wild caught garter -gender and type?

[acovert]

My uncle lives along the lewiston river in washington state. My boyfriend and I were walkingn along the river for fun. I had kept an eye open for snakes (the fish in the river attract them) but hadn't seen any. As we were heading towrds the wooden stairs to go back to this house, this little beauty popped out onto the bottom step. It was easy to catch. Right now it's sitting in a plastic container (we're still at my uncles, and his wife isn't a fan of snakes so we're going to relocate it at this point).

What I'm wondering is if its male or female and what type of garter. I'm thinking female and northwestern. I have some pictures but I can't post them right now. I have just this one, that my boyfriend took with his phone:

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[Invisible Snake]

Looks like a T. atratus atratus - Santa Cruz garter snake, but they don't range in that area. I'm thinking northwestern as well :)

[acovert]

Yeah, I doubt its a santa cruz garter. I'm fairly certain its a northwestern. Thats the most common around here. Of course, I could be wrong. I'm more interested in the gender...I'll try to get some pics up soon so that people can see the tail and vent area. Its been injured around that area so I'm having trouble deciding between male or female. My only experience is with my snake, Cuddles.

[Greg'sGarters]

I'm not 100% sure (don't really know much about garters outside of Thamnophis sirtalis, Thamnophis sauritus and Thamnophis proximus), but if I had to guess, Thamnophis ordinoides.

[guidofatherof5]

Good healthy looking snake. I would guess from the size and if it is a T.ordinoides - Northwestern it would be a female.

[acovert]

Yeah. I'm thinking by size and attitude that it's a female. Her vent/tail area is all scarred up. And for a wild caught snake she is pretty calm and easy to handle.

EDIT
Here are a couple of vent area pictures:

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[acovert]

And, just because I can, we took a few pictures of the area around the scarring on her tail. It also looks as though she may have lost the tip of her tail at some point. We've named her Battlecry because of her scars. Battlecry seemed more feminine than Battlescar. My boyfriend wants to keep her, since we had to move her from my uncle's house (they don't like snakes and she was making her home in a rather dangerous spot....not to mention my uncle threatened to grill her up and eat her >_<). I'm debating between releasing her at Powell Butte or the Sandy River Delta Park, or letting my boyfriend keep her.

And by dangerous, I mean lawn mower and human traffic dangerous. She was making her home right in the stairs where my aunt and uncle walk every day, and where my uncle just mowed the lawn yesterday. I'm glad she didn't get caught by that.

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[guidofatherof5]

It's difficult to nail it down because of the injury but that tail looks male.

[katach]

Exactly what I was thinking Steve. Tough to say from that injury, but male is my thought as well.

[Selkielass]

I am guessing male too, but hard to say w that scarring.
In Michigan I've only seen males out and moving, but the snow has barely disappeared.
Is it late enough in your area for the females to be out?

[acovert]

It's been fairly warm the last week or two. I'm not sure how warm it has to be for females to come out, but yesterday it hit 75 degrees. Everything here is in bloom. We've been hitting close to 60 degrees or more off and on for the last three weeks or so. We've had cold days as well, but the last week has been very, very nice. We're pretty much officially in spring.

The injury does make it hard to tell. Sometimes I can barely see where the vent is, but I believe that is is near the beginning of the discoloration on the tail. From the looks of it, it was damaged too, but it still seems to function properly. When we had the snake in the plastic container yesterday it did go to the bathroom.

I still lean towards female simply because of the size. It is about the same length as Cuddles, and thicker. Cuddles is about a year and a half old, I think, and about 10-12 inches in length. At the same size, this snake is about twice as thick as Cuddles and moves a lot slower (which is how we caught it).

One thing I've noticed is that, despite the fact that this snake is wild caught, it is very calm and will just sit in my hand calmly. It doesn't seem to mind being picked up and held at all. It doesn't even try to bite. Most of the garters I've caught in the wild have tried to bite me at some point or another....although most of them were much bigger than this one as well.

[guidofatherof5]

The calm behavior is something to watch as that maybe a sign of sickness.
Hope it turns out to be one of those special snakes.;)

[Selkielass]

Have to agree with Steve. Most of the very passive snakes I've only come across were calm because they were terribly ill.

Most have recovered with the 3time W's. (Water, warmth and worms) but their attitude usually comes back long before they decide im tolerable because I bring food.
Impressive that s/he has survived such an injury so far. Tough snake.

[acovert]

Hmmm...I didn't think about her being sick. She doesn't seem sick, but it's hard to tell with animals sometimes. We'll keep and eye on her and wash our hands when we handle her. She's staying at my boyfriend's house so she's far away from Cuddles. I'll warn my boyfriend to be careful about handling his corn right after the garter.

Does anyone have a guess on how old the injury might be?

I'm gonna go with calling it a she for now, until we know otherwise.

[Selkielass]

Last summer. Probably semi or mostly healed before brumation- I think infection would have set in if s/he went underground with an open injury.

The lumpiness and difficulty of determining sex and exactly where the vent is makes me think things may still be internally knitting back together. Fasting and not pooping for months might have been good for healing. Id watch for infection around its vent as digestion and eli
nation resume.
Scarred survivors like this one awe me. I hope the plumbing continues to work.

[acovert]

We'll keep a close eye on her and see how she does. We're planning on trying to feed her sometime this week, once she has a chance to settle a little more. I really do hope that she's alright and everything continues to work properly. If she is still healing will some of the lumpiness start to go away? Or will it always be like that?

[BLUESIRTALIS]

What a nice looking snake! I would have guessed single striped pickeringii by the first pic, but the other pics confirmed ordinoides for me! That is a handsome boy you have and i hope he settles in nicely and i hope the injury continues to heal without any future problems. Good luck with this nice looking little guy!

[acovert]

Now that I look more closely at the tail, it does seem to appear male. The size of the snake is misleading. For a male, it's rather thick; twice the thickness of Cuddles, I think.

From what my boyfriend has told me (he keeps it at his house, since I can't have another snake) the snake has been moving around more and, after being taken out of the enclosure, tends to be even more active.

[Foxrun402]

Well thats a good sign that the lil guy is active... My Sirtalis Parietalis is VERY LAZY -_- now that spring has come around I notice her behavior changing! becoming more active and I believe its because the ambient temperatures of the room she resides in are changing and warming up... Hopefully this is the case with your new addition, hope all goes well for you ! =)

[acovert]

Battlecry/scar is officially eating. As I am typing this s/he is eating half of a nightcrawler. I think s/he seems more calm because s/he is merely very cautious. We weren't sure that s/he would take food since s/he is wild, but there was almost no hesitation with the worm. Of course, s/he was not nearly as enthusiastic as Cuddles, but that's to be expected.

So far things seem to be normal with s/he. I'm not seeing any neurological problems or other visible illness, so I have hopes that s/he will continue to heal if there is any damage leftover from her injury. Since s/he just ate, we'll be keeping on eye on him/her to see if the vent is still working properly. Hopefully there are no issues with the plumbing.

At the moment, s/he is in a box (feeding box). She was wiping her face on the side, so my boyfriend put in some paper for him/her to use. At first s/he seemed offended, then s/he actually used it to wipe his/her face. It was cute.

So, does everyone agree that it's male, and not female? I'm leaning towards male myself, now that I look at the tail more closely. My boyfriend disagrees, but he's new to garters.

Oh, and we just took a measurement. S/he's around 14-15 inches, possibly even closer to 16 (s/he was very squirmy).

[chris-uk]

Do the injuries look fresh? My Impression from the photos was that the wounds are bites that have almost healed.

If s/he is eating worms it's a good sign, and you should know within days if the digestive system is clear and uninjured.

[Foxrun402]

At the moment, s/he is in a box (feeding box). She was wiping her face on the side, so my boyfriend put in some paper for him/her to use. At first s/he seemed offended, then s/he actually used it to wipe his/her face. It was cute.

So, does everyone agree that it's male, and not female? I'm leaning towards male myself, now that I look at the tail more closely. My boyfriend disagrees, but he's new to garters.

Oh, and we just took a measurement. S/he's around 14-15 inches, possibly even closer to 16 (s/he was very squirmy).

They do like to keep their faces clean lol =) You could also try some 10" feeding tongs or hemostats work well... make the worm wiggle a bit to stimulate a feeding response and watch him attack it from the tongs as if he was in the wild! I do that with mine some times to make feeding fun, then again he also see's YOU while your tong feeding letting him know you bring him food. That might make him a little more trusting of you, and its fun! looks male to me though too...

Also as chris said watch for s/he to leave a stool to make sure she wont just impact herself by eating too much and not being able to digest properly... if she gains a slight bulge from night crawlers I would say she should look somewhat normal again within 24 hours of eating, and should have a stool within 48-36 hours of eating... mine leaves a few off of night crawlers though, but I feed her 2 chopped into 1/4's (maybe why)

[acovert]

Yeah, I am believing that this snake is male now. Despite the size difference between him and Cuddles. Too bad the tail is so damaged. It would be so much easier to tell for sure.


Do the injuries look fresh? My Impression from the photos was that the wounds are bites that have almost healed.

The outside looks pretty much healed, but we're worried about internal damage. He produced some fecal matter when we had him in the plastic container at my uncles, so we're hoping that isn't the case. Also, the vent area looks as though it was torn up pretty bad, to the point where I can't always see the vent right away. That worries me a bit. He hasn't musked us once, either, which I find a bit odd for a wild-caught garter. Essentially every wild garter I have ever handled has musked me. It could just be his personality, but I'm wondering if there are some issues with the vent and that is why he hasn't musked us...only time will tell, I suppose.

I have to say, for a male this garter is very calm. Perhaps he is just a calm-natured snake, but I thought male garters were typically more energetic? I'm not sure. Cuddles is a pain to catch because he moves so fast, but this guy just curls up and sits still while you pick him up, despite being wild. It makes me curious...and a little worried. I'll be heartbroken if he is sick and we end up losing him. I'm attached to the little guy.

[Foxrun402]

All you can really do is the best for him that you can, and know that you're doing the right thing by trying to help him. Hopefully he recovers well and stays with you for a while =)

[acovert]

Alright. We are officially considering this snake a male (it took some considerable persuading when it came to my boyfriend). So, we have officially renamed him Scar, which is the best that I could get my boyfriend to agree too, after he suggested several very Harry Potter-style names that I just had to shake my head at. Naming him Basilisk or Slyther just seemed a little too "out there" for me. I wanted Battle, but he wanted Scar (which i also suggested) so I compromised.

I haven't seen him myself since the night that we fed him the worm, but from what my boyfriend is telling me he has been relatively active while being handled and that is good news to me. Another thing that I have noticed is that Scar does not seem to hide - ever. Cuddles, and even my boyfriend's corn snake (a Snow named Midnight, ironically - also the corn snake that I felt my friend and his fiance were mistreating, so I'm glad my boyfriend bought him) like to hide pretty much whenever someone bothers them. Cuddles hides 24/7, poking his head out of the aspen and basking until he sees something move and then disappears again.

Is it normal for a garter to not want to hide? I realize that this could just be personality, but this particular snake seems to like to contradict the little bit that I do know about garters, so I m trying to learn.

I am not sure if he has produced any fecal matter yet. My boyfriend is supposed to let me know when he gets home soon, so perhaps I will post an update on that later.

EDIT
We have fecal matter! So it seems as though the vent is working properly, despite the damage in that area.

[Foxrun402]

Awesome news! Good that he is doing things like he should be! and yes some garters can be very bold and will sit in the open and sometimes sleep in the open resting their heads against something is a good sign they're asleep! Mine will be bold at times like now when i'm typing this... Anytime I begin typing she can hear the keys being pressed and it grabs her attention... then I can look back and see her peering out at me spying on me lol! At other times she will be content in her hide and wont come out all day until I check on her lol

It's also possible that Scar has already acknowledged you as help and not as harm and trusts you a little more then most would from the wild. If you where hurt and someone helped you would you trust them a little better? ;) Hopefully everything keeps going good! Keep us posted!

[guidofatherof5]

It certainly wouldn't hurt anything to treat the injury with a little weak tea looking betadine solution.

[acovert]

It certainly wouldn't hurt anything to treat the injury with a little weak tea looking betadine solution.

How does that work exactly? I've never heard of doing that for an injury.

I get to see Scar in a couple of hours. I'm rather excited.

[acovert]

Scar seems to be doing well. He is as slow and calm as usual. He does't move a whole lot, which worries me.

Here are some close-ups of the injury, including the damage to the vent:
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And, just for the fun of it, here are a couple of headshots of the quiet little guy:
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[guidofatherof5]

That vent scale should look better in the next couple of sheds. Good looking ordie.

[chris-uk]

I'm pretty certain the injuries are puncture wounds from a bite, if I had to guess I'd say the two main punctures are canine teeth on a cat (I enjoyed the irony of typing those last few words).
As Steve said, they will improve over time and each shed will look better. I've seen a cat bite first hand when my parietalis escaped and the cat found her first, Nobby's bite wasn't as bad as you have there, but 9 months later you wouldn't know it was there unless you are looking. Treat with the betadine solution as suggested by Steve, cat's mouths are a reservoir of bacteria and you want to avoid any infection.

[acovert]

Where can I find betadine? I know what it is, just not where to find it. And is there anything special I have to do to it before using it on a snake.

[guidofatherof5]

Any drug store, Walmart, etc.

[Foxrun402]

Where can I find betadine? I know what it is, just not where to find it. And is there anything special I have to do to it before using it on a snake.

get a container suitable for the snake to soak in, and make a weak tea looking solution of betadine and water try and keep the water at room temp or a little above it so the lil guy is comfy entering it then just let em soak for 15 -20 minutes should be ok

[guidofatherof5]

get a container suitable for the snake to soak in, and make a weak tea looking solution of betadine and water try and keep the water at room temp or a little above it so the lil guy is comfy entering it then just let em soak for 15 -20 minutes should be ok

Give the snake a soak in water only so they can drink and poop first. Then the betadine solution.

[acovert]

Alright. We'll see about doing that tomorrow or Saturday, then. So far he is doing great. Active, normal behavior, even if he is a bit calm. I'm in love with the little guy...though, I'm still more attached to my Cuddles!

[Selkielass]

I'm so glad to hear he is still doing well!
If he continues to eat and poop well for over a week, then id say he has a good chance of a full recovery.
betadine soaks may help, and a bit of ointment or diaper rash salve can help keep fecal matter from sticking to injuries in the vent area.

Some wild caught snakes realize they *fast* that they've fallen into heaven and quickly beg for food whenever a familiar human is in the room. My male eastern was like that- he was just skinny, dehydrated and constipated when I found him. I thought he'd go right back into the wild as soon as he recovered, but he had other ideas..

He soaked, ate, soaked some more, pooped like a charcoal grille and then started begging for food and attention everytime I came near the quarantine cage which is semi isolated. (No attempts made at training or conditioning.)

He and several of my w.c. Butlerii seldom hide. Some of my captive bred and born hide most of the time in and freak out, at least briefly, when picked up. All I can put it down to is individual temperament.

[acovert]

Betadine solution was applied successfully this weekend. He took another half a nightcrawler and is still pooping regularly. He is calm, but relatively active when he is handled. We are working on acquiring a bigger enclosure for him (he's in the little keeper than I had for Cuddles when he was just a baby). Everything seems fine.

[Steveo]

Good to hear.

[guidofatherof5]

Great. Keep up the good work.