Thamnophis ID

[Boiga]

Hi everyone,

I would like peoples opinion on a Thamnophis sp. The picture is not the best has this snake is very difficult to take a snap shot of, but if possible I would be grateful if anyone could shed me any light as to what species this is.

Many thanks in advance.8675

[guidofatherof5]

Looks like T.marcianus- Checkered Garter Snake to me. Probably an albino het.

Might be a male. Can we see an under side tail photo and maybe we can sex it for you.

Here's an example of the kind of photo we need.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/breeding/5069-sexing-pics.html

[guidofatherof5]

Looks like T.marcianus- Checkered Garter Snake to me. Probably an albino het.

Might be a male. Can we see an under side tail photo and maybe we can sex it for you.

Here's an example of the kind of photo we need.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/breeding/5069-sexing-pics.html


Not sure why the first link didn't work so here's a better one.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/breeding/5069-sexing-pics.html

[gregmonsta]

Not the best shot but I'd say marcianus as well.

[chris-uk]

Agreed, it looks like a checkered. Assuming you bought it in the UK checkered would be more likely than any other species that have similar patterns. What was it sold as?

A couple more photos, including a close up of the head will help nail it down.

[reptileparadise]

I've seen this photo on an UK forum as well, and I'll repeat my statement over here... To me (difficult with only this and the other photo) this doesn't look very marcianus to me!

There's a big variety in these guys, I'm well aware of that, but the dorsal does not look very marcianus like to me!

I might be wrong though and prefer to be corrected really (as the buyer has a pair and all breeding should be encouraged... IF both are marcianus indeed)

++
Edit... taking another look at the head, that does look marcianus like... I'm confused now :)

[chris-uk]

I've seen this photo on an UK forum as well, and I'll repeat my statement over here... To me (difficult with only this and the other photo) this doesn't look very marcianus to me!

There's a big variety in these guys, I'm well aware of that, but the dorsal does not look very marcianus like to me!

I might be wrong though and prefer to be corrected really (as the buyer has a pair and all breeding should be encouraged... IF both are marcianus indeed)

++
Edit... taking another look at the head, that does look marcianus like... I'm confused now :)

My first instinct from the dorsal was radix, but the head looks marcianus from what we can see.

So I think a few more photos are definitely going to be useful. I'd like to see a shot of the head from the side.

[Boiga]

I got pictures but this site really sucks when it comes to uploading them. Is there any other way? I have tried photo bucket and the insert image uploader on here

[Boiga]

Agreed, it looks like a checkered. Assuming you bought it in the UK checkered would be more likely than any other species that have similar patterns. What was it sold as?

A couple more photos, including a close up of the head will help nail it down.

Hi Chris, I did buy both snakes as a chequered pair yes off someone locally who did not want them as they were *agressive and non feeding* and this one with a question mark is supposedly the male. For the record the male is very defensive but is an excellent feeder (they have not missed a meal in 3 months yet) as is the female. The female is calm and a pleasurable handler. No doubt the female is what she is supposed to be. I ask further opinion as I am selling these as a pair on a UK classifieds and reptileparadise raised suspicion that the male could be T. Radix. After having a look at a few pictures of T. Radix there are some with similarities. If he does turn out to be T. Radix he will not be sold as a pair simple as that. I was just after some opinions and the majority of people ive messaged say he is T. Marcianus.

[Boiga]

868586868687

[Stefan-A]

Going by that last set of pictures, I suspect that T. radix and T. marcianus are either both wrong, or one of them is partially correct. Because that looks like T. sirtalis to me.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Going by that last set of pictures, I suspect that T. radix and T. marcianus are either both wrong, or one of them is partially correct. Because that looks like T. sirtalis to me.
I agree, its a Florida Blue. Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis

[reptileparadise]

I'm glad I raised the suspecion on the other forum...

[Darlo]

From those pics I say Florida Blue too and I guess the heightened aggression would also be a possible indicator (If my blues are anything to go by!).

[Boiga]

I'm glad I raised the suspecion on the other forum...

I am not, thats three different species now ;-)

[Darlo]

I am not, thats three different species now ;-)

Well the more I look at the latest photos that you have uploaded the more I'm convinced it's a sirtalis Florida blue.

[Natrix]

Suggest Scale counts, Body, Supra and infra labials. cross referenced with the Garter Bible for a better ID. Would you agree Steve?

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Partially may be the correct term here because everything about this snake screams florida blue eastern, but the head pattern still looks like marcianus. I would say you need to do scale counts and also what does the belly look like. It's either a pure florida eastern or a florida blue eastern / checkered cross!
going by that last set of pictures, i suspect that t. Radix and t. Marcianus are either both wrong, or one of them is partially correct. Because that looks like t. Sirtalis to me.

[chris-uk]

Looking at the latest set of pictures I'm not confident that it is a marcianus. The head shape doesn't look marcianus and the pattern/colouring doesn't look quite like my checkereds.
I don't have any experience with Easterns, and I've only seen Florida Blues once, so I can't really give an opinion as to whether they are Florida Blues. If you aren't sure about their breeding I wouldn't be surprised if he's a hybrid.

I wouldn't sell them as a pair, I'd want to be 100% certain they were both checkereds and there are plenty of question marks over this guy.

If you can do some scale counts there's plenty of us that can check the counts against the species descriptions in the garter snake bible.

[katach]

This is my checkered (Enzo)

8690

This is my Radix (John)

8691

My thought is more radix.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

It's definitely not a marcianus. And definitely not a radix. It looks like a florida- locale sirtalis... it is either a FL sirtalis, or a cross between FL sirtalis and marcianus, with the sirtalis traits dominating.

[Boiga]

Ok folks, many thanks for all your thoughts. I am still none the wiser regarding which species this is has more names are thrown into the mixer, but I definately won't be selling him in a pair or as T.Marcianus or anything till I get clarification as to who are what he is. All I will say is that he is a lovely snake, evil as hell and feeds like a beast. One more question to cause more confusion ;-). Is he actually a Garter or a Viper species crossed with a pidgeon? XD XD XD :p. Not that it matters hes cool.

[chris-uk]

Ok folks, many thanks for all your thoughts. I am still none the wiser regarding which species this is has more names are thrown into the mixer, but I definately won't be selling him in a pair or as T.Marcianus or anything till I get clarification as to who are what he is. All I will say is that he is a lovely snake, evil as hell and feeds like a beast. One more question to cause more confusion ;-). Is he actually a Garter or a Viper species crossed with a pidgeon? XD XD XD :p. Not that it matters hes cool.

Not selling as a pair seems like the wisest move. Based on responses it looks like you have a T. sirtalis sirtalis from Florida, and Florida Blues aren't uncommon in the UK.

You may find out he is in fact a T. marcianus crossed with Ophiophagus hannah based on his temperament ;). I don't think there's any pigeon in him.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Agreed!

it's definitely not a marcianus. And definitely not a radix. It looks like a florida- locale sirtalis... It is either a fl sirtalis, or a cross between fl sirtalis and marcianus, with the sirtalis traits dominating.