Sirtalis ssp?

[Sherrie]

Ok, so someone told me that sirtalis ssp are banned in Texas. I don't know all the subspecies, so not sure what ssp means. So does anyone know what that means and if they're banned in Texas? I know a bit about native species laws but not about this.

[Sherrie]

This was brought up when I mentioned valley garters. I know valley garters are illegal to sell in California, but don't know if that's the case in Texas and I don't know what ssp means.

[jwolfe152]

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/12320-snake-laws-texas.html

done a google search and found this i didnt read it all but hopefully it will answer your question

[jwolfe152]

from wikipedia

The abbreviation "sp." is used when the actual specific name cannot or need not be specified. The abbreviation "spp." (plural) indicates "several species". These abbreviations are not italicised (or underlined).[44] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_nomenclature#cite_note-jenks-45) For example: "Canis sp." means "an unspecified species of the genus Canis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canis)", while "Canis spp." means "two or more species of the genus Canis". (The abbreviations "sp." and "spp." can easily be confused with the abbreviations "ssp." (zoology) or "subsp." (botany), plurals "sspp." or "subspp.", referring to one or more subspecies. See trinomen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinomen) (zoology) and infraspecific name (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infraspecific_name_(botany)).)
The abbreviation "cf. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cf.)" is used when the identification is not confirmed.[45] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_nomenclature#cite_note-clowes-46) For example "Corvus cf. splendens" indicates "a bird similar to the house crow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Crow) but not certainly identified as this species".
In some contexts the dagger symbol ("†") may be used before or after the binomial name to indicate that the species is extinct.




Binomial nomenclature - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_nomenclature#Codes)

[Sherrie]

Ok so they were basically trying to tell me that all sirtalis are banned in Texas. But according to the first link you posted you would just need a permit to sell. They're not necessarily banned, if I'm understanding correctly.

[Sherrie]

Thanks for the help, by the way. :)

[guidofatherof5]

It's probably referring toT. s. annectens (Texas garter snake) which has a Texas range.
Thamnophis sirtalis ssp. annectens, used this way ssp means subspecies.


iNaturalist.org · Texas Garter Snake (Subspecies Thamnophis sirtalis annectens) (http://www.inaturalist.org/taxa/28374-Thamnophis-sirtalis-annectens)

[guidofatherof5]

Ok so they were basically trying to tell me that all sirtalis are banned in Texas. But according to the first link you posted you would just need a permit to sell. They're not necessarily banned, if I'm understanding correctly.

Best to contact someone in the Texas Parks and Wildlife legal division to clarify the the law to you.
4200 Smith School Road, Austin, TX 78744
(512) 389-4800 | (800) 792-1112

Be sure to right down the people's names you talk to as many times you can get conflicting opinions with regards to the interpretation of the code (been there, done that)

[Sherrie]

You're right. I may do that. The common garter snake or thamnophis sirtalis is on the black list, but I don't necessarily think that means fitchi.

[guidofatherof5]

You're right. I may do that. The common garter snake or thamnophis sirtalis is on the black list, but I don't necessarily think that means fitchi.

T. s. fitchi (Valley garter snake) doesn't come close to ranging in TX.

[Sherrie]

T. s. fitchi (Valley garter snake) doesn't come close to ranging in TX.
That's right, which is why the entire subspecies of sirtalis being banned in Texas makes no sense to me. Surely that can't be right.

[jwolfe152]

see where it said that Thamnophis sirtalis ssp was on the black list i thought that meant any subspecies of Thamnophis sirtalis that was native to texas

[Sherrie]

see where it said that Thamnophis sirtalis ssp was on the black list i thought that meant any subspecies of Thamnophis sirtalis that was native to texas
Well that would make more sense. Then it would also mean the person who gave me the info in my first post is incorrect.

[jwolfe152]

honestly im not 100% but thats my opinion and how i interpreted it but i would call someone to be 100% that and guidofatherof5 isnt someone i would correct unless 110% about something lol

[guidofatherof5]

honestly im not 100% but thats my opinion and how i interpreted it but i would call someone to be 100% that and guidofatherof5 isnt someone i would correct unless 110% about something lol

I make my share of mistake and need to be called out when it happens. I'm still and will continue learning also.

[Sherrie]

No I wasn't correcting Steve. I think we're on the same page. Lol.

[guidofatherof5]

That's right, which is why the entire subspecies of sirtalis being banned in Texas makes no sense to me. Surely that can't be right.

Making sense and laws don't mix very often.
Take for instance the "dangerous animal" list in my city code. Bears, lions, tigers, rhinos and snapping turtles. Who the heck put snapping turtles in the mix?
It wouldn't surprise me if all the subspecies of sirtalis were banned.

[jwolfe152]

No I wasn't correcting Steve. I think we're on the same page. Lol.

always good to be on the same page

i was just offering my opinion of what i read ive had so much help i want to start helping if i can this place is freaking awsome


I make my share of mistake and need to be called out when it happens. I'm still and will continue learning also.

i was meaning you know a hell of a lot more than me on garters and unless i knew 110% but if i read something different then i would ask an opinion not just jump on someone they was wrong.

[EasternGirl]

So...for some of the more experienced members...since Common Garter often refers to the eastern garter, T.s.sirtalis, does that mean that easterns are banned from being owned in Texas? That is odd to me. Or is the law saying that any subspecies under Common Garter family is banned? Again...odd to me.

Sherrie...usually, from what I have seen regarding laws on owning non-venomous snakes, they usually do not want people to own species that are not native to the area...they don't want non-native species being introduced into the wild. But, as others have said...it's best to check out the specific laws in your area. I know that there is a site online in Delaware that specifies what species are native and which are illegal to own. In Delaware, you cannot own venomous, large snakes such as pythons and boas, and any non-native garters.

[chris-uk]

So...for some of the more experienced members...since Common Garter often refers to the eastern garter, T.s.sirtalis, does that mean that easterns are banned from being owned in Texas? That is odd to me. Or is the law saying that any subspecies under Common Garter family is banned? Again...odd to me.

No law should ever use common names of any animal, and this Texas law that specifies T. sirtalis spp. is craziness, it's just vague and ambiguous. You can't specify that several subspecies are covered without stating which ones. I'd suspect that the law actually means all subspecies, which is a very broad brush.
It's not something that will affect me, but I'd be interested to know what the law does actually does cover in Texas.

[Sherrie]

Well I haven't called TPWD yet, but I am going to. Been really busy yesterday and again today, but I did find this. Not sure how old this information is.

Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research - Snakes of the American Southwest - Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis (http://www.southwesternherp.com/snakes/sirtalis.html)

[EasternGirl]

This is what I have been able to find so far: : Texas Administrative Code (http://info.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/readtac$ext.TacPage?sl=R&app=9&p_dir=&p_rloc=&p_tloc=&p_ploc=&pg=1&p_tac=&ti=31&pt=2&ch=55&rl=652)

This is the site I always go to when I want to look up snake laws...it is not giving specific info for Texas though: Summary of State Laws Relating to Private Possession of Exotic Animals (http://www.bornfreeusa.org/b4a2_exotic_animals_summary.php)

I have looked and looked online...I can't find anything that says you can't own a garter in Texas.

[Sherrie]

You can own garters in Texas. The question is if certain species are banned. Here's a link with some info, but it's still not completely clear to me, especially for the selling part.

TPWD:Frequently Asked Questions About Nongame Permits (http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/faq/huntwild/nongame_permits.phtml)

[chris-uk]

You can own garters in Texas. The question is if certain species are banned. Here's a link with some info, but it's still not completely clear to me, especially for the selling part.

TPWD:Frequently Asked Questions About Nongame Permits (http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/faq/huntwild/nongame_permits.phtml)

Based on the information in that link -
Keeping of Thamnophis sirtalis is not banned, but you'd need a permit to keep more than six. The blacklist includes T. sirtalis, and as subspecies are not mentioned my assumption would be that all subspecies are on the blacklist.
Keeping of native Texan garters is not banned, but you'd need a permit to keep more than 25.
You would need a permit to sell or trade any of the snakes on either the white or black lists.

But as with any laws, ignorance of the law is no defence, so the only safe option is to clarify the regulations with the department responsible for enforcement.

[guidofatherof5]

On the phone with the Texas State Herpetologist at this moment.

[guidofatherof5]

Here's what I found out from the Texas State Herpetologist (Andy Gluesenkamp-512-389-8722). He said that you make keep as a pet any native(Texas) Thamnophis. The problems come if you breed and want to sell them(you need a permit to sell)
If you purchase any Texas native Thamnophis from a out of State breeder you must have documentation that the parents and babies where not wild caught in Texas.
You may possess 25 Thamnophis from their "White List", this would be T.marcianus - Checkered Garter and T.proximus - Western Ribbon Snake
You may possess 6 Thamnophis from their "Black List", this would beT.s.annectens (Texas garter snake)

He hopes that there will be no wild collection of T.s.annectens - Texas Garter because of their declining numbers.
He suggested contacting Megan Russell in their "Permits" division for further help if needed. (512-389-4481)

TPWD: White List Species (http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/faq/huntwild/white_list.phtml)

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/faq/huntwild/black_list.phtml

[Didymus20X6]

Who the heck put snapping turtles in the mix?

Steve, as you like to say in your videos, Tank is an exception.

[chris-uk]

There's a couple others on the white list as well aren't there? T. cyrtopsis cyrtopsis?

[guidofatherof5]

There's a couple others on the white list as well aren't there? T. cyrtopsis cyrtopsis?

You are correct. Missed that one.
Western blackneck garter snake (Thamnophis cyrtopsis)

[Sherrie]

He said that you make keep as a pet any native(Texas) Thamnophis.

But does that mean you can't keep or sell non native species?

[Didymus20X6]

From what Steve says, I get that you can keep any non-native species. It's just that, with any native species, you have to be able to prove that it was not taken from the wild.

[guidofatherof5]

But does that mean you can't keep or sell non native species?

Good question. I feel like a dope for not asking. I'll drop him an email this weekend. Sorry about that.

[jwolfe152]

wow even reading the entire thread im still confused. i am sooo glad wv laws are simple, by law i do need to get a permit for Ekoh.

[guidofatherof5]

Good question. I feel like a dope for not asking. I'll drop him an email this weekend. Sorry about that.

Email sent. I'll report his answer when I get it.

[guidofatherof5]

Here was my question to the Texas Parks and Wildlife
Is there a code prohibiting someone from buying, breeding and selling non-native Thamnophis in Texas?

And the response:

No, not unless there are other laws involved (i.e. sale of SF garters, etc).

Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
Herpetologist
Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
4200 Smith School Road
Austin, Texas 78744
(512) 389-8722
(512) 389-8758 FAX
andy.gluesenkamp@tpwd.texas.gov

[Sherrie]

Thanks for looking into that Steve. I think that's how I would have read the TPWD website, but then someone who should know more about these things than me told me differently. Oh well, it's not really an issue for me anyway.

[Sherrie]

Good to know now, though. :)

[ConcinusMan]

There are 13 (?) subspecies of T. sirtalis or "common garter snake". In some states that ban keeping native species, they do not recognize subspecies and so you can't keep any sirtalis subspecies even if the subspecies you want to keep, doesn't occur in that state. Make sense?

Lets say completely theoretically, Oregon bans natives as pets and lets say T. sirtalis concinnus (red spotted) is the only subspecies of common garter in the state. If you want to keep an eastern (T. sirtalis sirtalis) which doesn't occur in Oregon you still can't have it because it is still a T. sirtalis. Many states only look at the first and second Latin name and ignore the third. So as far as the law is concerned, an eastern garter is the same as a native red spotted. Get it? By that scenario an eastern is still native to oregon even though they don't live in Oregon because technically all sirtalis' are the same species. They are all "common garter snake"

Same thing applies to T. elegans, or "Western Terrestrial" garter in WA. Since T. elegans vagrans (wandering garter) occurs in WA State, if they banned all natives you couldn't own a T. elegans terrestris (coast Garter) even though coast garters don't live in WA. They are still both "western terrestrial" and therefore both are considered native. Yes, I know. Ridiculous, but most wildlife laws are ridiculous, outdated, and archaic. They know this, that's why they look at each case when deciding weather or not to pursue charges. In many cases, such as keeping native garters in WA, they don't really care and don't prosecute anyway. The law was put into place to keep pet stores from selling locally caught animals and to keep people from catching and keeping game animals. Not to put kids in jail for keeping a garter they found in their backyard.

There never has been a legal way for pugets to get into the pet trade too. But once that snake crosses state lines, whoever buys it or keeps it is subject to the laws of their own state, not WA laws. So it's legal for a guy in Idaho to own, buy, sell a puget as long as it's not against ID law to keep T. sirtalis. (this just theoretical)

[jwolfe152]

There are 13 (?) subspecies of T. sirtalis or "common garter snake". In some states that ban keeping native species, they do not recognize subspecies and so you can't keep any sirtalis subspecies even if the subspecies you want to keep, doesn't occur in that state. Make sense?

Lets say completely theoretically, Oregon bans natives as pets and lets say T. sirtalis concinnus (red spotted) is the only subspecies of common garter in the state. If you want to keep an eastern (T. sirtalis sirtalis) which doesn't occur in Oregon you still can't have it because it is still a T. sirtalis. Many states only look at the first and second Latin name and ignore the third. So as far as the law is concerned, an eastern garter is the same as a native red spotted. Get it? By that scenario an eastern is still native to oregon even though they don't live in Oregon because technically all sirtalis' are the same species. They are all "common garter snake"

Same thing applies to T. elegans, or "Western Terrestrial" garter in WA. Since T. elegans vagrans (wandering garter) occurs in WA State, if they banned all natives you couldn't own a T. elegans terrestris (coast Garter) even though coast garters don't live in WA. They are still both "western terrestrial" and therefore both are considered native. Yes, I know. Ridiculous, but most wildlife laws are ridiculous, outdated, and archaic. They know this, that's why they look at each case when deciding weather or not to pursue charges. In many cases, such as keeping native garters in WA, they don't really care and don't prosecute anyway. The law was put into place to keep pet stores from selling locally caught animals and to keep people from catching and keeping game animals. Not to put kids in jail for keeping a garter they found in their backyard.

There never has been a legal way for pugets to get into the pet trade too. But once that snake crosses state lines, whoever buys it or keeps it is subject to the laws of their own state, not WA laws. So it's legal for a guy in Idaho to own, buy, sell a puget as long as it's not against ID law to keep T. sirtalis. (this just theoretical)


that was a very good, thought out, and explained answer

but yea that law is just stupid, it casts too wide of a net on the thamnophis species. also how do they go after people catching and selling the species for profit? i mean couldn't you just make a fake receipt of sale saying you got it from someone else?

[ConcinusMan]

I don't know about Texas but in WA and OR I know of no cases where they have pursued an investigation involving non-game animals. It's illegal to sell game meat or parts and in those cases a an undercover officer makes the purchase in order to get a conviction. Basically they've always had limited resources/officers and it's even worse now, so they prioritize and have always concentrated on busting game violators. The only snake that gets any attention and proactive protection is the California Mt. King.

[jwolfe152]

we have a law here in wv about selling wild game meat too. honestly you would think they would sell permits or something like that during hunting seasons that would allow people to sell the meat. but then again it would cost money to inspect places and make sure they are processing the meats properly, printing of the permits, and hiring more people.