Black Rat Snake Rescue

[EKS56]

My beagle alerted us to something at the outbuilding. A Black Rat snake had become caught in some deer netting. There is significant damage but we will do what we can to get her healed up and hopefully back in the wild. This will take some time.

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[EKS56]

Here are some more pics of the injury.

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[EKS56]

I'm sorry I have put this the wrong area. If a moderator see's this please move it to the correct forum.

[jwolfe152]

wow i wonder how long it was in that netting for? i hope she gets better thats some bad stuff

[guidofatherof5]

Hydration would be first on the list then treat the injury. Nice save.

[EKS56]

With in 10 minutes of getting her/him in the house she drank and drank and drank. We put a coat of neosporin on the wounds and poured a 50/50 peroxide water solution on the wounds also. He acts much perkier tonight. Has been showing very little aggression considering what's going on. I'm concerned about internal damage. Time will tell. I might add he ( i haven't checked but I think it's a he) has passed some urates.

[jwolfe152]

well that is very good its drinking and that there is little aggression considering what its was just through. good luck with him

[d_virginiana]

I've been talking to them about this snake since the post, and based on what they said, I'm hopeful that there's not any internal damage. Time will tell, but I think this snake stands a good chance of surviving :) Plus, they have access to the vet that helped out when I found Turtle.

Also, I wanted to say that this is the second animal that our beagle, Bonnie, has saved from netting by standing and barking at it for an extended period without hurting it lol. This was the first one
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[EKS56]

I realize that this snakes brain is about the size of a BB but do you think it knows we are trying to help it?

[jwolfe152]

i don't know i mean i know they feel pain but i don't think they can understand compassion its been a wild snake with its fight or flight always on. i mean the best you could do is be slow with it and make sure its fed so hopefully it wont attack out of hunger or fear, because your big and grab for it, its thinking oh crap its gonna eat me. but i'm sure you know some of this.


did you ever see the supposed photo of the "cobra" and the puppies in the well? i think it was in india, but the only reason the pups were not bit was they didn't mess with the snake. that snake could care less about protecting or maternal instinct. you know what i mean

but thats not to say after releasing the snake it wont be back in your yard looking for a handout or being more tame than you expect.

[snakeman]

Just let the snake go. It has a better chance at survival. They are very resilient. I found a yellow rat snake in Florida that was clearly half run over at one point in its life. Save the snake some stress.

[d_virginiana]

Just let the snake go. It has a better chance at survival. They are very resilient. I found a yellow rat snake in Florida that was clearly half run over at one point in its life. Save the snake some stress.

Please explain how a snake with an infected wound and some difficulty moving stands a better chance at survival if released into an area with dogs and cats roaming around than it does if the infection is treated and the wound is allowed to heal up before it goes...

Snakes are taken from the wild and kept as pets all the time; I doubt the stress of being in captivity is going to kill it. Yes it might survive if released now, but don't pretend like getting medical treatment actually decreases the animal's chance at surviving.

[Light of Dae]

I realize that this snakes brain is about the size of a BB but do you think it knows we are trying to help it?



I think to a degree they can understand or learn that we are just helping them out. They have the capacity to see we aren't eating it or doing further harm...
I saw a huge dragonfly get caught in a spiders web last summer and I much liking dragonflies compared to spiders and having seen a decrease in the number of large dragonflies opted to save it. As I pulled it from the web it fought and fought till I had it out and started cleaning it's wings... Then it stopped fighting and just held on to my finger as I pulled at the wings and picked at it's legs... It stayed on my finger for a good 3 mins after I was done, then flew off but circled back twice right in front of my face before flying away...

I think most living creatures can realize when they are being helped... to a degree... :)

[Stefan-A]

I realize that this snakes brain is about the size of a BB but do you think it knows we are trying to help it?

No. I don't think that apart from a few exceptionally intelligent, social species, animals have any concept of "help".

[EKS56]

There are a couple of wounds I am really concerned with. They appear to have some infection in them. We'll keep dousing them with peroxide and neosporin. But I really don't like the looks of them.

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[guidofatherof5]

Any chance of getting some Baytril?
Enrofloxacin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrofloxacin)

[EKS56]

No. I don't think that apart from a few exceptionally intelligent, social species, animals have any concept of "help".

I have seen some humans that couldn't tell when they were being helped. :confused:

[EKS56]

I might could get the Vet to come off some Batril. Is it supposed to be good for reptiles?

[guidofatherof5]

Injectable can cause problems at the injection site.
Oral isn't near as dangerous. Talk to your Vet. able the situation. Maybe there's something better for this type of injury.
Please keep us posted on this.

[EKS56]

At what point should I offer this snake some food? I was really surprised when he drank water immediately.

[EKS56]

We have a really good vet who openly admits reptiles are not his specialty. Which is cool. Better than having him BS me.
I would be concerned with getting an oral antibiotic in him and I'd think an injectable would be out. I'm hoping I can get this done with a topical.

[guidofatherof5]

If the infection is bad a topical isn't going to do the job.
A syringe with oral is easy to administer. Garter or rat snake it's all the same.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chidxGRdT_w

[d_virginiana]

I'll be in Eden both Saturday and Monday next week. If you get an oral antibiotic by then, I can give it to him.
If Jerry's not comfortable dosing something so small, talk to me and I'll give you the info for the exotics vet I took Harley to.

[jwolfe152]

There are a couple of wounds I am really concerned with. They appear to have some infection in them. We'll keep dousing them with peroxide and neosporin. But I really don't like the looks of them.


i don't know how much different a snakes is compared to humans, or how often you use it or how much for that matter, but, the peroxide COULD be doing more harm than good if used to often. the way it was explained to me for my ears, labret, surface, and eyebrow piercings was that while the peroxide does remove the bacteria it also removes other things in the skin that inhibit the healing process, same with alcohol. i didn't know if you knew that or not but just throwing it out there. also the best way to wash any kind of wound is with just antibacterial hand soap such as dial. but like i said i don't know how different this info would be for reptiles.

[d_virginiana]

i don't know how much different a snakes is compared to humans, or how often you use it or how much for that matter, but, the peroxide COULD be doing more harm than good if used to often. the way it was explained to me for my ears, labret, surface, and eyebrow piercings was that while the peroxide does remove the bacteria it also removes other things in the skin that inhibit the healing process, same with alcohol. i didn't know if you knew that or not but just throwing it out there. also the best way to wash any kind of wound is with just antibacterial hand soap such as dial. but like i said i don't know how different this info would be for reptiles.


I believe the peroxide is being diluted and used once a day on an area of the worst wound that had some sort of insect larvae growing in it. From what I understood, the other treatments were with hibiclens (much milder than peroxide) or neosporin. At least last time we talked about it, that's what was going on.

[jwolfe152]

i know the hibiclens is good stuff for wounds. i just wanted to make sure because a lot of people just want to use alcohol and peroxide and think thats the best way to do it, when it can actually hurt. i think the diluted peroxide would be good over the full peroxide. i got one more question, the big place on his back where it looks like the scales have just been slid over and kind of bunched up. how is that doing? as in have you had to remove any of the extra skin? or is it hard to clean that area?

[EKS56]

That's looking a little better. Right now I'm trying to clean up the necrosis and clean out some maggots that have decided to set up shop. He was feeling a little better today. I could tell by the increased strikes and being less tolerant of the cleaning process.

[guidofatherof5]

Thank you for the effort you are giving this snake.

[jwolfe152]

That's looking a little better. Right now I'm trying to clean up the necrosis and clean out some maggots that have decided to set up shop. He was feeling a little better today. I could tell by the increased strikes and being less tolerant of the cleaning process.


could the maggots be used the same was they use them on some people? i mean leave them there for awhile so that they will clean away the necrotic tissue and not the living stuff? im not sure the conditions they use them or if they use a certain kind and what not just thought it could make the cleaning a little less stressful but like i said there are a lot of questions i don't have answers to in the use of them.

[guidofatherof5]

Not the same maggots. Medical maggots are disinfected. These are disease carrying maggots.

Maggot therapy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maggot_therapy)

[jwolfe152]

ahhh ok i kinda figured they had to do something to them. good link

[EKS56]

This is day four. The peroxide solution did little or no foaming today and I didn't see any maggots.
Here are some side by side photos of the largest wound for progress comparison.
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[EKS56]

i don't know how much different a snakes is compared to humans, or how often you use it or how much for that matter, but, the peroxide COULD be doing more harm than good if used to often. the way it was explained to me for my ears, labret, surface, and eyebrow piercings was that while the peroxide does remove the bacteria it also removes other things in the skin that inhibit the healing process, same with alcohol. i didn't know if you knew that or not but just throwing it out there. also the best way to wash any kind of wound is with just antibacterial hand soap such as dial. but like i said i don't know how different this info would be for reptiles.


We are discontinuing the peroxide applications as of today and will not resume unless the maggots reappear. As I mentioned earlier the foaming has ceased and from now on out we will stick to the Neosporin. Here is a link to an article that backs up what "JWolfe" posted. I certainly think the peroxide had it's place. I could tell the maggots really didn't like it and vacated immediately.

Claim that hydrogen peroxide aids healing fizzles out | The San Diego Union-Tribune (http://www.utsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070717/news_lz1c17fact.html)

[jwolfe152]

wow i didnt know there was ever research done on the topic. like i said, i always heard it from the tattoo and piercing parlor i go to, but never from a doctor(not that i have even asked a doctor) but never the less im glad i could help the big guy out even if just a little.

[EKS56]

He's looking better. I think I may try to feed him Saturday.

[guidofatherof5]

He's looking better. I think I may try to feed him Saturday.

Great.

[jwolfe152]

that is good news how is his behavior? is he still striking and being defensive? what do you plan to feed him?

[EKS56]

He is still tolerating interaction but I have held actually picking him up to a minimum. I'll try a large pinky on him. He could handle much larger but I'm still a little concerned him getting the food past the wound area's. They may have lost some of their elasticity.

[jwolfe152]

i would think that if its still wet it should still be elastic but if its dried and scabbed i would stick with smaller stuff. that is just my thinking

[EKS56]

The nice thing about the Neosporin is that it prevents the wound from scabbing.

[guidofatherof5]

I would think scabbing over would be a good thing.

[d_virginiana]

I would think scabbing over would be a good thing.

It doesn't prevent scabbing, just reduces scarring. A lot of times it seems like the wounds don't develop the crusty sort of raised scab when you treat them with neosporin.

[guidofatherof5]

It doesn't prevent scabbing, just reduces scarring. A lot of times it seems like the wounds don't develop the crusty sort of raised scab when you treat them with neosporin.

OK, thanks

[EKS56]

Day seven of the Black Rat snake rescue. He's looking and feeling much better. Forget all that talk about how docile he is/was. That was when he was 3/4 dead. Now that he is feeling better he will gladly lay one on you. He still looks scruffy but I think there is a real chance he will make it. I haven't seen her in a couple of years but we have a huge female Black Rat snake that lives in this area that I bet he was looking for when he got tangled in the netting. I'll give him another week and we may let him go.
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[guidofatherof5]

Looks like you've got an emergency shed coming up. You'll probably see some bleeding at the injury site for the next few sheds. I'll be honest, I'm glad to hear about the aggression as long as it's not pain related.
All-in-all I think you are doing a great job.;)

[jwolfe152]

[QUOTE=EKS56;248154]9275QUOTE]

are those bite marks on the thumb? thats is great he is doing better i know he looks better in the pics. good job dr lol

[EKS56]

Yes :eek: My daughter came for a visit and he laid one on her.

[jwolfe152]

awwww how sweet lol

[d_virginiana]

I suggested that they keep it until it successfully sheds on its own. Where that skin behind the wound is bunched up still, I see it coming off in two pieces at least and I think it almost definitely will need assistance.

Yeah, he bit me lol. I wasn't being very careful though. I didn't want to manhandle him or restrain him at all because I didn't want him to strain the area around the wound at all. He calmed down a little after I got him up and even rested his head against my arm for a second or two; but the second anything moves in his periphery he's got his mouth open ready to get it.
He did seem to enjoy looking out the window at the sunshine for a bit though. :)

[jwolfe152]

He did seem to enjoy looking out the window at the sunshine for a bit though. :)

yea i bet he did, every time i take Ekoh outside for a little sun he goes nuts wanting to get out of my hands and get in the grass

but at least he is very alert and acts correctly to it. i think that bodes well for his release when the time comes

[jwolfe152]

hey how is this guy doing now?

[d_virginiana]

My mom told me he went clear again, so he'll probably be shedding in a few days.

[EKS56]

Today was day 14 of the Black Snake rescue. When we went to check on him he had shed back about three inch's. I gently pulled it off back to the larger of the wounds. We made sure he had a moist environment to help with the rest of the shed. Tell me more about the emergency shed?

He ate like a pig. He had refused food until tonight and he ate 10 large pinkies. Yes, 10 pinkies. He would have eat 10 more if we had fed them to him.


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[guidofatherof5]

It is really looking good. You are doing a great job. What a great update.
I take it the wounds opened up with the shed? Be sure to treat those open areas. Glad to hear she's eating. She looks very alert, which is a good sign.
You'll probably get a few more quick sheds over the next couple of months.

[EKS56]

There were several raw looking places but none were bad enough to bleed. The shed came off back to the worst of the wounds and stopped.

[guidofatherof5]

You might have to do a backwards peel to help out.

[jwolfe152]

WOW she is looking good, its good to hear she is eating now. depending on how long ya keep her you might want to think about buying bigger mice 10 pinkies at a time just seems like a whole lot of baby mouse lol good job helping her out

[guidofatherof5]

Smaller food might be best for now, at least until she gets healed up.

[jwolfe152]

yea you're probably right i was not thinking about the stretching on the peeled skin. i was just thinking it was a lot of pinkies.

[EKS56]

I'm thinking this time period is pretty crucial. If He throws up or doesn't pass the food it's going to be a real bad sign.

[kerensa]

Its very good to hear that this poor snake is improving.

I'm very curious as to why you did not use ionic silver on the wounds? Did you consider it? Safe on snakes and effective... easy to use and get also.

K.

[EKS56]

Never heard of it?

[kerensa]

I first encountered it for human wound dressing in products like these:

Aquacel Hydrofiber Dressings | Aquacel AG With Ionic Silver At MedicalMega.com (http://www.medicalmega.com/category/wound-care/convatec-aquacel?ovchn=GGL&ovcrn=aquacel%20with%20silver&ovtac=PPC&ovcpn=Broad&gclid=CMDJ6-3I0rgCFcee4Aod93kApA)

I was amazed how well it worked.

later I found it in a liquid form here: Survive on Silver - Ionic Silver Hydrosol (http://www.surviveonsilver.com)

its actually very inexspensive for such an easy to use antimicrobial treatment.


Kerensa

[EKS56]

Cool, I'll have to check it out.

[Billie]

Incomplete shed due to injury. My husband and I assisted with the shed and got all the skin off. However, getting the shed off also removed the scab on the wound; therefore it is now a raw sore area again. However, it does seem smaller than before.

[jwolfe152]

wow that stuff sounds pretty cool i might have to get some for me and the collection of snakes i'm working on lol

[EKS56]

My wife has been doing just as much of the care as I have and I think we have got her on the forum.

[guidofatherof5]

Then this is for both you and your wife for the effort you've put into helping this snake.
Thanks for taking the time to care.
Starfish- "It made a difference to this one"

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//744/Clapping.gif

[jwolfe152]

well its good to know that she cares as much as you do most people wouldn't think twice about just cutting its head off, leaving it in the netting to die, or freeing it and just letting it go to die im glad both of you are not like this thank you

[EKS56]

Good news, the digestive system appears to be working from beginning to end.:)

[jwolfe152]

that is really good news, has it ate anymore than the first 10 pinkies?

[EKS56]

No, I thought I would give it a few days.

[jwolfe152]

yea well at least the plumbing works thats all that matters

[guidofatherof5]

Good news, the digestive system appears to be working from beginning to end.:)

Oh!, poo.

[d_virginiana]

Like I said, I'll work off a rat/pinky trade with you if you get tired of the ratsnake being a mouse-vacuum. Just let me know if you want a couple to try out. Higher fat content... Almost definitely cheaper overall since I think you're gonna be keeping this guy overwinter.
Haha, remember when you said you'd rather try a ratsnake than buying a nice, adorable, sweet, garter? :rolleyes: Karma must have heard you and sent this even-tempered angel.

btw, that was sarcasm lol. This snake is pretty much Satan, and I only handle it b/c I don't care if I get bitten. He does have plenty of personality though. You've gotta respect his intelligence; he immediately focuses on your eyes and face.

[EKS56]

Today is day 21 of the Black Rat snake rescue. Things are calming down a little. The shed came off in two pieces as was suspected. Still a nasty looking wound. It appears as if the first layer of skin with the scales on it is missing in an area about an inch wide. The the larger wound seems to be more narrow since the shed and there is no sign of infection. We fed him seven pinkies tonight.

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[guidofatherof5]

Looking good.

[jwolfe152]

that would still looks serious but MUCH better than before good job helping this guy along. will skin and scales grow back in the pink area or just skin and how does something like this look when healed? i know little cuts the scales are a bit deformed but i've never seen something this serious heal back up.

[guidofatherof5]

It will be scaleless(a few scales might return) in that area and will be a mixture of scar tissue and skin. It will be dark and silky to the touch.

[jwolfe152]

wow that would not be something good in the wild, as im sure it would get scratched up pretty good on branches and sharp rocks. then all the other animals that can sense/smell blood, but he probably would have been eaten by something way before that area got healed in any way.

[guidofatherof5]

Once healed it would be pretty tough, certainly not to be injured very easily.
The next 3 or so sheds will be the most critical time as the wound is healing.

[jwolfe152]

ohhh yea seeing as how its going to be more scar tissue than actual skin, yea, i never thought of it like that

[EKS56]

Day 28- Looks like he is getting ready for another shed. We fed him 6 large pinkies and had to hold them right on his mouth where he is blind preparing to shed. The wounds continue to improve but he still looks real scruffy.

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[guidofatherof5]

I really like this thread. Nice to see the rat is doing well and on the mend. Does it fed without any problems? (problems eating not attitude during feeding)

[EKS56]

Gobbles them down.

[mikem]

Good job with this guy! Are you going to release him after healed or you planning to keep it?

[EKS56]

The plan is to release him next Spring. I don't want to turn him lose too soon nor in the middle of Winter. I don't think he would ever be a snake that I would enjoy handling. Too bitey. :eek:

[guidofatherof5]

I think a Spring release would work best. Lots of rest and healing before back to the wild.
Have you sexed this guest yet?

[EKS56]

Not Officially. I'm thinking male because he is smaller than the females I have seen but I suppose it could be a young female. I'm still surprised at how quickly he took to feeding in captivity.

[d_virginiana]

Tail looks male.

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks. Hope he can get some weight on before the release.

So, does it look like the initial infection is gone and there's just healing taking place? Are you still treating the injury at all or just after a shed?

[EKS56]

After he shed the wound looked real raw so we put a coat of Neosporin on it. The initial infection has been resolved.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I also have a rescued netting snake this year as well. She is an eastern milksnake... she had exactly the same types of wounds on her. She is healing up really nicely, much like this animal. You might want to check your local laws before re-releasing the snake. Sometimes after a certain amount of time in captivity it's no longer legal or a good idea to release the snake. During it's time in captivity it can pick up things from other captive animals and feeders that don't naturally occur and then introduce them to the environment when released. Even if they haven't visually done this snake harm, it doesn't mean they can't wreak havoc down the road on something. This is one of the hugest contributors to how things like Chytrid Fungus keep spreading. Personally if you intend to have it through next spring I would consider adopting it out or keeping it yourself.

[EKS56]

I actually think Black Rat snakes are cool. They are the largest snakes in the area I live in. I have some time to think about it. It's not the friendliest snake I have had to deal with. I have to be careful even with gloves on. I have to consider though the snake is pretty roughed up so I have been avoiding picking him up and in turn we have been feeding him in the same tub we keep him in. He's no dummy, he has figured out biting the glove was nonproductive and he no longer goes for the glove but he'll come across the cage to get to my bare hand. :eek:

[EKS56]

Day-35 A good report. He had a complete shed from nose to tail. It came off in two pieces but was completely unassisted. Well I did pull about the last two inches off being impatient. The wound is getting smaller and this time it doesn't look nearly as raw. :)
He still looks a little scruffy in areas but I am real pleased with his progress. I'm still thinking I'll keep him over winter. If I do I'll need to get him a cage that is a little more comfortable. Right now the tub is more to my liking because it is more suited for a moist environment.

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[jwolfe152]

yea he does look much better good job

[guidofatherof5]

That is looking good. The scar tissue is developing nicely. Nice work on everyone's part.

If I were ever a rat snake with that type of injury I would come to you for help.
;)

[Mommy2many]

Nice job! He is looking so much better! Thank you for taking care of him instead of letting him suffer.

[EKS56]

Day 45 and I am much surprised at the improvement since the last shed. It looks as if the black scaly portion will eventually grow back together.

Day 1 Day 45
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[guidofatherof5]

I don't think so. It may pull closer together because scar tissue isn't as pliable and the scar tissue will turn more black in color.
Just my opinion.
It's looking very good. You guys have done a great job.

[jwolfe152]

wow the progress is amazing especialy how much the wound has "grown back" good job

[EKS56]

Day - 60 of the Black Rat Snake rescue and the snake is looking better than ever. Today he had a complete shed, all 4.5' in one piece. :)
Last night he ate 10 large pinkies and another 10 today. I plan to release him at our barn which should be ripe with mice for him to feed.
The guy that bails the hay from my pasture cut day before yesterday but hasn't bailed. I plan to wait till he bails for the added snake safety but I hope to have him released next Friday.
9641964296439644.

[guidofatherof5]

That is great. You guys did good.;)

[EKS56]

Day 65 will wrap up my Black Rat snake rescue with a release at my barn. Over the last week we loaded him up with 30 pinkies over 3 feedings so he is leaving with a full tummy.
We released him in a room in the barn that had a hole in the door. After an hour he had found his way out and was off on his way to do what it is that Black Rat snakes do. This has been good for the snake and a great learning experience for me and my wife. :)


Black Snake Release - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWoHSsCMDgM&feature=youtu.be)

[mikem]

Once again, good job with this rescue! Probably the luckiest black rat snake ever! :cool: