Garters do produce venom

[chris-uk]

I've had a couple of nips from my garters over the last few years. One raised a pin-prick of blood, but today takes the award for most severe bite I've had.

It was one of two checkered girls that Greg took in as a rescue and I agreed to take on, she's called Esme (after a cantankerous old witch in the Discworld books). Esme is probably 2 or 3 years old, but we don't know what with her being a rescue snake. This is their third feed with me, and Esme has worked out where the food comes from, she was in full on feeding mode and decided she was going to exit the tub she was in, so I moved my hand to put her back in and she latched onto my middle finger.
I took the same approach as past bites, let her decide when she will let go. The longest anyone else has hung on has been about 5 seconds as Nobby attempted to disengage her teeth.

Esme was chewing down and drawing my finger right to the back of her mouth - bearing in mind that she was biting from the side of my middle finger about halfway down I didn't rate her chances of swallowing.

The bite wasn't what I'd call painful, but each jaw movement was like another needle being jabbed into my finger. I realised that she wasn't going to let go, so slipped my thumb nail under her top jaw as she chewed, it was a good plan because she started to let go and had nearly let go so I moved my thumb. She took another bite.

She'd been latched on for around two minutes and was actually starting to sting a little. She was still chewing when I called the wife in to help, by the time Char had brought in a bowl of cold water Esme had been chewing for nearly five minutes (Char had to laugh before helping me). The bowl of water got Esme to release, and she was popped into a rub.

So, time for the first couple of photos, one of the bite before I mopped the blood, the second after I'd wiped the blood off:

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/medium/SnakeBite-2013-05-19-StillBleeding.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=11861&title=chris-27-snake-bite-19-may-2013&cat=734)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/medium/SnakeBite-2013-05-19-BloodMoppedUp.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=11860&title=chris-27-snake-bite-19-may-2013&cat=734)

There's actually one main laceration, and three others that aren't so bad. None of them are particularly deep. The bloody wounds lacerations are on the side from the upper jaw, the lower jaw only caused a couple of pin-pricks.

It was a bit sore straight away, but I expected that. I carried on and fed her tank mate, Gytha. And then gave Esme a couple more pieces of fish and pinkie (she still deserved to eat properly today). Then I fed my big girls, so I guess it was about 10-15 minutes after the bite that I realised my finger was swelling up.

Half an hour after the bite my finger was swollen enough that I could only bend it about halfway. It's now been 3 hours and I still can't bend my finger. This picture was taken 45 minutes after the bite, and this is still about as far as I can bend it now.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//734/medium/SnakeBite-2013-05-19-SwellingAfter45min.jpg (http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=11862&title=chris-27-snake-bite-19-may-2013&cat=734)

As you can see, the wound itself isn't significant enough as a cut to cause swelling. So that gives us something in the saliva, namely the venom from the Duvorney Gland. There could be some argument that I've had an allergic reaction to the saliva, but there is no itchiness, no redness around the bite. It's just some localised oedema. Some soreness in the tips of my the neighbouring fingers, and a bit of aching in my hand. I did have a bit of dull headache, but I think that may not be down to the bite. I also had a funny taste in my mouth, again, I don't know if that is associated with the bite but I don't have anything else to put it down to.

I know there's been some discussion in the past as to how severe the venom is, and how bad a garter bite can be. I can attest that this bite is actually quite uncomfortable considering it was from a snake that isn't considered to have a serious bite. It's not going to kill me, and my finger isn't going to drop off.

I thought it was an account worth sharing as I've seen posts about bites, but don't remember any first-hand accounts of envenomation.

[guidofatherof5]

Glad you are OK and thank you Char for helping out.

Nice job Esme :D

[Sonya610]

I know there's been some discussion in the past as to how severe the venom is, and how bad a garter bite can be. I can attest that this bite is actually quite uncomfortable considering it was from a snake that isn't considered to have a serious bite. It's not going to kill me, and my finger isn't going to drop off.

I thought it was an account worth sharing as I've seen posts about bites, but don't remember any first-hand accounts of envenomation.

Could be e-coli, salmonella, mrsa....a number of things. Ever get bit by a cat? As in a deep puncture wound by a feline? Sheesh those bites are horrid and can even be fatal (as in several days in the ICU). Deep puncture cat bites are not something to take lightly.

I ain't no expert but I doubt if it is venom, I suspect it is bacteria. I also suspect if Garters had venom you would have come across it before. My flame female bites me frequently (and no I do not wait 2 minutes before getting her to stop biting me) and often I have thought "No salmonella poisoning please".

Take a Benadryl or 3 immediately and put your finger in ice water. If the swelling/infection spreads might wanna see a doc.

The swelling implies something your immune system has come across before. Allergic reactions are from at least a second occurrence, not the first.

[chris-uk]

Could be e-coli, salmonella, mrsa....a number of things. Ever get bit by a cat? As in a deep puncture wound by a feline? Sheesh those bites are horrid and can even be fatal (as in several days in the ICU). Deep puncture cat bites are not something to take lightly.

I ain't no expert but I doubt if it is venom, I suspect it is bacteria. I also suspect if Garters had venom you would have come across it before. My flame female bites me frequently (and no I do not wait 2 minutes before getting her to stop biting me) and often I have thought "No salmonella poisoning please".

Take a Benadryl or 3 immediately and put your finger in ice water. If the swelling/infection spreads might wanna see a doc.

I've been bitten by a cat a few times, some nice deep punctures. Usually I just slather the bite in antiseptic.

The swelling and stiffness in my finger is definitely not caused by a bacterial infection, bacteria doesn't do that in 10 minutes. Garters do produce venom, it's pretty well researched now, the debate I'm having with myself is how much of what I'm seeing is a direct effect of the venom and how much is an allergic reaction to the venom (or other substances) in the saliva.

I've given the bite a liberal slithering in antibiotic cream, and taken some antihistamines. If it gets worse I'll see about getting it checked - I can't imagine the conversation with my GP trying to explain it's a snake bite.

And if I get bitten by one of my snakes I think it's best to let the snake disengage themselves. Trying to remove them can result in injury, possibly me hurting their jaw and possibly dislodging a tooth which then stays embedded in the wound. If I get b8tten it's my fault, which means I suffer any pain not the biter. :)

[Sonya610]

I've been bitten by a cat a few times, some nice deep punctures. Usually I just slather the bite in antiseptic.

The swelling and stiffness in my finger is definitely not caused by a bacterial infection, bacteria doesn't do that in 10 minutes.

I have no idea if Garters produce venom but I can tell you swelling is an allergic reaction by your immune system that senses a danger.

You don't get swelling the first time your immune system encounters a foreign body, swelling is an auto-immune response to a perceived or known biological threat. The second time (or the 10th time) things can get dramatic.

I hope your finger is doing better. I would suspect e-coli or salmonella before I thought "garter venom". :)

The sudden swelling means your immune system has come across this before and is freaking out in response.

[guidofatherof5]

Duvernoy's Glands and "Warm" Herping (http://www.anapsid.org/duvernoygland.html)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Yea.... I can't tell you how many bites I have taken like this one. And yes, the swelling can be rather annoying :) It's just like being heavily pregnant and having swollen fingers and feet :P Actually I've seen a lot of interesting stuff coming up lately regarding them taking closer looks at the glands in "non venomous" reptiles and they are finding that being venomous and having venomous ancestors is much more common that previously thought.

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks for this link Steve Schmidt.

Duvernoy’s Gland Secretions in Colubrid Snakes « Bugs In The News (http://bugsinthenews.info/?p=854)

[chris-uk]

I would suspect e-coli or salmonella before I thought "garter venom". :)

What makes you think a bacterial infection is more likely than venom? I've been clear that the swelling came up within 10 minutes, if you know something about the microbiology of e-Coli or salmonella that can explain an instant swelling you have some more up to date information than me (it's been almost 15 years since I worked as an information officer for a food research lab and e-coli 0157 was discovered in meat products). The only microbiological cause that I can think of that may be able to explain the symptoms would be botulinum toxin, and I find the possibility that a garter snake is harbouring that in their mouth rather improbable.

So based on the knowledge that garter snakes do secrete venom in their saliva (thanks for the links Steve) I wanted to discuss whether the symptoms I'm seeing around my bite are a primary effect of the venomous compounds in the saliva or an immune response to the any of the proteins in the saliva. There is little written about garter bites, so I can see some value in sharing my experience and trying to fish out other keepers past experience of bites that have had similar symptoms.

I'm edging away from a histamine-mediated response, on the basis that:
I take antihistamines every day for hayfever and dust allergies and took a top up dose after the bite;
There is no redness around the edge of the bite marks. In my experience an allergic response to a bite (admittedly I'm basing this on insect bites) has a lot of red inflammation around the site.
The swollen finger was not warm to the touch or red. So the swelling was caused by fluid retention rather than increased blood flow.

To update on the state of my finger after 12 hours... I can bend it further than I could last night, but it's still swollen and I can't bend it all the way. There is some darkening under the skin on the side of the finger with the worst bite marks, but this could be a natural result of the swelling. The finger is itchy, this isn't a surprise as it's the only symptom I was actually expecting from the bite.

[Natrix]

Chris, Interesting read and relevant to our conversation on this very subject the day we went to pick the snakes up from Greg. I have yet to experience the full onslaught of the furious flame but I am sure she will not disappoint. Bowl of water will be at the ready :D Given the relatively small bite force used, I am inclined to agree that, it is very likely that the immediate cause of the swelling is indeed the effect of the venom at the site of entry. There is no other logical explanation. Hope things settle down soon ;)

[Natrix]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Garter_snake_tooth.jpg

[chris-uk]

Hope things settle down soon ;)

Esme has settled down already. I just made a point of taking her out. She's as sweet as pie when she's not in full-on feeding mode. I will be more cautious feeding her in the future.

After about 18 hours I've nearly got full flexibility back in my finger. There's definitely a dark red and blue colouring down my finger and a little way onto my hand, but I'm putting that down to bruising caused by me trying to flex my swollen finger.

[chris-uk]

So we're about 46h post-bite and the there's still enough swelling that I can't quite bend my finger all the way but it's only about 2mm short of fully flexed.
The bruising has become darker so it's clearly extending down the side of my finger and onto my hand. The bruise couldn't have been caused by the force of the bite, Esme's jaws aren't that strong. So I'm sure the bruise is just a result of the swelling going down.
As for discomfort, it feels bruised when I touch press on it or force it to a full flex. And it's a bit itchy.
No sign of infection, so letting it bleed a bit before cleaning and applying antibiotic cream dealt with any nasty bacteria that got into the bite. There's surprisingly little inflammation, just a little pinkness on the edges where the skin is knitting back together.

[Varanus]

My little checkered boys have never tried to bite me, and hopefully they'll stay so well-behaved even full grown (they're about fourteen inches long or so now). Maybe its because when I feed them I pick them out from their hide and it takes them a bit to wake up and realize the scent of food is around (though they normally grab something in less than thirty seconds).

I also wash my hands of dirt and worm slime before picking them up, and when feeding frozen food I thaw it in the feeding container so some time has passed between when I handle the food and when I pick up the garters, which I suppose could mitigate the scent.

Anyway, it is interesting how widespread "weak" venom is among the non-dangerous snakes. It makes sense though for the many species that have to overpower fairly large prey without the benefit of constriction to have enough of a venom to weaken if not kill the prey.

[guidofatherof5]

My little checkered boys have never tried to bite me, and hopefully they'll stay so well-behaved even full grown (they're about fourteen inches long or so now). Maybe its because when I feed them I pick them out from their hide and it takes them a bit to wake up and realize the scent of food is around (though they normally grab something in less than thirty seconds).

I also wash my hands of dirt and worm slime before picking them up, and when feeding frozen food I thaw it in the feeding container so some time has past since I handled the food and when I pick up the garters.

Anyway, it is interesting how widespread "weak" venom is among the non-dangerous snakes. It makes sense though for the many species that have to overpower fairly large prey without the benefit of constriction to have enough of a venom to weaken if not kill the prey.

You're taking all the fun out of feeding time.

[chris-uk]

Varanus, it mostly comes down to personality. To be honest I was complacent with this new girl, my others are all fine and I can read them pretty well. This girl probably hasn't been handled often in the past and possibly just had food dropped in for her rather than being tong fed. And the practicalities of feeding 15 garters means that my hands will normally have some food smell on them.

You're right that it's interesting to read more about venom in non-venomous snakes.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

If you just look at a garter snake as they are chewing on you... you can very clearly see the enlarged teeth at the back of their mouth as they puncture you and work them further in. Those teeth are there for a reason... to puncture deeper, making deeper, bigger holes for the secretions to get into.

[chris-uk]

If you just look at a garter snake as they are chewing on you... you can very clearly see the enlarged teeth at the back of their mouth as they puncture you and work them further in. Those teeth are there for a reason... to puncture deeper, making deeper, bigger holes for the secretions to get into.

Oh yes. And I could distinctly feel those enlarged teeth when they made a deep puncture. The other teeth felt like velcro or maybe a wire brush pressed against the skin, those big teeth felt like a jab from a needle.
I got a very clear view of the independent action of the lower jaw, it's a wonderful adaption to be able to work one side while the other keeps the grip on the prey.

[Varanus]

Varanus, it mostly comes down to personality. To be honest I was complacent with this new girl, my others are all fine and I can read them pretty well. This girl probably hasn't been handled often in the past and possibly just had food dropped in for her rather than being tong fed. And the practicalities of feeding 15 garters means that my hands will normally have some food smell on them.

You're right that it's interesting to read more about venom in non-venomous snakes.
Oh, to be clear I am placing no fault on you for how you feed. Basically I was pondering why I haven't been bitten before. It may just be their personalities. Mine feed well but I've never seen a particularly aggressive feeding response where they try to race at the food. It's more like I put them down in front of the food, they look at it and go "oh, food, yay!" and chow down at leisure. They rarely do so much as a partial strike.



You're taking all the fun out of feeding time.
I'm just happy seeing them eat so well.:D

[Natrix]

Hi! Varanus, For the record, I too have two snakes from the same place that Chris obtained his. All are re-homes after the original owner passed away. It would appear that none of these snakes have had much if any handling? The Albino T marcianus is friendly but very skittish, and the flame is unpredictable to say the least, to the point she was trying to 'eat' me through the glass and i was at least a foot away from the front of the Viv. It will only be a matter of time before the same happens to me as, as happened to Chris. To date I have only ever been tagged once and that was by the new flame. She's the largest in my small collection and will no doubt make her presence felt. :D

[Foxrun402]

I have been struck at and nailed but never got a hold of me and let go right away. Granted she is a WC parietalis, she was picked up so young that she still has the ability to adapt, and I think you're right about handling them, they need to know your presence is trustworthy and that you are not a predator, and they aren't your prey. I think once this trust is established they become a little more bold around you but still have the tendency to get scared and strike from reflex. If you place a piece of night crawler in your hand and coax them to come onto your hand a little bit then eat it, It might make them more trusting of you, then again it might get you eaten alive!

[Natrix]

"If you place a piece of night crawler in your hand and coax them to come onto your hand a little bit then eat it, It might make them more trusting of you, then again it might get you eaten alive!"
If I did that with the flame I'd definitely be part of her menu, judging by the way she tries to eat the dish her food is served in :D

[Ruth]

I read your post yesterday and today one of mine latched on :) She didn't want to let go and a bowl of cold water did nothing. I had to pull her off which I was not happy about but everything else I tried did nothing. I popped up a post following on from my Obscurus and was wondering what else you can do to get them to release.

[chris-uk]

Are you sure your obscurus (edit: just read your post and saw it wasn't your obscurus, is she a Florida Blue? They can be temperamental too from what I've read.) wasn't reading over your shoulder and getting ideas? ;)

I had some success getting my thumb nail under my checkered's jaw before she shifted her grip and I was back to square one. I'd read that cold water was a good move, but most suggestions I've read that go further than cold water are generally things I wouldn't want to do to my snakes. Personally, if cold water didn't do the job for me I'd be grinning and bearing it until the bugger got bored.

[guidofatherof5]

I know it will sound strange but you have to push into the mouth to get the teeth to release. It's a quick movement and takes practice. You have to be care not to break those little rear-facing needle teeth.

I would agree with Chris in that sometimes it's best to wait for them to release unless you have a T.s.concinnus- (Red-spotted Garter) attached. Waiting on them means waiting until they've chewed a nice chunk of flesh out :eek::D and the rest of the hoard is smelling blood and organizing for an attack. Waiting too long means waiting until they've all had a go at you.:D

[chris-uk]

Another feeding day today, and Esme is definitely a little mental once she knows there's food around. Considering Esme and Gytha are from the same place as Rod's flame Eastern I'm wondering how they were kept and fed by the previous owner.

Gytha turned on to food quicker than Esme, she'd finished a pinky (after one of the quickest strikes I've seen) before Esme hit feeding mode. Esme came charging to the front of the viv, which made me nervous because I was feeding Gytha at the back and having Esme strike towards my forearm was enough to stop me feeding Gytha. I managed to lure Esme to the other back corner with a pinky, but she was as interested in my hand as the pinky in the tweezers. She finished the pinky and came back to the front and started trying to eat my finger through the glass... Then climbed up to the bottom of the door and started coming out, missed the pinky I offered her because she struck at thin air, missed again and ended up falling to the floor (any of my other snakes I'd have moved back into the viv when they got halfway out, Esme is one my hand isn't going near when she's in feeding mode). I got a pinky in her mouth and used that as the right time to pick her up and put her back into the viv.

So striking towards my forearm, trying to eat me through glass, striking at a pinky hard (and missing) so hard that she falls out of her viv. She's a nutter.

[Ruth]

Yes she's a florida blue and was very frisky when she came to me. Yesterday she was like a thing possessed. I did try prizing her jaw as she was only holding on with half her mouth but I was very concerned I would do her harm. The cold water did nothing and we tried that several times. I carried on waiting until I decided she wasn't going to release. I think maybe if I had let go of her totally she may of fled and I'd be back to catching her again but I'm actually quite sure she would of munched down harder with her full mouth. I will get her out tomorrow and see how she is, this morning she was curled up in her log giving me evils. She's so beautiful though and really very lovely, though hubby doesn't think so now.

I had no swelling from the area though, it did bleed quite a lot. It got irritated and went red. I took some antihistamines and had little reaction, I am on a lot of meds at the moment including anti-inflammatorys (sp) due to a bad back so that may be why. It now just looks like I scrapped my thumb on brambles.

[Natrix]

"So striking towards my forearm, trying to eat me through glass, striking at a pinky hard (and missing) so hard that she falls out of her viv. She's a nutter." Sounds very familiar my friend lol :D

[ConcinusMan]

It had been at least 10 days since they got fed and I knew they were very hungry a couple of nights ago. You know, when they start giving you "that look" and watching every move you make. Well I only had enough food on hand to go ahead and give everyone a few bites but really just a "half feeding" to tide them over so I did go ahead and give them what food I had left (some salmon and Rock cod fillet).

Then tonight I had whole silversides, rat pups, and some chicken liver. Well I have to tell you that the most violent feeding response doesn't necessarily happen just because it's been a very long time. I think it was worse tonight because I only fed them just a bit a few nights ago. I dropped the hemostats when I had 3 or 4 huge adults snapping at thin air and my fingers. It wasn't immediately clear where I had dropped the hemostats so I "got brave" and just grabbed a silverside and a rat pup and offered them in my bare fingers.

Now picture this... 4 huge adult concinnus' already had a bite to eat and were in full blown animal predator feeding mode, snapping at thin air and salivating. Needless to say, I got bit and shed some blood. Within seconds I had quite a reaction. Immediately the broken skin itched beyond belief. Out of pure curiosity I let it, and put off washing the wound. Didn't take long for numbness, redness and some significant swelling to occur. These symptoms were gone within 5 minutes of washing the wound but clearly a larger garter in feeding mode practically drooling, has some kind of toxic effect in their saliva.

There was a definite reaction to their saliva getting in the wound. The itching was immediate and intense followed by very red swelling. Of course the symptoms subsided within minutes but still, that was pretty potent saliva.

[chris-uk]

Good to hear another account of a reaction to garter bites. Was there any chewing with your bite Richard? I suspect your concinnus was bigger than the marcianus that chewed on me.
I had a bite last weekend from my 400g cuitzeoensis in feeding mode, it was a very quick tag and release and barely a bite at all. She broke the skin with 5 or 6 teeth though. I had no reaction, which I put down to her having released so quickly (she'd bitten, released, and run halfway across the viv before I'd finished saying a four-letter word) and there simply wasn't the chance for saliva to enter the wounds.

[ConcinusMan]

No chewing really. They just grabbed with a tight hold and wouldn't let go. Had to give them a firm press/tap on the top of the head to make them let go. These were big girls too, around 3ft so their teeth are quite large and punctured my skin easily.. I've been bitten before but most of the time there's no reaction. This time though they were in quite a feeding frenzy, mouths were very wet with saliva, and they had already had a few bites. I think that made a difference. The "venom" was flowing well before they bit.