Need Help with Starting Puget Scrubs

[airtight_python]

I had a female Puget drop a litter of 12 last night. This is my first garter snake birthing experience.

I've got them set up communally in groups of 6 with a large, but shallow, water dish and a hide kept moist with a sponge. Belly heat is provided at about 90 degrees across the rear 1/5th of a 10x12 tub.

I've had a few set up in 4" deli cups for about half an hour with a glass tealight candle holder water bowl with a small (week or two old) guppy in it. They seem to have just discovered that there's food in there.

My questions are;

Exactly how large of prey and how often should I be feeding the little guys to ensure optimal growth without risk of over-feeding?

Also, where would one acquire worms small enough to start these guys on? I am aware that red wigglers are a no go. I will try scented pinky parts at a later date once they are started; or is it worthwhile to go ahead and see if they will start on pinky parts?

If kept at an ambient temperature of either 75 or 80/82 is supplemental heat a necessary requirement? If so, how long is it safe to leave them in the deli containers away from the heat while I'm offering food.

Any other advice you may think to give a new garter daddy is welcomed. I'm primarily a python guy. :/ Much appreciated.

[guidofatherof5]

Congratulations Dad. Be sure to introduce yourself in the "Welcome Lounge" so that we may give you a proper hello. Now, on to your questions.

If you have a safe area to dig worms then that is an option for finding small worms. Otherwise, a sharp pair of scissors will do the job. It's a bit messy but the small chucks you create will work great for newborn scrubs. Newborns are little eating machines and can be fed daily many times. I'm not experienced in keeping T. s. pickeringii (Puget Sound garter snake) and have never dealt with newborns. I'm sure some of the other members with that experience will post to this thread.
I feed my scrubs until they have a nice bulge in their belly. The heat is important as it allows the snake to thermoregulate itself and aids in digestion. I don't think you have anything to worry about when they are in the deli cup for feeding.
Here's a link to the forum care sheet which is always a good read. Your additional questions are always welcome.
So, how did a python keeper become a garter keeper?

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/welcome-lounge/

Garter Snake Forum - Garter Caresheet (http://www.thamnophis.com/index.php?page=caresheet)

[Selkielass]

Congrats and welcome to the Tham-ily!

Steves advice is sound. I try to make worm pieces not much bigger around than the snakes head. If you can find baby worms smaller around than the scrubs, just cut them up into three or four pieces to slow the worms down and reduce tug-o-wars.

I purchased a outer scrub last summer, and have found him to be a picky eater, prone to hunger strikes, but worms and guppies are nearly always accepted if he has enough privacy. He has also eaten cut up mice, tilapia, salmon and silversides when he is in an eating as mood.

Using sponges for moisture is a good idea, but be sure you change or sterilize them regularly.
damp paper towel can be thrown away every day. Sphagnum moss can be thrown away or rinsed and reused a few times- the acid seems to help inhibit some bacterial growth.

[ConcinusMan]

My questions are;

Exactly how large of prey and how often should I be feeding the little guys to ensure optimal growth without risk of over-feeding?

Also, where would one acquire worms small enough to start these guys on? I am aware that red wigglers are a no go. I will try scented pinky parts at a later date once they are started; or is it worthwhile to go ahead and see if they will start on pinky parts?

If kept at an ambient temperature of either 75 or 80/82 is supplemental heat a necessary requirement? If so, how long is it safe to leave them in the deli containers away from the heat while I'm offering food.

Any other advice you may think to give a new garter daddy is welcomed. I'm primarily a python guy. :/ Much appreciated.

First off, be aware that they might not even be hungry yet. I don't even usually bother with trying to feed them in the first 3-5 days (because in my experience they won't eat that soon) and sometimes they don't take the first meal until 2-3 weeks old so don't worry if they don't eat right away.

You can use large night crawlers, just cut to bits with scissors. Food does not have to be live/moving. Smell is enough usually. The problem I had is that they didn't respond to just worms and mixing with bits of tilapia only got a few eating. Tree frog larvae or froglets sure worked though but those can be hard to get. Makes sense because where pugets live, they are born at the same time that millions of tiny tree frogs are just starting to become terrestrial so that's their main food source until they grow. I'll be posting pics of the froglets in another thread soon.

Ideally your warm spot should be 80-86 but 90 is OK too but that should be localized to a small area with ambient being 70-75. Garters aren't like pythons/tropicals though. They can tolerate temps as low as 45 F so leaving them in cup at room temp for even a few days isn't going to hurt them. Heat can be a killer though. Anything above 95 (and that's still too warm) can kill quickly. They just can't digest well below 80-86. The key thing is to allow them to thermoregulate on their own so wide gradient is recommended so they can cool down to 65-70, or warm up to 90 at any given time. If your coolest spot is above 80 or so that's not ideal. These are just guidelines. They don't have to be precise.

They need moderate humidity and wide shallow water dish such as a cottage cheese lid / mayo jar lid. Just be sure to keep substrate dry except perhaps for a damp hide. Constant dampness/high humidity/condensation will cause health problems.

[airtight_python]

Thanks so much guys for the sound advice. I will heed every word.

As for python man getting into garters; I've got a little of everything really... anything that interests me for some reason or another. The Pugets being the color. Most of my 100 or so snakes consist of carpet pythons.

Eight of the 12 babies did take their first meal last night, on their second day of life. I'm stoked about that but I am worried about not getting enough food into them really. The delicacy of these guys will just take a little getting used to.

I've purchased a few pickeringii scrubs from Scott; this year and last. I lost the male last year due to an unknown reason shortly after receiving them. The 2012 female just hit size to accept whole pinky mice and is looking very good.

I actually just made myself a 24 tub mini rack for these babies. That'll make feeding time much easier to manage. I just got to add the flexwatt to the back of it and I'm gonna get on that right now...

Thanks again!

9123

[airtight_python]

Just thought I'd let you guys know that all scrubs have now eaten a guppy and a few have also taken worm bits. I'm offering fillet tonight and scented pinky bits in a few days. The tubs are working out great.

I do have a question. Is it normal for females to refuse food a while after birthing? She ate small meals periodically through gravidity.

[guidofatherof5]

Some eat right after giving birth and some wait. I had a radix female eat while delivering.
There's no set standard.

[EKS56]

HVAC man I see... :)

[guidofatherof5]

I actually just made myself a 24 tub mini rack for these babies. That'll make feeding time much easier to manage. I just got to add the flexwatt to the back of it and I'm gonna get on that right now...

Thanks again!

9123

I'm not trying to tell you how to house your garters but I think garters do much better if raised in non-tub/rack situations. They are a active and curious snake and love to explore. I think tubs are fine for some species but not garters. They want to see what's going on and I think it helps reduce their stress when they have a clear and open view of their surrounding. When it comes to garters, the more room the better. ;)
I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone who keeps garters in rack systems, this is simply my observations of the snakes.

[ConcinusMan]

Here's the frogs I was talking about. Baby snakes (pugets, concinnus') are born when these are in peak season in western WA/OR. There's so many that when I take a step, enough frogs to fill a 20 oz cup are seen hopping away. Ground and vegetation is teeming with millions of them. My baby pugets last year didn't really want to eat either but they respond enthusiastically to these or even anything scented with frog. So even if you can only get one frog, you can use it to scent chopped pinkies, worms, fish, whatever. http://i40.tinypic.com/p17y1.jpg (http://i40.tinypic.com/p17y1.jpg)

[airtight_python]

Thanks again all. Those are some tiny little frogs and being so plentiful I can see why they are the chosen good source.

4 of the babies are on fillet from tongs, 6 still on guppies from tongs and just two that still want live guppy. All have also eaten night crawler pieces. I'll be working them onto pinky parts and will be available then.

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks again all. Those are some tiny little frogs and being so plentiful I can see why they are the chosen good source.

4 of the babies are on fillet from tongs, 6 still on guppies from tongs and just two that still want live guppy. All have also eaten night crawler pieces. I'll be working them onto pinky parts and will be available then.

That's a good update. Glad to hear the scrubs are doing well.

[EasternGirl]

Just caught up on this thread..glad to hear the scrubs are doing well. My female eastern had a litter of 30 last year...only three live scrubs. All three are still alive and doing well, I am proud to say :)