Scale rot?

[ThamGirl]

I noticed some brown, dry areas on one of my females cyrtopsis a couple days ago. I though it was just some dust under the edge of the scales or something, but it has gotten worse, and now one of my males is showing symptoms of the same thing, but under his jaw. Both of them only show it on their vent side, and it doesn't seem to be restricted to one scale at a time, but goes right through some scales. It is a mid to dark brown, with no swelling, pinkness, or other signs of irritation. It has a crusty look, but I don't want to try to scrape anything off. They aren't rubbing or itching, but they have not yet shed since it appeared.

To give some background info- they are on a coconut blend substrate with some moss. All the plants in their enclosure are fake. I sanitize everything before adding it to the tank. I haven't had the tank set up long enough to have a cleaning regiment to discuss. Before this tank they were in a temp hold tank with a hide, water bowl, and paper towel. They are eating feeder guppies (though neither of the infected ones ate last feeding) about once every 5 days, as well as the occasional worm when I can convince them to eat it. They don't spend an excessive amount of time in the water, and are very good about basking. They have a lamp as well as ambient light, and the temp in their tank ranges from 72 in the cool side to 87 in the warm (they are Arizona natives and get cranky if I drop the temps any). Temp drops to about 75 all around at night.

I've quarantined the female and will be quarantining the male as soon as I get a new set up for him (I only have one quarantine tank). It really doesn't look like normal scale rot- anyone have any ideas? Sorry about the bad picture- phone's aren't really great for this kinda thing. I don't want to stress her too much, but I'll see about a better picture later tonight.
My other female and male are perfectly health and don't show any symptoms.


9128

[paulh]

Seems like a form of scale rot that I have sometimes seen. I'd get rid of the coconut and moss substrate and replace it with newspaper or some other paper product. I would take the affected snakes outside and expose the affected areas to direct sunlight for around 5 minutes daily, before the heat gets over 90 degrees Fahrenheit. The UV light is good for killing off that sort of thing, and window glass filters the UV out of sunlight. I would also apply Betadine first aid cream to the affected areas daily, after the sunlight treatment. Betadine is a first aid cream available at many drugsores. It is also a liquid preparation, but I like the cream better. The problem should shed off, but I would keep on with the sunlight and Betadine for 2-3 days after the shed. Sometimes the problem comes back if treatment is discontinued at shedding. If the problem comes back, start the treatment again. Good luck.

[d_virginiana]

I'd say quarantine both as soon as possible. As Paul said, switch them to a low-dust substrate like newspaper. Whenever I have small infections or injuries, I always just apply some liquid betadine to the area. Neosporin withOUT painkiller also works well to prevent infection and reduce spread of the infection.
Can you get a picture of the area on the male's head? I have limited experience with scale-rot, but what I've seen has looked more like a typical bacterial infection; kind of wet looking, a tiny bit puffy, ect.
If you feel nervous taking them outside (I know I have a couple 'darters' that would be a big escape risk if I tried to take them outdoors!) a UVB lamp will give the same sort of radiation as sunlight.

[ThamGirl]

They are both quarantined now- like I said, I put the female in the tank as soon as I could. I've put the male in with her until I can get another enclosure for him. I'll try to get better pictures of both the female, and the male tonight. The male also has it around his cloaca. I've sunned and treated both of them, so we'll see how it goes.

[d_virginiana]

I can't really tell by the first picture, but the way you described it as crusty looking, no swelling, ect. makes it sound almost like some fungal infections that I've seen. Also, the fact that it's apparently on the underside of the male's head. That's not an area that you'd normally expect to see scale rot since the chin area is held off the ground more often than the rest of the body.

[ThamGirl]

That was the one that really threw me off- if it had just been belly, I would have just figured it as some odd form of rot.
I will say, the humidity is very low in their tank (and my house in general.) It's hard to keep the humidity up in the middle of an AZ summer. I'm hoping that means that it isn't fungal...

[d_virginiana]

That was the one that really threw me off- if it had just been belly, I would have just figured it as some odd form of rot.
I will say, the humidity is very low in their tank (and my house in general.) It's hard to keep the humidity up in the middle of an AZ summer. I'm hoping that means that it isn't fungal...


Again, I can't tell based on the pic, so hopefully someone with a little more experience dealing with both will chime in. But high humidity is a big cause of scale rot, which is a bacterial infection. The bacteria thrive in wet environments. The fact that you have two snakes coming down with this in a very dry environment just doesn't seem typical of a bacterial issue...

If I were you, I'd take any snakes that had been housed with these two and find a temporary place to house them in 'quarantine'. Maybe just long enough to make sure it doesn't pop up on them, but since whatever this is seems to have spread from one snake to another I think it's safe to assume that it's either contagious, or is spreading around the cage environment. Also, I would do a complete break-down of the tank these two were housed in and 'nuke' it. Basically wash everything in bleach solution (I actually toss non-expensive decor in cases like this rather than take the risk).

How long between seeing this on the female's belly and noticing it on the male?

Depending on how aggressive a fungus is, a vet visit is sometimes necessary (based on more extreme cases I've seen before) but keep putting betadine on it. I've successfully dealt with fungal infections in fish using betadine. It's kind of a cure-all for weird things that show up on small animals.

[guidofatherof5]

I can't tell what's going on from the photo. Any chance for a closer photo?
When did these snakes shed last? In any event, a weak tea looking solution of betadine (povidone-iodine) and water certainly can't hurt this situation.
I have a feeling this is going to look much better after the next shed.
Keep us posted, please.

[ThamGirl]

Three weeks since the last shed- and I'm working on a closer picture. They are not being very cooperative, and camera phones suck for this kind of thing. I'll keep everyone posted on their progress, however.

[ThamGirl]

Here's the best I could get them to do. Sorry it's blurry- they were NOT happy about me rolling them over.
http://i1246.photobucket.com/albums/gg606/gaiasnorthpole/rot2.png
http://i1246.photobucket.com/albums/gg606/gaiasnorthpole/rot1.png
http://i1246.photobucket.com/albums/gg606/gaiasnorthpole/rot3.png

[ThamGirl]

Also, since the male had it on his jaw, I checked his mouth and there are no signs of infection, parasites, or other abnormalities.

[d_virginiana]

If you get a chance, you could take a small scraping of this (you said it was crusty). If it starts to get worse even with betadine, or doesn't seem to get better with a shed, you can take it to a vet and see what the issue is. The long freeze shouldn't harm the quality of a sample if you're looking for fungus or something...

But like Steve said, this looks pretty minor. Probably be fine with the betadine and shed off next time.

[ThamGirl]

Bit of an update here.
The female seems to be doing better, though the infection is still spreading (slower, thanks to the betadine treatments). She is active, eating well, pooping normally and does not appreciate my efforts to help her- basically, normal behavior for her.
The male, on the other hand, is doing much worse. While the infection has been shrinking down on him, he is rapidly loosing weight and muscle mass, is not interested in food at all, only passing urea (so at least he's drinking his water), is not nearly as active as he was, and seems to be having trouble controlling his rear half. I'm going to start a little force feeding tomorrow, a little bit daily, and see if that helps him. He came back negative for parasites, so I'm not sure what else could be going on.

[guidofatherof5]

I would say since the infection(?) is spreading it's time for a Vet. visit if that is possible. Antibiotic are probably needed.
You can also search the web for other alternatives/treatments but that has to be your call.

[ConcinusMan]

AZ wildlife officials have been finding snakes with the fungal infection that is sweeping across parts of the U.S. That (your pics) doesn't look like scale rot at all and the rest of the problems suggest a fungal infection. If so, it's definitely life threatening and sometimes difficult or impossible to treat. Only a vet can make the diagnosis though and determine what treatment is necessary.

[guidofatherof5]

USGS National Wildlife Health Center - Snake Fungal Disease (http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/disease_information/other_diseases/snake_fungal_disease.jsp)

[ConcinusMan]

Come to think of it, this looks exactly like a case a while back when a member posted pics of a garter with scabs around his mouth. Antiseptics didn't help.

[d_virginiana]

Tea tree oil is a commonly used anti-fungal for fish. I'd definitely try to get them to a vet ASAP, but until you can you can pick that up at most pet stores. Probably has a brand name, so you'd need to look at ingredients. I can't think of any reason it would hurt, does anyone else know about it?

[guidofatherof5]

Walmart has it in the Pharmacy area.

Spring Valley Pharmaceutical Grade Tea Tree Oil - Walmart.com (http://www.walmart.com/ip/Spring-Valley-Pharmaceutical-Grade-Tea-Tree-Oil-2-fl-oz/10316901)

[ThamGirl]

Thanks everyone for the advice and the information. I'll be looking up the info on the fungus spreading here in AZ- now I'll have to worry how likely it'll be to transfer to my other herps. I'll likely pick up the tree oil tonight and start a round on that.
Did another feeding last night- still no response from the male, and no fear response either from us moving around. Tried a force feed- he just spit it back up. At this point, with out bad he is doing and looking, I'm thinking of putting him down.

[ConcinusMan]

I should have mentioned earlier that force feeding is a bad idea. Even if you do manage to do get it down, it's far more likely to make matters worse than to do any good.

[ThamGirl]

I should have mentioned earlier that force feeding is a bad idea. Even if you do manage to do get it down, it's far more likely to make matters worse than to do any good.
In general or in this case?

[guidofatherof5]

I would say in general. There is usually something causing the not eating. Sometimes it's to help a health situation and sometimes it's caused be some health issue. I used to force feed non-eating babies only to have them always die. The non-eating was just symptom of a bigger problem/s.
Just my opinion.

[EasternGirl]

I am just getting caught up on this thread. Sorry to hear that you are having health issues with your snakes. Sometimes even the vets can't seem to figure out what is going on. I hate to mention this...because you probably don't want to hear this right now...but I have had a couple of snakes who seemed to slowly lose control of their bodies as if a paralysis was moving through them...they did end up passing. I only say this because I am still trying to figure out what caused it. I surely hope that you figure out what is going on with the male and that he gets better. If you do find out what is causing his problems...please let me know. It might give me some insight as to what happened with my two males. I will be thinking of you and hoping that your male gets well :) If I can help in any way, please let me know.

[d_virginiana]

I've heard of assist-feeding work, but usually in the context of larger snakes than garters. However, that's just getting the food started in the snake's mouth and they can still spit it out if they really don't want it. I think the process of getting the food through the neck and into the stomach is just too complicated to force in snakes if they don't help out.

On a side note, I imagine that the fungus is releasing chemicals into the body that are making the snake feel sick. That's how some parasites work too; the actual worm or whatever doesn't do the majority of the damage, but its waste and toxic secretions cause the animal to get very sick.

[ThamGirl]

While I understand peoples concern with force feeding, I feel like I have little choice with him- if he doesn't get some sort of nutrition in his body, he will NOT survive. He hasn't eaten in a long while, and the last time he did eat, he ate sparingly. So, I have a choice. I can let him starve to death, or I can attempt to give his body the ability to make a come back. I do not force feed lightly, I never have, but there are times where it is the lesser of the two evils.

[ThamGirl]

I am just getting caught up on this thread. Sorry to hear that you are having health issues with your snakes. Sometimes even the vets can't seem to figure out what is going on. I hate to mention this...because you probably don't want to hear this right now...but I have had a couple of snakes who seemed to slowly lose control of their bodies as if a paralysis was moving through them...they did end up passing. I only say this because I am still trying to figure out what caused it. I surely hope that you figure out what is going on with the male and that he gets better. If you do find out what is causing his problems...please let me know. It might give me some insight as to what happened with my two males. I will be thinking of you and hoping that your male gets well :) If I can help in any way, please let me know.
That sounds like a thiaminase issue- it causes nerve damage that can look like convulsions or paralysis.

[guidofatherof5]

Any chance we can get a few photos of this male?

[ThamGirl]

Any chance we can get a few photos of this male?
I'll see if I can get one tonight. Again- they are still going to be pretty poor quality. I'll even include a photo comparison to my healthy pair, to really give you an idea.. (Don't worry, they won't be in the same room or the same photo)

[ConcinusMan]

I have had a couple of snakes who seemed to slowly lose control of their bodies as if a paralysis was moving through them...they did end up passing. I only say this because I am still trying to figure out what caused it.

Sounds like a virus such as IBD or related virus, which will usually make them vulnerable to secondary bacterial infections or fungus infections.


That sounds like a thiaminase issue-

I don't think it does at all. Besides, they've been eating guppies.

[kerensa]

I am now very very very unhappy. I live in one of the areas they have found it evidently, and have not had any recent contact with wild or other snakes. One of my tiny ones has something that looks very similar (close to the first pic) that has been getting treated it with an antifungal, as the best the vet could come up with. He is tiny and active when trying to look so its hard to see for sure, He has some crusty stuff around the under side of the jaw and the cloudy eye, and no other evidence of anything elsewhere. He also spends enormous amounts of time soaking it. The anti-fungal treatment has not been super effective- but at this point its not like the write up is suggesting something more sure. He is in quarantine, but that is no guarantee of anything. He is the only snake here that shows any evidence of anything amiss.

Yes I will get photos to the best of our ability is anyone would like them for comparison purposes.
K.

I did read on the Aussie python group that tea tree oil is harmful to snakes. I'm not sure if its specifically to pythons- but I've been avoiding it in case.


USGS National Wildlife Health Center - Snake Fungal Disease (http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/disease_information/other_diseases/snake_fungal_disease.jsp)

[kerensa]

These do not look anything in the photo to the reality my male has, and has been treated for. The photos on the Link Steve posted are really quite good. I will post one for comparison if you think it will help you.

K.



Here's the best I could get them to do. Sorry it's blurry- they were NOT happy about me rolling them over.
http://i1246.photobucket.com/albums/gg606/gaiasnorthpole/rot2.png
http://i1246.photobucket.com/albums/gg606/gaiasnorthpole/rot1.png
http://i1246.photobucket.com/albums/gg606/gaiasnorthpole/rot3.png

[jwolfe152]

actually the pictures in the link steve posted the first 2 could be the same thing but they have probably had it for some time also it could be worse with humidity/temp fluctuations and your might not be so bad because of your husbandry. more of a constant temp/humidity, and less stress than the wild. just a thought

[kerensa]

actually with treatment, and more stable conditions, my male looks very close to the ones in the link, can't say he looks one bit better. Captivity and care do not seem to have made one iota of difference. The photo's ThamGirl posted, do not look anywhere as nasty as this does in person- and who knows, photos of it may not look anywhere near as nasty as it does in person either... I wish she had better photos, and of both snakes. It doesn't look to me like this did earlier either. It is very definitely something raised, its very very crusty like- its oddly colored sure enough, and its rough. When I first saw it I thought t was a bit of tilapia dried on, it has the same sort of sickly brown as dried tilapia...and tried to wash it off. since then its gone from a small speck to a U shape covering his Jaw, and he had treatment started when it was on only one side, and was about 1/6th- 1/8th the size it is now. Behavior wise, he is very sluggish, soaks himself and his head a great deal. He is likely to be soaking in his water dish most times of the day. According to the vet there is definitely a fungus at work. (pity there isn't yet a cure at work here)

K.


hmmm, editing. Having read the first post again, it sounds like maybe the males is familiar. Really wish I had thought to take pics every step along the way. the no swelling or anything raised sounds different however. maybe its just not happened yet. the rest sounds the same, but the pics don't look the same as what I see on mine. that doesn't mean a thing however. I certainly hope you don't have the same thing- its been viscous to my fella.



actually the pictures in the link steve posted the first 2 could be the same thing but they have probably had it for some time also it could be worse with humidity/temp fluctuations and your might not be so bad because of your husbandry. more of a constant temp/humidity, and less stress than the wild. just a thought

[ThamGirl]

Didn't see that they'd been on guppies.


Update:
The male finally died yesterday morning. Sad, but expected. The female, however, gave birth to seven babies! Her skin is looking much better, she's eating and active- so I really have high hopes for her. ^_^

[guidofatherof5]

Sorry to hear about the male and congrats on the new scrubs.

[ThamGirl]

Yet another update!
She has finally shed, and with that and her marked improvement, has been officially named Lamia. After her shed there are no signs of the infection! I'm continuing treatment anyways, until she gives me another clean shed. After that, she will go back with Bael and Nina.

EDIT: I should include, she's eating and drinking well, and gaining her wait back after giving birth. ^_^

[guidofatherof5]

What a wonderful update. Thanks.

[ThamGirl]

So, a not so good update now...

Lamia was doing great, but a couple days ago I noticed some very erratic behavior from her. She has been keeping her head up (at an almost 90 degree angle), and when she moves, she thrashes or rolls excessively and gets very little moving done. I'd be worried about a b1 deficiency, but she's been on Silversides, the occasional worm, and large guppies as treats from time to time- the same food as everyone else, and no one else is showing any issues. She's passing everything she eats and drinks fairly normally (though a tiny bit runnier than I like). She's gained most of her weight back from giving birth, she's clear of any jellies or stuck scrubs and there are no signs of infection, swelling, odd discharge or anything else to indicate any kind of parasites, bacteria, etc. Just neurological symptoms. I've got her in the quarantine tank still, a 15 gallon with a hide, newspaper, and a water dish deep enough to soak in. The temperature is within normal range and gradient, so that's not the issue. Since she's still quarantined, her water and bedding get changed daily, her tank cleaned with hot water every couple days, soap every week or so.
I tried getting a video of her moving, but between her and my crappy phone, it didn't turn out. I'll try again tomorrow.

TLDR: Other than the really odd movements, she's doing fine- but the movement issues are getting worse.

[d_virginiana]

Normally, these sorts of problems don't improve once they start having neuro symptoms. However, if she doesn't seem to be in pain, you may want to wait a bit before giving up hope. Sometimes fungi don't just cause tissue damage at the site of infection, but release toxins into the body. Without knowing the exact fungus that was involved there's no way to know what toxins could be involved. They can affect the way certain organs function, inhibit absorption of vitamins and nutrients, ect. Especially with the nutritional strain on her body from being gravid that could cause a deficiency.
There's a good chance permanent damage has been done to the nervous system, but I think it's possible that this is a tox-related issue due to the fungus... Especially since you said her poo is runny. That's not something you'd expect to necessarily see with neuro issues. More with abnormal nutrient absorption... I have a female that the vet said was showing symptoms of acute kidney failure a few months ago that turned out to be due to toxins released by parasites.

You could try flushing her system by getting her to drink as much as possible... If you have a good herp vet she could go to, they may be able to do blood work and see if there's anything particular she's missing. The fact that she's still eating just makes me wonder if this is the typical 'snake death-rolling' set of symptoms we hear about so often... Those snakes typically act like they're in constant pain and don't continue to eat well.

[paulh]

Birth is always a nutritional stress. It may be helpful to add some vitamins to Lamia's food. I would give half a drop of a good bird liquid multiple vitamin on a worm or fish and not give more for a month. I've used a brand named Avitron without problems. By the way, bird vitamins are better for reptiles than human vitamins because birds and reptiles metabolize vitamin D3 better than the D2 variant. Human vitamins generally have D2.

Good luck.

[ThamGirl]

I'll give it a shot, but I'm not sure if it'll do any good- she's gone off her food.