thiamine B, how long?

[Radix97]

I have a baby Thamnophis elegans and im just wondering how long it would take
for the thiamine b1 deficciancy to occur, im trying to convert him over to guppies
but he only responds to rosy reds (he has only eaten twice four days apart)

[snakeman]

Stuff the rosey reds with reptomin pellets and don't worry about it.introduce scented pinks every other week once you get it feeding regularly

[guidofatherof5]

If your snake is eating rosy reds it will eat guppies. I've never heard of a garter distinguishing between fish.
Any fish = Food

Have you tried the worm chunks in with the fish?
The more hungry a garter gets the less picky they are.
What size container are you using when you feed? You are container feeding, right?

Try this. Put guppies in with rosy reds and watch what happens.
Make sure the guppies out number the rosies. Your little scrub will eat whatever it grabs.;)

[Radix97]

Currently i container feed him in a one cup ziplock container, I have zebra danios which he refused (im not sure about the thiminase in these either). Ive tried worm chunks before but ive never gotten a reaction from that. I will try Snakeman's reptomin minnow plan and will try mixing as many guppies with some of my rosies. i think the reason why he didnt eat the danios is because he was stressed cause he shed the same day.

[guidofatherof5]

Keep us posted, please.

[d_virginiana]

Are the rosies and guppies the same size? All the rosies I've ever seen have been much larger than a typical guppy... If that's the case, he may be going for the bigger prey.

[reptileparadise]

If your snake is eating rosy reds it will eat guppies. I've never heard of a garter distinguishing between fish.
Any fish = Food

Have you tried the worm chunks in with the fish?
The more hungry a garter gets the less picky they are.
What size container are you using when you feed? You are container feeding, right?

Try this. Put guppies in with rosy reds and watch what happens.
Make sure the guppies out number the rosies. Your little scrub will eat whatever it grabs.;)

Thats interesting Steve... I (and others with me...) have noticed otherwise with frozen/thawed fish! Some species are most certainly ignored, even when mixed!

[d_virginiana]

My oldest one actually refused to eat rosy reds. He would eat anything that was silver though. I always thought it had something to do with the way they caught the light. Since the rosy reds were kind of patchy colored, I figured maybe they looked strange when they were moving.

[guidofatherof5]

Thats interesting Steve... I (and others with me...) have noticed otherwise with frozen/thawed fish! Some species are most certainly ignored, even when mixed!

I should have been more specific in my answer. I meant live fish.
My comment was more from a commonsense point of view then experience. I can't imagine any garter caring about most fish species when a feeding response has been triggered by flopping/splashing fish.

[Radix97]

Yes, the guppies are about half the size of the rosy reds. im getting more guppies soon

[d_virginiana]

Yes, the guppies are about half the size of the rosy reds. im getting more guppies soon

That might be your issue. As mine got older, he started to ignore guppies but would go for minnows immediately. I've run into that with frogs as well; as they get older they will ignore food items that are very small. Have you tried frozen/thawed fish?

[BUSHSNAKE]

you can dust the roseys with vitamin B1, its very cheep

[d_virginiana]

you can dust the roseys with vitamin B1, its very cheep

Just wondering, but wouldn't that still defeat the purpose? The rosies aren't deficient in B1, the contain an enzyme that breaks it down so that it's unable to be absorbed by the body. You'd have to dust with a LOT of B1 since you'd be trying to override that enzyme's activity, and that can be dangerous, since there's really no way of knowing how much of it the snake would be able to absorb.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Just wondering, but wouldn't that still defeat the purpose? The rosies aren't deficient in B1, the contain an enzyme that breaks it down so that it's unable to be absorbed by the body. You'd have to dust with a LOT of B1 since you'd be trying to override that enzyme's activity, and that can be dangerous, since there's really no way of knowing how much of it the snake would be able to absorb.
honestly I have no idea, I think its misunderstood by most ive had mixed results using any fish so I avoid fish totally but sometimes you have to use rosies and they can be very helpful...id dust them in a situation like this...

[Radix97]

ive finally got him eating zebra danios! (yay) but
im still wondering how long it takes for the illness
to affect the snake

[guidofatherof5]

I'm not sure that has even been determined. Some reports have snakes dieing after weeks of Thiaminase containing fish. Other report have them living for years.
Some snakes seem more tolerant and others aren't.
There are very differing opinions with regards to Thiaminase. I lean to being safe and just not feeding fish that contain it. I do recognize that sometimes it can't be avoided with troubled eaters.
Hope this helps.

[Sonya610]

That might be your issue. As mine got older, he started to ignore guppies but would go for minnows immediately. I've run into that with frogs as well; as they get older they will ignore food items that are very small. Have you tried frozen/thawed fish?

My supermarket sells fresh trout and salmon. I have started asking them to cut it into strips and put it in their freezer (which gets much colder than mine) for a few days until I return and pick it up.

Gets rid of the parasites without worrying about the chemicals used on fish sold as "frozen". I also eat a lot of fish so the guys in the fish/meat department know I am a regular and are happy to cater to special requests.

For the OP, i read somewhere that putting the b vitamins in their water can help, putting on the food doesn't work since the enzyme will destroy the vit b, but if the animal is going a few days between meals then having supplemented water in between meals may help and I guess theoretically some is absorbed without being destroyed.

[Foxrun402]

Zebra Danios have been noted as Thiaminase free, but im not posotive 100% on that, I believe that all fish must contain some level of it, just what level is harmful is unknown. Correct me if I am wrong, but as I was trying to get Suzi to go "fishing" I made sure that I had done research on any small types of fish I could feed her at the time... Zebra Danios checked out ok for them to eat, and are basically supposed to be a "treat" from their regular diet. So you wouldn't feed them fish 24/7 anyways a varied diet is probably best... But those Zebra Danios should be ok, and you can get them from guppy size to pretty big Zebra's... !!Just be sure they arent tanked with another species of fish!! Not that I know if that would make much of a difference, more of a safety precaution.

As steve said as well... Put some nightcrawler bits in there too, Diversity is key! If the snake gets ahold of it head under water ( basically bobbing for apples ) it will most likely just devour it lol... then have a taste for something else...

If you cut a night crawler and then grab the wound with tongs the crawler will literally thrash in pain and sometimes this can also trigger a feeding response from them...

But from everything I have read in the past 7 months I figure fish best to be left as a "treat" only given on rare occasion unless your certain its safe from Thiaminase or from a fresh fish market.

Parietalis VS Zebra Danio ( this snake eats them alot )
Garter Snake Eating - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGjL8sN5Fxs)