Shocking tail loss.

[gregmonsta]

Time to report something odd - Fawn, my big parietalis girl, is currently at the end of her shed cycle.

30 mins ago I saw her out and about and I figured she was probably going to attempt her shed. It was then that I noticed that her tail looked odd .... infact, something was missing!

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/DSC_1178.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/DSC_1180.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/DSC_1181.JPG

I was faced with the above wound ... I cleaned the viv occupied by Fawn and the other parietalis girl, Biscuit, only 3 days ago. At this time I also noted their weights. I didn't notice that anything was amiss, if it was at the time.

Looking at the wound I estimate that this occured yesterday. All of the blood I can see in the viv is well dried and the tail, when I found it, had a faint smell of decay to it, though not overpowering.

I found the tail tip under the warm hide of the tank. A good 7 inches has been lost!

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/DSC_1182.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/DSC_1184.JPG

Points to consider:

There are no sharp point/surfaces anywhere in the enclosure.
There are two things that could have a chance to cause crushing damage - the waterbowl (which I they can't lift at all), or the warm hide (which isn't heavy enough in my opinion).
I certainly haven't trapped her tail at any point.
No discomfort/animosity other any other stress factors have been observed in the co-habitation of the two females since September.


A complete shock ... and a wonderful mystery for further debate ... I will have to seek out some iodine tomorrow.

P.S> forgot to add every shed in her entire history was complete.

[Stefan-A]

Fascinating.

[Selkielass]

Scary.
Any spot she could have wedged her tail while climbing, then broke it with a panicked movement or sudden reversal?
(Seam, lid joining gap/ridge etc.)

[gregmonsta]

Scary.
Any spot she could have wedged her tail while climbing, then broke it with a panicked movement or sudden reversal?
(Seam, lid joining gap/ridge etc.)

:rolleyes: This is about the only thing I can think of ....

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Very odd. It's good she isn't in pain and now you have 7 inches less of snake to feed ;)

[guidofatherof5]

Wow........... Ah.........

[chris-uk]

Really curious.

Anything of note when you look at the "cut" ends? It doesn't look like a clean cut from the photos, if it's been caused by trauma it looks more like a it was trapped, spine snapped and then the flesh torn. But that is pure speculation, there would need to be something for it to have got trapped by.
How does the lost bit of tail look, any sign of necrosis? It may be difficult to tell if it has been detached for a day or so.

15-20cm of tail lost... I'm staggered.

[gregmonsta]

Really curious.

Anything of note when you look at the "cut" ends? It doesn't look like a clean cut from the photos, if it's been caused by trauma it looks more like a it was trapped, spine snapped and then the flesh torn. But that is pure speculation, there would need to be something for it to have got trapped by.
How does the lost bit of tail look, any sign of necrosis? It may be difficult to tell if it has been detached for a day or so.

15-20cm of tail lost... I'm staggered.

It doesn't look clean and zooming in on the full size image here at home you can actually see a bit of spine. I can also only speculate that, as she loves to climb, that she could have been stretching for a point with her tail 'anchored' and fell awkwardly with the tail being pulled on by her bodyweight. The tail, then weakend, could have become trapped while burrowing under the warm hide or something. The intitial trauma could have happend a lot earlier too ... no idea. Where's Sherlock Holmes when I need him? :o

[d_virginiana]

Wow... Any chance there was some sort of localized injury (like a broken spine or something) that got infected, and then the whole thing maybe got ripped off during the shed? If the area was already infected or weakened, maybe it would've been easier for the rest of it to come off without too much additional trauma...
That's just crazy, hope she heals up quickly :(

[gregmonsta]

Wow... Any chance there was some sort of localized injury (like a broken spine or something) that got infected, and then the whole thing maybe got ripped off during the shed? If the area was already infected or weakened, maybe it would've been easier for the rest of it to come off without too much additional trauma...
That's just crazy, hope she heals up quickly :(
She actually hasn't shed yet. She just cleared up about 3 days ago. Like I said, it was because I thought she was going to start to shed that I was having a closer look. But yes, it could well have been an older injury for all we know

[Stefan-A]

If I had to guess, I'd say the tail got caught between or under something and the snake just twisted itself free, losing the tail in the process.

[gregmonsta]

Well, she's still doing fine. I've been teating the wound twice a day with iodine tincture (2.5%). She shed her skin the following day and also ate without thinking twice about it which is of some solace. The wound is fine for the moment but I'll be keeping a close eye on how it heals.
If the wound decides to seal round the bone instead of covering the small piece exposed, then vet intervention may be in order to remedy the situation.

[chris-uk]

Well, she's still doing fine. I've been teating the wound twice a day with iodine tincture (2.5%). She shed her skin the following day and also ate without thinking twice about it which is of some solace. The wound is fine for the moment but I'll be keeping a close eye on how it heals.
If the wound decides to seal round the bone instead of covering the small piece exposed, then vet intervention may be in order to remedy the situation.

I hope it heals nicely, but it shouldn't be any serious surgery if you do need a vet to deal with the bone. Having said that, could it be dealt with under a local anaesthetic? It would be a case of rolling back the skin, taking an extra vertebra or two off, then stitching back to close the wound properly. My guess would be that it would involve a general, which would be a bigger risk than the procedure.
Fingers crossed for a nicely healed wound without intervention.

[gregmonsta]

Will be going to seek a vet's opinion today. Some hassle though: the vet I used to use here in my own town stopped practicing here over a year ago - my other 'regular' vet has, as I've found out, stopped practicing at the centre where I used to be able to get access to him - so now I have even further to drive to find someone with a good reputation. Fingers crossed this new vet is worth the extra miles.

[gregmonsta]

Well, antibiotics today and tomorrow, op on Friday, back home Saturday. I've been given an arsenal of Baytril, flammazine cream and a painkiller.

They'll be going back another inch and a bit to clear the tip and potentially infected area. Anything to stop the infection progressing any further.

[chris-uk]

I assume you don't need me to ask you to make sure you get some good before and after photos? :)

[gregmonsta]

I got the phonecall that she'd made it through the op and had traveled back from the sister practice where the op had been done. Will be picking her up tomorrow morning.

I'll add another couple of 'before' pics while I'm here. Warning, they don't look tasty but it shows why I ended up going to the vet. With the swelling reduced more spine was exposed and it was still looking angry, inspite of treatment with iodine.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/poopoo.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/poopsicl.JPG

[guidofatherof5]

Keep us posted buddy.

[Lisa4john]

Poor girl. I hope she heals fast and is up and slithering happily along very soon.

[chris-uk]

Hope she's in better shape now. Definitely needed surgery.

[snake man]

Good to hear she is on the mend.

[gregmonsta]

She's been back and settled for a while. Vet opinion was that she was a feisty character .... beats me ... she has been her usual puppy dog self in my hands, lol. The wound still has a 'bandage' on it which I'm to remove tomorrow. There are 3 dissolvable stitches holding the wound together which I can leave to run their course or opt to remove after 3 weeks. She'll still be on daily baytril and pain meds for 2 weeks (but I think the pain meds will be dropped after the first if she appears to be doing fine).
Pics will follow tomorrow ;)

[Greg'sGarters]

My guess would be as many others have guessed, she got her tail stuck and it came off, snakes are believed to be descendants of lizards and many lizards can detach their tail. Not saying that she detached it, but I'd imagine that the tail has to be the weakest part of a snake's body, it's the closest thing to a limb that they have therefore it would most likely detach easier.

[gregmonsta]

'Wrapped' pics from yesterday:

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/DSC_1183.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/DSC_1185.JPG

Today's unveiling:

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/DSC_1187.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/DSC_1189.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/DSC_1193.JPG

Very neat job and she's doing fine. A good helping of foody things today will surely help her along :D.

[chris-uk]

Looks like a neat job and no sign of infection (as far as can be seen in the photos).

[guidofatherof5]

Looking good. Kudos to your Vet. nice work. Keep us posted on the recovery.

[Invisible Snake]

Very interesting thread.


She's been back and settled for a while. Vet opinion was that she was a feisty character .... beats me ... she has been her usual puppy dog self in my hands, lol. The wound still has a 'bandage' on it which I'm to remove tomorrow. There are 3 dissolvable stitches holding the wound together which I can leave to run their course or opt to remove after 3 weeks. She'll still be on daily baytril and pain meds for 2 weeks (but I think the pain meds will be dropped after the first if she appears to be doing fine).
Pics will follow tomorrow ;)

May I ask why they prescribed pain meds? I know the wound is serious, but how can you tell if a snake is in pain? What pain med did the vet prescribe and how do you administer it?

Hope she makes a speedy recovery for you you :)

[gregmonsta]

Very interesting thread.



May I ask why they prescribed pain meds? I know the wound is serious, but how can you tell if a snake is in pain? What pain med did the vet prescribe and how do you administer it?

Hope she makes a speedy recovery for you you :)

Well, she didn't give a reason but I did observe her attempting to rub her stub on various surfaces when she arrived. I administered her prescriptions and a while after, her attempts to itch/suppress discomfort ceased. So, in a way it will prevent her causing any ongoing damage from this kind of behaviour. The medication is called Metacam and is to be administered daily. From what I have read it is actually more of an anti-inflammatory but - reduced inflammation = reduced pain. I syringed this into her mouth at the start, but she will be receiving this (along with the Baytril) in the belly of a small smelt once a day.

[Selkielass]

Much much tidier looking.
(She has a purple fringe! Hee! Hee!
Looks like she should heal in no time at all, and I hope she takes her smelt with gusto!

[Lisa4john]

So glad she is doing better. :D

[Sherrie]

Wow. That's scary. I hope she heals quickly.

[gregmonsta]

Quick update - this girl is doing great and the 'tail' is healing nicely and looks perfectly clean with no signs of infection.

[mikem]

Just catching up on this thread.. wow, glad the surgery went well and she'd healing! Lucky girl for sure :)

[Natrix]

Just seen this Greg, Hope she heals up ok. :(

[guidofatherof5]

Quick update - this girl is doing great and the 'tail' is healing nicely and looks perfectly clean with no signs of infection.

Always nice to see good updates. Thanks Greg.