Sonoma County infernalis

[BUSHSNAKE]

this girl is gonna be a looker for sure, this specific local is different then Marin county infernalis. She is the only Sonoma County infernalis in U.S. collections. Steven Bol brought this local into collections, i obtained her directly from him.

[Ruth]

I want to come and live at your house.

[BUSHSNAKE]

ok, but only if you can cook lol;)

[Ruth]

:) I can but I think I'd just stand starring at the snakes.

[ConcinusMan]

Snakes are filing a restraining order against you as we speak because you creep them out LoL

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Sweet looking girl!

this girl is gonna be a looker for sure, this specific local is different then marin county infernalis. She is the only sonoma county infernalis in u.s. Collections. Steven bol brought this local into collections, i obtained her directly from him.

[thamneil]

Very unique! When I think of infernalis in my head, they look nothing like her.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Very unique! When I think of infernalis in my head, they look nothing like her.
She is different thats why i posted pictures so when someone else tells you they have Sonoma County infernalis they have something to compare. There is some missrepresentation going on. Poison to our hobby.

[Eddie]

Nice snake

[ConcinusMan]

She is different thats why i posted pictures so when someone else tells you they have Sonoma County infernalis they have something to compare.

And I've herped first-hand, populations of them that vary a lot and find ones that don't look exactly like anything shown in the hobby/pet trade. Then walk a few feet and I could easily find one that looks exactly like yours or anyone elses. Then, a few feet away I could find one that looks nothing like yours or any others from that county.

You could show me any infernalis from any county, or anywhere in the pet trade and I could go herping in one spot, in one county and show you a snake that looks exactly like what you got, or nothing like any you see online.:cool:

You could show me a "neon blue" infernalis, then show me the one you got there and tell me they came from the same spot and I would believe it because I've seen that kind of variation in one place before.

Then low and behold, I go herping for concinnus and pickeringi and encounter the same thing. Yes, there is some geographical differences in morphology but in some places, the varied morphology is the rule rather than an exception.

I wouldn't doubt it one bit if you told me that snake came from coastal Del Norte or Humbolt Co. I could probably find one there that looks exactly like it, and also one that looks nothing like it. :cool:

[chris-uk]

And I thought I was the philistine who had looked at the photo and thought... "nice infernalis, but what's so special about Sonoma County?", and "how can Bushsnake be so certain that no other infernalis line has originated from Sonoma County?".

So, what makes Sonoma County special, as opposed to this just being a beautiful infernalis?

[BLUESIRTALIS]

It's not that it's more special, but that it's a different locale so it adds more diversity to infernalis. If you look at the marin county infernalis available in the pet trade they are mostly black and red with a bluish belly and dorsal and if you look at this girl she has like a faded out brown color as well. I love the way this girl looks and hope to work with some in the future, but i love how vivid the blue is on the marin counties too!

[chris-uk]

Thanks, she's a beautiful snake and I'd love to have one with that sort of colouration. I wasn't sure what made Sonama County worthy of mention, but if it's about having fresh, beautiful blood I understand.

[BUSHSNAKE]

And I've herped first-hand, populations of them that vary a lot and find ones that don't look exactly like anything shown in the hobby/pet trade. Then walk a few feet and I could easily find one that looks exactly like yours or anyone elses. Then, a few feet away I could find one that looks nothing like yours or any others from that county.

You could show me any infernalis from any county, or anywhere in the pet trade and I could go herping in one spot, in one county and show you a snake that looks exactly like what you got, or nothing like any you see online.:cool:

You could show me a "neon blue" infernalis, then show me the one you got there and tell me they came from the same spot and I would believe it because I've seen that kind of variation in one place before.

Then low and behold, I go herping for concinnus and pickeringi and encounter the same thing. Yes, there is some geographical differences in morphology but in some places, the varied morphology is the rule rather than an exception.

I wouldn't doubt it one bit if you told me that snake came from coastal Del Norte or Humbolt Co. I could probably find one there that looks exactly like it, and also one that looks nothing like it. :cool:
the male i had with this girl looked more like a Marin County so yeah i understand varability, you know this. The reason i posted her is because she has the typical Sonoma County LOOK...thats what makes her different. If someone wants a Sonoma County infernalis it is because of how they typically look...they tend to have more red as they age. A Marin County doesnt get more red with age. Thats what attracted me to the Sonoma County infernalis.
It would be very easy to sell a Marin County as a Sonoma County and vice versa but that would be ignorant!!

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE SOME LIKE THIS!

http://www.californiaherps.com/snakes/images/tsinfernalisschl810.jpg

[BUSHSNAKE]

i like how that one has a yellow dorsal and blue laterals, shes awesome

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I also like how the black isn't really black but bluish so she looks like she glows. If you look on the website it says she is from santa clara county. I would like to know if the majority of them in that area look that nice.

[BUSHSNAKE]

shes gravid thats why shes glowing
When i find garters in populations they generally have a similar look with varability, doesnt mean they all look the same. Im sure infernalis are the same way.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Well they do say that pregnancy makes you glow.
shes gravid thats why shes glowing
when i find garters in populations they generally have a similar look with varability, doesnt mean they all look the same. Im sure infernalis are the same way.

[ConcinusMan]

I would like to know if the majority of them in that area look that nice.

I would say probably not. Remember that people tend to post pics of the exceptionally pretty ones. Same goes for pugets. This can cause a skewed impression of what is actually out there in the field. I pretty much would find just a few that were stunnning and "glowed" like that but certain areas of course do have more of them than other areas. I never really got into keeping them when I was herping for them. They were so damn wild and ferocious biters when caught that it never occurred to me to keep any LoL

[BLUESIRTALIS]

That's what i figured, but i would love to have some that look like her even though it would be impossible legally that is. :rolleyes:
i would say probably not. Remember that people tend to post pics of the exceptionally pretty ones. Same goes for pugets. This can cause a skewed impression of what is actually out there in the field.

[ConcinusMan]

That's what i figured, but i would love to have some that look like her even though it would be impossible legally that is. :rolleyes:

There's really no problem with that. it's legal to collect them in many counties but if you get caught by a wildlife officer you had better have a current CA fishing license and not be possessing too many of them. (there is a daily bag limit) I didn't have one at the time but then again I wasn't collecting. I didn't get hassled. In some places there were officers around but they seemed more concerned with checking people who were fishing or carrying firearms.

[BUSHSNAKE]

And I thought I was the philistine who had looked at the photo and thought... "nice infernalis, but what's so special about Sonoma County?", and "how can Bushsnake be so certain that no other infernalis line has originated from Sonoma County?".

So, what makes Sonoma County special, as opposed to this just being a beautiful infernalis?
I am not certain but im not stupid either. I know every garter breeder on this side of the ocean and i know our stock. I was still friends with Scott F when i got these.OK?? He said he had one that "looked" like a sonoma county by MY discription. Why would he want them anyway, people over here are only interested in Marin County infernalis.

[ConcinusMan]

Personally I think it's going far enough to make sure that you're breeding the same subspecies but I do know there are some purists out there that go so far as to keep locality lines pure.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I know you can collect 1 with a fishing permit, but i don't think you are supposed to sell them and i guess that's why you never see wildcaught infernalis for sale.
there's really no problem with that. It's legal to collect them in many counties but if you get caught by a wildlife officer you had better have a current ca fishing license and not be possessing too many of them. (there is a daily bag limit) i didn't have one at the time but then again i wasn't collecting. I didn't get hassled. In some places there were officers around but they seemed more concerned with checking people who were fishing or carrying firearms.

[ConcinusMan]

Well I'm not really sure how that would work. I think it's perfectly legal to keep some as pets and even move out of state, taking them with you. What if you sold them later then? Yes, I'm pretty sure it's illegal to collect for commercial purposes and export them from CA in that manner but I don't think they would care if you moved out of state and took some with you. I do know that if you're within the state of CA, they don't want you breeding them in captivity, selling them, importing natives from breeders in other states, or releasing them once they've been in captivity. Once you take them out of state I would think that none of that matters but don't quote me on that.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Im not real sure either. I would love to have some though! I have a good friend that lives in az and i have been begging him to take a trip and catch me a few!

[ConcinusMan]

Heck, I would love to take a herping trip again down the coastal route myself but it's way out of the way if I'm headed to Modesto/Bakersfield/Barstow/San Bernadino area which is usually the case when I go CA way. There's not only infernalis along the CA coast but there's some downright awesome spots for coast garters and atratus', and king snakes too. I know a spot right on the beach where literally thousands of coast garters congregate in the spring and also places near L.A. that have banded kings with unusually high band count/high white. All I tend to find inland is mostly gopher snakes and rattlesnakes.:(

[BLUESIRTALIS]

keep me in mind!

Heck, I would love to take a herping trip again down the coastal route myself but it's way out of the way if I'm headed to Modesto/Bakersfield/Barstow/San Bernadino area which is usually the case when I go CA way. There's not only infernalis along the CA coast but there's some downright awesome spots for coast garters and atratus', and king snakes too. I know a spot right on the beach where literally thousands of coast garters congregate in the spring and also places near L.A. that have banded kings with unusually high band count/high white. All I tend to find inland is mostly gopher snakes and rattlesnakes.:(

[ConcinusMan]

Sure but I don't think I'll be able to afford it anytime soon. If I go the coastal route, I'll either have to mostly sleep in my car since I don't know anyone along the coast, (except for one person clear down near Malibu) and/or pay for motel rooms, and the gas is outrageously expensive too.

[ConcinusMan]

My mom just landed in S.F. a minute ago but I don't think she'll be too keen on going herping for me. LoL

Two hour layover then she's off to San Luis Obispo for a week. Lucky dog. Haven't seen the sun here in WA for a month now.:mad:

[chris-uk]

I am not certain but im not stupid either. I know every garter breeder on this side of the ocean and i know our stock. I was still friends with Scott F when i got these.OK?? He said he had one that "looked" like a sonoma county by MY discription. Why would he want them anyway, people over here are only interested in Marin County infernalis.

Thanks for clearing that up. I was genuinely interested to know what made the Sonoma County locale special, other than looking a bit different.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Thanks for clearing that up. I was genuinely interested to know what made the Sonoma County locale special, other than looking a bit different.
theyre from Steven Bol. To me thats makes them special, he has the best stock on the planet lol

[Invisible Snake]

That's odd that the person who has the "best stock" doesn't live in the garters native country o.O

[chris-uk]

That's odd that the person who has the "best stock" doesn't live in the garters native country o.O

There's a certain irony to it - for Joe to get some of the best stock he had to import snakes back into their native country.(or continent in the case of his Mexican immigrants). But Steven Bol's does have some fantastic snakes, and he writes some damn good articles about them as well.

[Invisible Snake]

and he writes some damn good articles about them as well.

Are these "good articles" being kept secret? Is he a member of this forum?

[chris-uk]

Are these "good articles" being kept secret? Is he a member of this forum?

A lot of them are reproduced on his website. I don't think all are in English. Some are printed in the journal of the European Garter Snake Association.
I think he's a member of the forum, but I can't remember seeing him post recently. In the past he's been kind enough to send me a couple of his articles that I couldn't access online and he gave me some good advice when I contacted him to let him know that I had bought a pair of his Cuitzeos.

[Invisible Snake]

In case anyone isn't familiar with Steven Bol, this is a link to his website Welcome at Steven Bol Gartersnakes - Steven Bol Garter Snakes (http://stevenbolgartersnakes.com/)

[BUSHSNAKE]

That's odd that the person who has the "best stock" doesn't live in the garters native country o.O
explain, how is that "odd"?

[Invisible Snake]

explain, how is that "odd"?

Like for instance, you wouldn't expect a person living in another country to have the best stock of American Bald Eagles nor would you expect someone in the USA to have the best stock for Death Adders

[chris-uk]

explain, how is that "odd"?

Proximity to the species would normally infer access, and greater access would logically lead to a better ability to select the best samples.

[Invisible Snake]

Proximity to the species would normally infer access, and greater access would logically lead to a better ability to select the best samples.

Thank you for nicely articulating it for me lol

[BUSHSNAKE]

Proximity to the species would normally infer access, and greater access would logically lead to a better ability to select the best samples.
just seems like your saying S. Bol couldnt have the best stock cuz hes in Holland. All well.

[BUSHSNAKE]

That's odd that the person who has the "best stock" doesn't live in the garters native country o.O
so the best garters come from U.S. collections?

[Invisible Snake]

so the best garters come from U.S. collections?

That would be the presumption because Americans have an easier access to acquire wildcaught and certain morphs that are rare in Europe and other countries.

I've seen Steven Bol's website and he has some great looking garters and is very knowledgeable on Thamnophis.

[BUSHSNAKE]

That would be the presumption because Americans have an easier access to acquire wildcaught and certain morphs that are rare in Europe and other countries.

I've seen Steven Bol's website and he has some great looking garters and is very knowledgeable on Thamnophis.
Somethings have become very difficult to get because of laws, its becoming harder and harder to get native reptiles. The mexican species of Thamnophis i have to import from Steven Bol if want to have them. If i want unrelated U.S. species to U.S. bloodlines i either have to collect it myself, import it from Euro or wait untill i become lucky and come across someone who has unrelated bloodlines or wildcaughts.
Ive been looking for some real nice Kansas parietalis for a couple of years now. Theyre nowhere to be found in U.S. collections. I guess my best option for that is to go get them myself.

[chris-uk]

just seems like your saying S. Bol couldnt have the best stock cuz hes in Holland. All well.

Did you deliberately miss the point that I said you'd "normally" expect someone living closer to
have better access? I happen to think that Steve Bol is one of those exceptions, there aren't many European keepers who travel to local Thamnophis habitats like he does.


so the best garters come from U.S. collections?

Nope. Nobody said that. What was said was that you'd expect that to be the case. That's what makes Steve's collection unusual.


Somethings have become very difficult to get because of laws, its becoming harder and harder to get native reptiles. The mexican species of Thamnophis i have to import from Steven Bol if want to have them. If i want unrelated U.S. species to U.S. bloodlines i either have to collect it myself, import it from Euro or wait untill i become lucky and come across someone who has unrelated bloodlines or wildcaughts.
Ive been looking for some real nice Kansas parietalis for a couple of years now. Theyre nowhere to be found in U.S. collections. I guess my best option for that is to go get them myself.

So it's easier for a foreigner to come into the US and collect native reptiles?
Mexican species are a different matter, you're as much a foreigner there as Steve.
Some European snakes may well be related to your bloodlines, unless a line is imported privately there's virtually no traceability as to where the importer acquired the snakes. Again, Steve may be an exception as he keeps better records than most and I get the impression that he doesn't just pick up random snakes that catch his eye at reptile fairs.

[ConcinusMan]

so the best garters come from U.S. collections?

I guess you're going to have to define "best" in context. Best for what?

[BUSHSNAKE]

I guess you're going to have to define "best" in context. Best for what?
BEST TO WHOEVER...WHO CARES ANYWAYS...I DONT:mad:

[ConcinusMan]

Well you do seem to care or you wouldn't call them "best". All I'm asking is how you determine that they are "best". What's the criteria? :cool:

[BUSHSNAKE]

Well you do seem to care or you wouldn't call them "best". All I'm asking is how you determine that they are "best". What's the criteria? :cool:
yes i care does anyone else? Just knowing the species isnt good enough for me Richard, if i cant trace the bloodline back to the wild then they are WORTHLESS to me. Providing lineage history and origin is what its all about.