.
i would love to do research on any and all herps i have always loved them, even when i was scared of them and thats why i never really messed with them. i was always afraid of being bit or running across the wrong kinds mainly copperheads but im fairly confident i could handle an encounter with one with either a stick to move it (not smash it to pieces lol) or just leave it be and move on. the internet is a very powerful tool for anyone wanting to learn at least a basic knowledge of anything(as long as its not bomb, explosives, or drug making lol)

[d_virginiana]

Hm... IS there a way to measure airborne hormones from reptiles? Hormones in a blood analysis would probably echo a hormone increase intense enough to be airborne, but that would be risky considering garters' small size. The thing that got me started thinking about all the different stages in shedding and what may trigger them was that first shed after Harley's skin issue. Where she hadn't been producing the outer layers of skin for months, you could actually see the new skin forming in detail. Very interesting stuff.


mine are cross viv also and your right i just wasnt sure how to word it for most to understand.
i would love to do research on any and all herps i have always loved them, even when i was scared of them and thats why i never really messed with them. i was always afraid of being bit or running across the wrong kinds mainly copperheads but im fairly confident i could handle an encounter with one with either a stick to move it (not smash it to pieces lol) or just leave it be and move on. the internet is a very powerful tool for anyone wanting to learn at least a basic knowledge of anything(as long as its not bomb, explosives, or drug making lol)

Unless they've already been upset by a dog (or an idiot with a shovel) they're some of the most chill snakes I've ever dealt with. That's been my experience anyway; I'm not advocating anyone else to go out and try it. IMO they're probably so chill because they know they could really mess you up if they wanted to.

[jwolfe152]

i figure what they would do is synth(or at least try and get something close) the hormones and release them in a controlled way to several samples and see what happens.

i know they can be chill when i was real young, i dont remember my age) i was running around near a creek and jumped right over top of one landing only a few inches away from it. i was young so i freaking ran and screamed and all it done was lift its head a bit no striking that i remember. but my uncle came and was all WTF are you screaming about and i told him i saw a big ol snake, well he went to see if it took off and no it was still there but he went and got a shovel and killed it still to striking or anything. i found out later he killed it because he had seen a huge increase in them where all the kids ran and played and just wanted to be sure nobody got bit. i know its still wrong to kill it but he is pretty scared and i dont think anyone on that hill had the balls to just relocate it. now i have talked to a lot of neighbors about snakes and told them if they cant scare it off come get me and i would attempt to get it into a plastic tub or something, they dont want to kill them because of the rats and mice but they are all pretty scared of them too.

[chris-uk]

Hm... IS there a way to measure airborne hormones from reptiles? Hormones in a blood analysis would probably echo a hormone increase intense enough to be airborne, but that would be risky considering garters' small size. The thing that got me started thinking about all the different stages in shedding and what may trigger them was that first shed after Harley's skin issue. Where she hadn't been producing the outer layers of skin for months, you could actually see the new skin forming in detail. Very interesting stuff.

I was thinking maybe gas chromatography (or maybe the atomiser type of kit that are used for detecting traces of drugs or explosives, I'm sure the kit is available to configure for different substances) analysis from swabs inside the viv. If you were going to extremes in experimental design you could drive airflow between vivs and use some filter media to try to trap whatever you want to analyse. If the hormone is airborne it should be detectable from the air or surface swabbing... assuming of course you had a vague idea as to what you are looking for and the equipment is sensitive enough to detect it at the levels that influence shedding in the snakes.

All very much a thought experiment, because when you consider the equipment requirements, the time period and space requirements to keep the subjects for the duration, it's not an experiment that has any chance of being considered practical.

[d_virginiana]

Especially if there's a social component to it as well with smaller, more timid snakes being more likely to have a shed triggered by larger, calmer ones (I swear, Stupid has NEVER been the first one to go blue, ever). The social interactions of garters haven't even really been studied-- which is ridiculous since they can't be TOO complicated. I mean, that in itself would be groundbreaking since king cobras are so far the only snake species documented to have complex social interaction.

[chris-uk]

We need to find someone with either a pot of cash and an interest in garter snakes, or someone who can direct areas of study at a university. Whilst this sort of research would be groundbreaking, I don't see a commercial payback from it, so it would need to be academic research for the sake of research.
Another research project to add to the list of projects to fund when I win the lottery. :)

[d_virginiana]

We need to find someone with either a pot of cash and an interest in garter snakes, or someone who can direct areas of study at a university. Whilst this sort of research would be groundbreaking, I don't see a commercial payback from it, so it would need to be academic research for the sake of research.
Another research project to add to the list of projects to fund when I win the lottery. :)

I have a whole load of wildlife research projects I'd love to fund. The top of the list is still my suspicion about possum saliva (Really, I think there is some serious potential to find new antibacterial agents there).

[jwolfe152]

you never know when research can be of any significant gain till they do it. take penicillin, oh look mold, nothing to learn there.

[chris-uk]

you never know when research can be of any significant gain till they do it. take penicillin, oh look mold, nothing to learn there.

Unfortunately the era of gentleman scientists is long gone. Most research is done by people paid to do it, and the people paying tend to pay for things that have some sort of benefits at the end of the project.

[Stefan-A]

Unfortunately the era of gentleman scientists is long gone. Most research is done by people paid to do it, and the people paying tend to pay for things that have some sort of benefits at the end of the project.
Fortunately. If people weren't getting paid for it, nobody would do it.

Of course they don't get to conduct basic research often enough.

[kueluck]

Yesterday I posted on my thread about the shedding thing. My 3 girls that are housed together do this. Time between the first one showing signs of shed and the last one completing shed is about 3 to 4 weeks. I do log in each shed and measure it if not in pieces. I only have the three so it's easy to keep up with.

[ConcinusMan]

"I do log in each shed and measure it if not in pieces" so did I until I realized that snakes were shrinking between measurements. :cool:

Sometimes the shed gets stretched, sometimes it shrinks in low humidity. In any case skins are not an accurate way to measure the actual snakes.

[kueluck]

Oh I know this, I just do it for my own curiosity. Exact snake length is not important to me. My girls are not for breeding, they're my BLF (best legless friends).
"I do log in each shed and measure it if not in pieces" so did I until I realized that snakes were shrinking between measurements. :cool:

Sometimes the shed gets stretched, sometimes it shrinks in low humidity. In any case skins are not an accurate way to measure the actual snakes.