3rd litter born today- 25 big healthy babies

[Jeff B]

The 3rd litter of the season for me was born today. Ended up with 25 perfect big babies and ZERO slugs or stillbornes. After having a bad year last year this season is going pretty darn good. Must have done something right this season. The dame was a T. radix (plains) het axanthic (one of her parents was axanthic so she had a 50% possibility of being het axanthic or het anerythristic). The sire was an axanthic visual (so being co-allelic he carries one copy axanthic and one copy anerythristic).This means the sire would have to donate either a copy of axanthic gene OR a copy of anerythristic gene. About half the babies born are axanthic and the other half are normal phenotype. Thus proving out that the female is in fact het axanthic (or she carries one copy of the axanthic gene). This also means that all the normal looking babies are 100% het anerythristic. If the dame would have been het anerythristic half the babies would have been anerythristic and the other half would have been normals het axanthic. Hope I didn't confuse anyone.
http://gartersnakemorph.com/images/axanthiclitter.jpg

[Eddie]

Awesome! You were do for a good season.

[guidofatherof5]

You lost me but it doesn't matter. Awesome radix scrubs.

[Jeff B]

Awesome! You were do for a good season.
Thanks Ed. You know I took a lot of flack last year and in fact I took a lot of flack right up to last week. Last year was a bad year with a lot of stills for whatever reason for me and then to have to listen to all the crap on top of it, was just adding insult to injury. Hope these litters continue. Can't wait to see how the rest of the week pans out at this rate. My florida albino and het albino that I got from you (was it 2 or 3 years ago?) are looking plump. They were both bred to my 4 het pieds rotating for a month.

[Jeff B]

You lost me but it doesn't matter. Awesome radix scrubs. Sorry Steve, I was afraid that might be confusing, co-allelic is a somewhat complicated situation and maybe I didn't explain it as well as I hoped. Read it again tomorrow and hopefully it soaks in while you sleep tonight and will make sense tomorrow :) Maybe think of it this way axanthic and anerythristic exist at the same location and only two copies can exist at one location.
Lets label axanthic allele=x and label anerythristic allele=n X and N represent their respective wild type alleles
xn=axanthic phenotype (looks black and blue)
nn=anerythristic phenotype (looks black and gray)
xx=normal or axanthic or lethal, not completely sure yet
Xx=normal phenotype (looks normal) but het axathic
Nn=normal phenotype (looks normal) but het anerythristic
Hope this helps

[mb90078]

I'm with you except for "xx=normal or axanthic or lethal, not completely sure yet". You lose me there.

[guidofatherof5]

Sorry Steve, I was afraid that might be confusing, co-allelic is a somewhat complicated situation and maybe I didn't explain it as well as I hoped. Read it again tomorrow and hopefully it soaks in while you sleep tonight and will make sense tomorrow :) Maybe think of it this way axanthic and anerythristic exist at the same location and only two copies can exist at one location.
Lets label axanthic allele=x and label anerythristic allele=n X and N represent their respective wild type alleles
xn=axanthic phenotype (looks black and blue)
nn=anerythristic phenotype (looks black and gray)
xx=normal or axanthic or lethal, not completely sure yet
Xx=normal phenotype (looks normal) but het axathic
Nn=normal phenotype (looks normal) but het anerythristic
Hope this helps

It does, Thanks

[MasSalvaje]

I'm with you except for "xx=normal or axanthic or lethal, not completely sure yet". You lose me there.

If I understand Jeff correctly, he has yet to determine what the phenotype of an individual that has a genotype of "xx" would be; whether normal or axanthic, or if it is a lethal mutation all together that terminates the developement of fetus.

-Thomas Wilder

P.S. Awesome litter there Jeff! It is hard to beat a good looking axanthic radix.

[Jeff B]

That is correct Thomas. Thanks
The axanthics don't look like much as babies, just a dull darker version of normal, but if you look at them under a magnifying glass they have an irredescence to them and they have blue bellies. As they mature into adults they turn a nice blue, slate gray and black, one of my favorites for sure.
I'm really hoping to prove out the Chicago green axanthic in the next couple weeks, but that may end up to be a 3 year wild goose chase. The wild caught green axanthic male is really nice.

[chris-uk]

Sorry Steve, I was afraid that might be confusing, co-allelic is a somewhat complicated situation and maybe I didn't explain it as well as I hoped. Read it again tomorrow and hopefully it soaks in while you sleep tonight and will make sense tomorrow :) Maybe think of it this way axanthic and anerythristic exist at the same location and only two copies can exist at one location.
Lets label axanthic allele=x and label anerythristic allele=n X and N represent their respective wild type alleles
xn=axanthic phenotype (looks black and blue)
nn=anerythristic phenotype (looks black and gray)
xx=normal or axanthic or lethal, not completely sure yet
Xx=normal phenotype (looks normal) but het axathic
Nn=normal phenotype (looks normal) but het anerythristi
Hope this helps

Nice explanation.
So anerythristic and axanthic are both recessive, and when both genes are present it is the axanthic trait that is expressed.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Congrats on the nice litter! Don't worry about all the crap jeff you keep doing what your doing! I am so thankful for guys like you and scott and all the other breeders that dedicate all your time to breeding these awesome snakes! I think if you keep and breed as many garters or snakes in general as you do you will have a few bad litters here and there so keep up the good work and don't let nobody get to you! Thanks!!!

[Jeff B]

Nice explanation.
So anerythristic and axanthic are both recessive, and when both genes are present it is the axanthic trait that is expressed.
We know anerythristic is a simple recessive, that has been well characterized. Which means that one copy of the anerythristic gene is dominated by the wild type counterpart or respective wild type allele. It appears that anerythristic and the axanthic gene are co-dominant to each other which when one copy of each are present it creates a 3rd phenotype, which we call blue axanthic. It is likely that the axanthic gene is recessive as well, but does it produce a distinguishable phenotype on its own without a copy of anerythristic being present is the question. I think some of Scotts past breedings says it can't, but I am not completely certain that anerythistic has ever been completely taken out of the equation, but it is and het axanthic x het axanthic produces all normals in large sample size with no axanthic phenotype expressed, then the question becomes does xx just look normal or is it lethal?

[Jeff B]

Congrats on the nice litter! Don't worry about all the crap jeff you keep doing what your doing! I am so thankful for guys like you and scott and all the other breeders that dedicate all your time to breeding these awesome snakes! I think if you keep and breed as many garters or snakes in general as you do you will have a few bad litters here and there so keep up the good work and don't let nobody get to you! Thanks!!!
I appreciate that, thanks.

[Scott F]

Jeff,

Congrats on your litters, you are starting out great this year !

Scott

[Jeff B]

Thanks Scott, hope it stays that way, and I hope you have a great baby season too. I know any day now you will start cranking them out too. Cheers

[chris-uk]

It is likely that the axanthic gene is recessive as well, but does it produce a distinguishable phenotype on its own without a copy of anerythristic being present is the question. I think some of Scotts past breedings says it can't, but I am not completely certain that anerythistic has ever been completely taken out of the equation, but it is and het axanthic x het axanthic produces all normals in large sample size with no axanthic phenotype expressed, then the question becomes does xx just look normal or is it lethal?

That is probably impossible to answer without genetic sequencing of all offspring from a het axanthic x het axanthic pairing, and testing of any stillborns and slugs (I'm assuming a slug can be an undeveloped fertilised egg).
I suspect that if that pairing has consistently produced normal offspring that two axanthic genes are incompatible with life.

[CrazyHedgehog]

why can't you live nearer me sigh..

[Steveo]

That is probably impossible to answer without genetic sequencing of all offspring from a het axanthic x het axanthic pairing, and testing of any stillborns and slugs (I'm assuming a slug can be an undeveloped fertilised egg).
I suspect that if that pairing has consistently produced normal offspring that two axanthic genes are incompatible with life.

You wouldn't necessarily have to test any of the nonviable pairings - just check the parents vs. the living offspring and see if the ratios line up i.e. if Yy x Yy doesn't ever produce yy, there's something wrong with the yy pairing.

Some lethal gene pairings are lethal from the start so you'd never see anything from them. In that situation, humans tend to spontaneously abort so early that the woman never even knows about it. I'm not sure how it works in herps but I would suspect it's something similar, possibly a very small ovum excreted with normal digestive waste.

It's possible a lethal gene could be located near the gene in question and so they tend to travel together... but to tease that out using mendelian methods could require a tremendous sample size.

[Jeff B]

You wouldn't necessarily have to test any of the nonviable pairings - just check the parents vs. the living offspring and see if the ratios line up i.e. if Yy x Yy doesn't ever produce yy, there's something wrong with the yy pairing


The problem with that is if xx is not phenotypically discernable from normal (wild type) phenotype.

[BUSHSNAKE]

nice litter of "blues" Jeff, i like this morph cuz of where its from and who found it

[chris-uk]

You wouldn't necessarily have to test any of the nonviable pairings - just check the parents vs. the living offspring and see if the ratios line up i.e. if Yy x Yy doesn't ever produce yy, there's something wrong with the yy pairing.

Yes with a large enough sample you could just test the living and identify whether there are any yy individuals with a statistical confidence.


Some lethal gene pairings are lethal from the start so you'd never see anything from them. In that situation, humans tend to spontaneously abort so early that the woman never even knows about it. I'm not sure how it works in herps but I would suspect it's something similar, possibly a very small ovum excreted with normal digestive waste.

I don't know how the mechanism for this works in herps either. I'd assume either expelled shortly after conception, or retained and expelled during the birth.


It's possible a lethal gene could be located near the gene in question and so they tend to travel together... but to tease that out using mendelian methods could require a tremendous sample size.

I think it could be a case of missing genetic material. In that a axanthic mutation has some vital genetic material from a nearby loci missing, this would explain why you don't get yy and also why a axanthic phenotype is only displayed when paired with an anerythristic gene - the anery expression is "weak" enough that the axanthic can dominate, but the anery genes aren't missing the genetic material that the axanthic gene does so the combination is viable.

Sorry for diverting your new litter thread Jeff. The genetics are quite interesting with this one.

[Steveo]

Sorry for diverting your new litter thread Jeff. The genetics are quite interesting with this one.

I apologize as well. This is just a neat topic and it's nice to discuss with others who are literate in genetics. :)

[mb90078]

To be fair, it was me who de-railed the thread, but it was a pretty interesting side-topic.

[Jeff B]

Sorry for diverting your new litter thread Jeff. The genetics are quite interesting with this one.
Not diverted one bit, that's what this post is all about. I welcome the ideas and the input. My hypothesis is that it is a minor mutation that alone, one copy or two doesn't have any major effect and thus results in normal wild type phenotype, but combined with the anery gene it somehow interacts in a truncated fashion. So phenotypically, the axanthic is somewhere between anerythristic and normal in effect or appearance (maybe 75% toward anerythristic). The evidence is in the fact that the axanthic look like an anerythristic that didn't quite loose all the brown and yellow color, just greatly reduced, compared to the anerythristic that has the full effect and makes a black and gray snake.

[chris-uk]

One of my projects, if I were to win on the lottery, is to fund some university research to genetically map all garter species. I think that understanding morph genetics is interesting enough that once we'd mapped wild phenotypes I'd push my "research team" to continue mapping morphs of some species and identify what mutation causes each trait. There are times I regret following an IT career rather than medical genetics.

[Jeff B]

At my day job, I supervise a clinical molecular and virology diagnostics department and we recently started collaborating with newborn screening and it's a pretty exciting and interesting time to be involved in molecular genetic testing.

[Jeff B]

I've been re-thinking this litter. Mom is almost certainly het axanthic since there were no anerythristics born in this litter, she likely isn't het anerythristic. Since about 50% were axanthic, perhaps xx (two copies of axanthic gene) is visually axanthic phenotype after all. Which would mean that of the axanthics produced half are xn and half are xx. That would mean that of the normals are 50% poss het anery or 50% poss het axanthic but they have to be het for one OR the other since dad is axanthic he has to give either a copy of axanthic or a copy of anery. I guess if any of those axanthic offspring are raised up and bred to an anery and produced all axanthic babies that would prove out the existence of xx. I would like to hear others thoughts?

[chris-uk]

Your thinking on proving out the xx seems fine to me. Essentially, and all axanthic litter would prove that both xx and xn produce visual axanthic. If 50% of the litter are axanthic your hypothesis is plausible. Unlike something like fruit flies you need to wait a couple of years to confirm your hypothesis.

[Jeff B]

Your thinking on proving out the xx seems fine to me. Essentially, and all axanthic litter would prove that both xx and xn produce visual axanthic. If 50% of the litter are axanthic your hypothesis is plausible. Unlike something like fruit flies you need to wait a couple of years to confirm your hypothesis.

These guys are getting bigger now and I now have 3 piles of distinct colors.
3 are dark axanthics (more blue, but definately not anerythristics)
9 lighter axanthics (more blue green, with lime green dorsals)
13 normals with brown sides and yellow orange dorsals

Originally I thought I had 12 axanthics and 13 normals. Not sure what this means. I am going to try to run some different possible punnett squares, but would be interested to hear other theories. Just a reminder, the female mom was visually a normal but daughter to axanthic, and the male dad was a visual axanthic (nice blue and black color)