Skin Improving after Parasite-related Dermatitis! (with pics)

[d_virginiana]

For those of you who don't know, for the last three or four months my two year old female flame Harley has been battling with some very severe dermatitis that we finally found was due to a parasitic nematode normally only found in mammals.
Apparently this parasite keeps the skin from producing certain chemicals that help 'hold it together' for lack of a better term. You know that glossy coating on most garters' belly scutes? Gone. Her entire body felt like it was scaleless. This caused some pretty severe scale damage (especially on the sides, where the scales bent when she curled due to being so weak) and movement difficulty.
WELL; finally some big improvement! Starting about two days ago, I noticed her belly begin to change color, and a sort of shine start to appear again. This has coincided with continued improvement of the back and side scales as well (still damaged, but they are shiny and appear to be getting sturdier) as well as movement that is pretty much normal.

Before I post the pictures:
Yes, there are lateral folds in her scales. This is due to how soft they were when the infection was in full swing; not a retained shed (vet confirmed) I have been keeping a very close eye on her, and her eyes have not gone blue, but she has a shed box in her 'hospital tank' just in case. The scales were just literally so soft they would bend right in two when she moved and have continued to do so throughout this whole ordeal.

No, this is definitely not an infection, despite the yucky color. There is no swelling, sensitivity, or negative behavior change (she ate two pinkies and three fish last night). Additionally, this color change happened uniformly. I believe her body has finally recovered enough to try and put up a new layer of skin for her first actual shed since this began.

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I know she's not completely out of the woods yet, but I'm hoping this is a big step in the right direction. She is a very special snake; even the vets always comment on how cooperative she is.

[guidofatherof5]

You must have reading my mind(I know, short story:D) I've been wondering how she was doing.
Glad things are improving. How's her eating been?

[Selkielass]

Im so glad she is improving!
You, or the mods should link this thread to the previous one so that readers in the future can see the whole story- actually discovering the parasite causing this still amazes me. Great discovery and hats off to you and your vet.

She's become quite a big gal- no wonder moving was deforming the softened scales.
Im looking forward to your next update.

[d_virginiana]

You must have reading my mind(I know, short story:D) I've been wondering how she was doing.
Glad things are improving. How's her eating been?


She's been eating like crazy. Houdini is being finicky right now (he's still eating well enough, but I have to guess what food he wants every time) and she gets all his leftovers as well.
I've been letting her 'meet and greet' with my new male through the glass since they're both in quarantine. He can't seem to figure out why she's not impressed by his courtship routine through the wall :rolleyes: Apparently she's pretty attractive even with a skin condition.

[d_virginiana]

Today's update: She's definitely getting ready to shed. Her face has started to go blue, and I'd expect her eyes to go within the next day or so. The skin on her back looks drier, but more connected; like it's getting ready to come off all at once like a proper shed.

One interesting thing though. When I was cleaning out her tub today, I noticed a very strange looking 'poo'. It was grey/green and very dense compared to normal. Also, it was formed into two solid lumps. Should have snapped a picture, but I had her out and there was no camera handy. My first thought was that they were slugs, but I figure that's not very likely in a two year old that's never mated?
My theory is that maybe her body is removing a lot more nutrients from the food than normal. She did essentially manufacture an entire outer skin in the span of a few days, so I guess that could be a possibility? Regardless, if anything starts looking bad I have access to a good exotics vet.

She's still acting normal, but I'm expecting that this will probably be an assist-shed. By the looks of things though, it should be less traumatic than the last one. I didn't realize at the time, but the degradation of her skin had already begun, so instead of being able to get the shed started and go from there, I had to remove the shed from each scale individually; took almost three days.
I really need to find the links and put this whole saga into one thread...

[guidofatherof5]

Today's update: She's definitely getting ready to shed. Her face has started to go blue, and I'd expect her eyes to go within the next day or so. The skin on her back looks drier, but more connected; like it's getting ready to come off all at once like a proper shed.

One interesting thing though. When I was cleaning out her tub today, I noticed a very strange looking 'poo'. It was grey/green and very dense compared to normal. Also, it was formed into two solid lumps. Should have snapped a picture, but I had her out and there was no camera handy. My first thought was that they were slugs, but I figure that's not very likely in a two year old that's never mated?
My theory is that maybe her body is removing a lot more nutrients from the food than normal. She did essentially manufacture an entire outer skin in the span of a few days, so I guess that could be a possibility? Regardless, if anything starts looking bad I have access to a good exotics vet.

She's still acting normal, but I'm expecting that this will probably be an assist-shed. By the looks of things though, it should be less traumatic than the last one. I didn't realize at the time, but the degradation of her skin had already begun, so instead of being able to get the shed started and go from there, I had to remove the shed from each scale individually; took almost three days.
I really need to find the links and put this whole saga into one thread...

They produce eggs whether they've mated or not. A 2 year old is very capable of producing ova (got it right this time Stefan)

[d_virginiana]

They produce eggs whether they've mated or not. A 2 year old is very capable of producing ova (got it right this time Stefan)

Interesting. I bet that's what it was then...

Would she be able to successfully mate later in the season then? I'm going to put them together as soon as she sheds regardless, but I would like to get a litter from them in the late summer (and he's made it very clear that the will is there on his part at least).

[guidofatherof5]

In most situations waiting until the next season is best. Some snakes do double-clutch but it's not the norm. I would also keep in mind her situation. Much of her energy has been spent fighting this illness. I would say she needs time to recover. You also want to make sure she's doesn't pass this skin/scale issue to him.
Just my thoughts.

[d_virginiana]

True... Regardless, I need to get her out of that quarantine tank soon. It's really not suitable as a permanent habitat. It was just necessary because any and all poo had to be cleaned out immediately to avoid re-introducing the parasites. I may have to play hopscotch with my tank arrangement soon if they can't live together.

By now, she shouldn't be contagious. It's been several weeks since the end of her treatment and she is still improving, so that's an indicator that her system is clean (any eggs that survived or were reintroduced after the last dosing would have grown into adults, and would be continuing to cause problems by now). I don't think that it is very easy for reptiles to get these parasites; there was about a month when I didn't think it was anything other than a bad retained shed that I didn't use any 'quarantine' type procedures, and nobody else got it (I've been watching closely for signs of this, and everyone else is healthy). But definitely better safe than sorry in this situation.

Assuming this shed goes well, the only reason I'd be keeping them separated would essentially be birth control (I'm still not 100% sure what I saw was a slug, but it's either that or her body is processing food very differently due to creating new skin. I guess I'll know once she goes again). At what point do you think it'd be safe to let them live together? Her weight has actually increased, so I'm just going by her skin health (not great) and behavior (normal) right now...

[kueluck]

Even with the skin condition she still looks beautiful. Good thing she's in capable hands, and thanks for the ton of info on this.

[Foxrun402]

Woohooo! You can do it Harley! I'm glad I read this! Made me feel much better, and I'm glad she is recovering and eating like a champ! Good news.

[d_virginiana]

Today's update: What I saw the other day were definitely slugs. Found more normal poo today; which is a relief. I kind of figured I wouldn't be breeding her this season when I realized how bad this skin condition was (I've still wanted to, and both her potential boyfriends are very frustrated, but I wouldn't put her with them untill I thought it was safe for her to have a litter) but at least now I know it's unlikely that she'd even be able to till next year. I do still plan on waiting until I can't tell she was ever sick skin-wise to let her in with anyone else.
As far as weight goes, she's still eating like crazy and has actually gained weight since this started.

Also, her eyes went blue yesterday, and her belly skin is starting to become 'clear' again like it does shortly after becoming blue (will get some pics tomorrow). The scales on her back and sides are still damaged, but they do seem to have mostly re-formed that hard outer layer of skin. She slept curled up in her shed-box (a round shipping container with wet paper towels) last night, so at least she know's it's there. The round shape seems to have helped her use the friction from her own body to remove dead skin throughout this ordeal.
Expecting a shed within the next week or so. I'll post any more updates with pictures as they happen.

[d_virginiana]

Saw the tongue-shed today, and she's been curled in her shed box most of the time. I'll wait till I see her actually rubbing to try and get the shed started before I intervene at all though. I want to give her the chance to shed off normally if it's possible.

[guidofatherof5]

Saw the tongue-shed today, and she's been curled in her shed box most of the time. I'll wait till I see her actually rubbing to try and get the shed started before I intervene at all though. I want to give her the chance to shed off normally if it's possible.

Good idea.

[d_virginiana]

Her eyes went clear again today. Normally, I would expect a full shed within a week, but I'm wondering if that time-frame might be a bit off now... Tonight, I noticed her acting a little off. She was clicking a lot while breathing. The new skin does seem kind of stiff and dry, but she was acting like it was very sensitive (jerking away when I touched her sides).
I looked at the scales on her face and near the vent, but they are definitely not ready to come off... I gave her a warm-water soak, and gently tried to see if anything would get started, but nothing was happening.
I closed her into the shed box for about an hour for tonight.

Any suggestions on when I should intervene? I'm worried, but I also don't want to remove it too soon. The clicking during breathing seems to be mainly when she is excited, and I wonder if it may be partly due to discomfort as the skin seems to be very sensitive. The breathing thing is definitely related to the shed though; I don't believe a RI would start up overnight like that.

Would giving it the week that I normally would wait for a shed be safe? I'm worried that if I intervene too soon I may ruin any chance to get a complete shed, and I REALLY want to avoid having to remove one bit by bit like last time.

[guidofatherof5]

If her eyes went clear yesterday I wouldn't be in too big a hurry to get involved. I'd wait at least 72 hours before I even contemplated doing anything and then I be very careful.

[d_virginiana]

I'm really hoping I won't have to do anything except maybe help get it re-started if it breaks off over some of the more badly damaged sections...

On the bright side, the skin doesn't seem as sensitive today, so maybe it was just something to do with her going clear. Maybe the old and new skin starting to separate?

[d_virginiana]

Great news! I walked in to check on her today, and she was in the middle of shedding. As I suspected, the shed had broken at several places along the body, so I helped her get it all off. It was pretty mangled, but I believe I saw both eyecaps.
Best of all, her scales look perfectly normal! Very shiny, and like nothing ever happened. None of the lateral folding or soft/bent scales like before. This has been going on for months now, so it's good for it to finally be over.

[guidofatherof5]

That's great.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//744/Clapping.gif

[RedSidedSPR]

That's Harely?!! Holy crap.. she's grown..

glad that all worked out

[ConcinusMan]

Interesting. I bet that's what it was then...

I don't think so. By your description it just sounds like normal poop to me. Unfertilized eggs just look like a lump of yolk and it dries hard like yolk because that's what it is. And yeah rumor has it they can drop a load of slugs whether they have mated or not but none of my snakes have ever done that. Not even the female I had for 20 years. She had 3 litters but never just a load of slugs in between mating years/litters. Only time I've ever seen slugs is just one or two with a litter of babies.

Snakes produce eggs mostly by converting body mass reserves and she has plenty of that it appears. I think as long as she heals completely it probably wouldn't hurt a thing to brumate her this winter and breed her in the spring.

So did you just have to give her an oral anti-parasitic course or what? I would think that if it was hookworm (that's the usual nematode that causes dermatitis in people) that you and/or other exposed people would also be carrying them as well as the immediate environment in which case you could easily just keep re-infecting. :confused:

In any case snake skin takes quite a bit of time to get back to normal once the culprit is gone. Next shed she could be totally back to normal.

EDIT: somehow missed an entire page of updates before I posted that ^^^. :rolleyes:


T
As far as weight goes, she's still eating like crazy and has actually gained weight since this started.

They'll do that. Many people think they eat a lot when they're preggo to feed the babies when in reality the babies have their own food supply already. The reason she's eating (and gaining) so much now is to replenish her own reserves which were spent producing those eggs. So by all means let her pound the food and build back up so she can make more eggs and you can breed her next time.

[d_virginiana]

So did you just have to give her an oral anti-parasitic course or what? I would think that if it was hookworm (that's the usual nematode that causes dermatitis in people) that you and/or other exposed people would also be carrying them as well as the immediate environment in which case you could easily just keep re-infecting. :confused:

In any case snake skin takes quite a bit of time to get back to normal once the culprit is gone. Next shed she could be totally back to normal.

EDIT: somehow missed an entire page of updates before I posted that ^^^. :rolleyes:


Yeah, we gave her an oral antiparasitic course. I believe the parasites may have come from some mice we had been buying from a local petstore. I stopped feeding them shortly after she got sick because I got some that had clearly not been properly frozen. I don't think they were freezing them long enough to kill all parasites. It'd make sense too, since Houdini doesn't eat a lot of mice (he prefers fish) and the baby was only getting legs/tails at the time, so Harley was the only one actually eating those mice whole and getting the gut contents.

[Sonya610]

That's Harely?!! Holy crap.. she's grown..

glad that all worked out

Yeah I agree. She is two years old? Holy Sheesh she seems large for her age!

[d_virginiana]

Yeah I agree. She is two years old? Holy Sheesh she seems large for her age!

Yeah, I think her birthday was in May, so she's almost exactly 2 now. She's the first female I've owned so I didn't have anything to compare her size to.

[ConcinusMan]

I've had concinnus' get that big in just 2 years. The Clark Co. WA ones anyway. They also seem to have very long lifespans. A male at 18 and a female at 22? yeah, that's old.