Sudden onset neurological problem

[hissies]

So my snake seems to have developed a neurological problem over the past few days. Sunday night I went to pick him up in order to clean his cage, which he responded to by squirming a bit (his usual reaction when I do that) but then suddenly degraded into a spiraling motion with his mouth open. I gently set him back down, where he continued to convulse and twitch for a moment. He righted himself not long after, and began acting normally again. Tongue flicking and so on, as he had before I'd moved him. I was able to clean out the cage later that night. Yesterday, he had two more seizures in the afternoon and evening, hours apart. I was alerted to these by hearing him thunk against the side of the enclosure. Each lasted several seconds. I'd been keeping an eye on him intermittently throughout the day, during which he appeared to be acting relatively normal- moving around the enclosure (casually), flicking his tongue every so often when I'd check in. This morning I found him laying belly-up. Initially I thought he had died, but I went to pick him up and he turned over, still alive and breathing, but lethargic. He's moved and slithered around my hands, but slowly and somewhat erratically (I'm wondering if he's having trouble consistently holding himself upright.) He isn't flicking his tongue. I keep putting his face near the water dish to encourage him to drink, though I haven't seen him do so today.

I got him from a friend in mid-late December, and have had him about a month and a half. He's an Eastern garter. I know that my friend kept him for a couple months before giving him to me, where he was fed pet store feeder minnows. All I know prior to that is that she got him from someone she knows, who got him from "some guy." I don't know his age, whether he was WC, or anything about his history.
He has never, to my knowledge, been fed tilapia or human-grade packaged fish. In my care he's been eating SF Bay brand silversides, and I had planned to start including earthworms and fresh fish fillet as well (though haven't yet.) He's been active, curious, eating like a champ since I got him, defecating and producing urates regularly, and had a perfect shed for me about two weeks ago. He's currently living alone. I did try to feed him last night, as it'd been 5-6 days since his last meal, and he hasn't touched it. Nothing's seemed off about him until two days ago.
He's currently on paper towel bedding (was on aspen when my friend had him) with cardboard hides and a glass water dish.
Ambient temperature ranges from 72-80 degrees, slightly cooler at night.

I've read through a bunch of seizure threads on here, and I don't know what could be causing this. A parasite or thiaminase problem is the only thing I can think of. I've never given him a vitamin supplement. I've only cleaned the enclosure with Dawn dish soap and water, making sure it's fully rinsed and dried before placing him back in it. He's eaten from the same batch/package of silversides the whole time. Nothing has changed in his environment that I'm aware of. Would a vet visit help anything? Would parasite treatment help, or is it too late if that's the case? Is there anything I can do?

[guidofatherof5]

I would suggest a Vet. visit.
From the evidence you've presented I would say thiaminase would be my first suspect. Not knowing the full history on the snake makes it difficult but also sheds a little light on what might be happening. I'm guessing the guy before the guy you got it from was feeding minnows also.
I think the only thing you can do at this time is switch to a more balanced diet and add in some supp.
I don't mean to be a downer but usually when a snake reaches this point because of thiaminase it is too late to do anything. I hope that isn't the case here.
Please keep us posted on this situation.

[Stefan-A]

It could be a consequence of mistakes made by previous owners.

My recommendation is, as usual, vet or euthanasia. I've heard that some have treated thiamin deficiency successfully themselves, but I fear that it may be too late for that.

[chris-uk]

It sounds like thiaminase could be the culprit if he was fed feeder minnows (I believe these are on the unsafe fish list) before you got him. Thiaminase deficiency is a gradual thing, so feeding a correct diet for the last month or so may not have been enough.

I know you don't know how old her is, but roughly how large is he? Approximate length and weight will tell us whether you have a young snake or an older one.

Many of the things you mention ring alarm bells and I'd say that the prognosis isn't looking good. However, if you can take him to a vet who knows about snakes then that would be my advice, and I wouldn't wait too long to do it. That you found him belly up and he's not flicking his tongue are signs that he needs urgent veterinary care if he's to make a recovery.

[d_virginiana]

Haven't I heard of people going to the vet to get vitamin injections for cases like this? I'm not sure what they are called, but it seems like the sort of thing you could ask for from a non-herp vet and still get. Does seem like something you'd have to ask for though since a vet with no reptile experience probably wouldn't know about it.
Sorry about this :( Whatever the culprit (likely thiaminase) the only options are vet, feeding the correct diet and hoping it doesn't get worse (unlikely to work), or euthanasia.

One more thing... What kind of water are you using? I figure you're treating it if you're using tap water, but sometimes people do not treat well water or buy distilled (rare but I've heard of people doing it). Well water can contain high heavy metal content depending on location, and distilled can sometimes disrupt internal osmotic functions (unlikely in snakes, but still worth asking about). Either of these things could potentially cause seizures.
Most likely is still thiaminase though.

[hissies]

I don't mean to be a downer but usually when a snake reaches this point because of thiaminase it is too late to do anything. I hope that isn't the case here.

Unfortunately, I was thinking the same thing. :(

His last shed measured 19 in. and he weighs 21g. I've been under the impression that he's a younger snake and I feel like he may have grown a bit since I received him, but that's speculation.

What might I expect a vet to do for him? I'm not doubting at all that a visit is the best idea, I just have no previous experience with reptiles and haven't come across much of anything about actually treating this problem. I like to walk in with at least an idea of what can be done, if treatment is an option. Medication? Injections? Either way, I will see how much my vet knows about snakes, and if they don't I know of at least one more in town that I've seen on recommended herp vet lists.

Thank you for the prompt responses. I'll be sure to keep you updated on what happens.

edit: d_virginiana, you posted at the same time I was writing this response! I've been using plain tap water. It's treated and not from a well, but I haven't put anything extra in it, like those reptile water treatment drops. (I did some research on that earlier on, and was under the impression it was okay not to use them.)

[d_virginiana]

Unfortunately, I was thinking the same thing. :(

His last shed measured 19 in. and he weighs 21g. I've been under the impression that he's a younger snake and I feel like he may have grown a bit since I received him, but that's speculation.

What might I expect a vet to do for him? I'm not doubting at all that a visit is the best idea, I just have no previous experience with reptiles and haven't come across much of anything about actually treating this problem. I like to walk in with at least an idea of what can be done, if treatment is an option. Medication? Injections? Either way, I will see how much my vet knows about snakes, and if they don't I know of at least one more in town that I've seen on recommended herp vet lists.

Thank you for the prompt responses. I'll be sure to keep you updated on what happens.

edit: d_virginiana, you posted at the same time I was writing this response! I've been using plain tap water. It's treated and not from a well, but I haven't put anything extra in it, like those reptile water treatment drops. (I did some research on that earlier on, and was under the impression it was okay not to use them.)

19 inches sounds like he could be either a fully grown or nearly full grown eastern male (they max out at about 24 inches for males).

The only thing I've heard of a vet can do for this is the vitamin injection. I have no personal experience with this, and may be getting the procedure confused with something else, so hopefully another member can clarify what I'm thinking about here...
I'd say definitely don't go to a vet without knowing exactly what you want from them. In cases like this you will end up doing a lot of expensive tests and/or procedures that end up not helping at all. Not necessarily the vet's fault, but if they don't know much about reptiles then their diagnostics are pretty horrible for anything that isn't super obvious (like an injury or infection).

Okay, to start off with, I don't think the water is the problem here at all now. Only mentioned the well water because some can have crazy metal content that has been known to cause seizures in frogs.
By 'treated' do you mean like... city water has been treated with chlorine and stuff? This is toxic to reptiles (snakes are pretty hardy so I doubt a month of that would cause seizures in a healthy snake so don't beat yourself up about that). In the future and for any other reptiles you might have, you need to treat it. 'Prime' is probably the best product around. You can find it in the aquarium aisle, and one bottle goes a LONG way. Just a couple drops per gallon, and it's good to go.

[ConcinusMan]

Why is everyone always so quick to blame thiaminase? The behavior described is what any snake in pain or severe discomfort does. Doesn't sound like a neurological problem at all. Swallowing a fish bone that punctures the intestine, trying to throw up something that is stuck, an infection or blockage, or any other cause of internal pain would cause a snake to act like that. Unfortunately symptoms like this sometimes don't show up until the snake is already "on his way out"

Thiamine deficiency doesn't just suddenly show up one day in a severe way like this.

"suddenly degraded into a spiraling motion with his mouth open". That doesn't sound like a seizure or neurological issue at all. Sounds more like a reaction to severe pain or discomfort.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I agree with Richard. Honestly there are a zillion issues that can cause this behavior. I think the thiaminase thing is a card that is way overplayed here. Not that it shouldn't be a valid concern... But to jump to that is just as bad as all of the python people that see a snake doing this and automatically want to blame IBD. Many of the Europeans (especially ones that either don't post here or left long ago) feed smelt on a regular basis. Not to mention the countless numbers of customers I had that fed goldfish and had garter and ribbon snakes that were going on 8 and 10 years old. Some of my local populations live on catfish, especially the nerodia down the street. It is no wonder customers would look at me as if I am crazy when I would recommend switching foods when they had been feeding a thiaminase laden fish for the Snake's entire life. I used to be really adamant about it and still will not offer goldfish, but I think that this forum as a whole needs to start taking other issues into account a little more.

[guidofatherof5]

The evidence as presented lead me to thiaminase.
I don't think the forum is doing anything wrong when these situation are looked at objectively but with a lack of evidence to some other cause, raising the thiaminase flag simply alerts people to a possible cause for the problem.
I don't think thiaminase is used as a scapegoat but certainly is suspect when the evidence leans that direction.
Just my opinion.

Lora, please read this link.
http://www.gartersnake.info/articles/2012/all-about-thiaminase.php

[chris-uk]

OK, it's not necessarily thiaminase deficiency. Whatever the cause, the symptoms described are far from encouraging.

The trouble is that so few snakes get a proper necropsy that cause of death is rarely determined with any certainty, so the prevalence isn't clear. . The symptoms and history could fit thiaminase deficiency, it's something I've not experienced first hand and hope I never do so I can only go with descriptions I've read. Maybe other causes fit the symptoms as well. Richard threw out a few ideas for possible causes, but mainly put the symptoms down to a snake in extreme pain (I fail to see how the symptoms didn't sound like a neurological problem), that is a cause that can be proved as easily as thiaminase deficiency.
In the circumstances described by the OP there really are two options - get it to a good vet, or watch for the progression of symptoms and be prepared to euthanase or watch it die.

[Stefan-A]

I think that this forum as a whole needs to start taking other issues into account a little more.
Neither this forum nor any other can remote diagnose. It doesn't matter what issues are taken into account.



ps. there are differences between smelts, there are differences between f/t and live and diets in the wild are normally varied, but that's a separate discussion.

[d_virginiana]

It could be any number of things, but Thiaminase deficiency is one of the only ones where there is a potential treatment or something the owner can do (supplementing the necessary vitamin). It could be a protozoan ingested by eating gross petstore minnows has infested the brain and spinal cord and is now causing seizures, or it could be that heavy metal poisoning from a water supply is causing them, or maybe the snake isn't full grown and it has a congenital disorder that's just now showing up. It could be a infection, perforated intestine, failed liver, or any other condition that might allow toxins to build up in the body and affect the brain. But then again, most of those last ones should show other symptoms before it gets to that stage.

I have to agree with Steve, thiaminase is the easiest thing to blame given the history, but it's also the only one that the owner really has a chance to do anything about and maybe reverse or at least stop the damage being done. Even with that the outlook is bleak by the time seizures start up.

On that note: Am I just hallucinating there being a member a few years ago who got vitamin injections for a couple seizing ribbons and saw some success? I think maybe one died and one lived or something like that? It was near when I first joined, so I really had no clue what was up and don't remember it 100%.

[ConcinusMan]

Whatever the cause, the symptoms described are far from encouraging.

True, but the condition that caused it, and the behavior/reaction could also only be temporary and might pass. Simple gas pains can cause the symptoms/behavior described.


On that note: Am I just hallucinating there being a member a few years ago who got vitamin injections for a couple seizing ribbons and saw some success?

That very well could be, but who's to say that the symptoms wouldn't have passed without the injections? Also, over-supplementing when it's not necessary can can be as disastrous as the deficiency itself.


neither this forum nor any other can remote diagnose. It doesn't matter what issues are taken into account.

bingo!

[d_virginiana]

I always wonder why people get so upset over anyone mentioning Thiaminase deficiency... I'll be the first to say that feeding unsafe foods doesn't necessarily cause this problem. My adult ate SOLELY baitstore minnows for over a decade until I learned better, and is still healthier than a lot of snakes I see that are half his age. Doesn't mean I will get the same result if I start another snake on that same diet.
In four years of taking neuroscience courses, I never came across a neurological phenomenon in any species that couldn't vary so much in onset-age, severity, and recovery rate that two cases could look like completely different disorders.

Garters are incredibly common, and not of very high interest ecologically or in the pet trade, so we'll likely NEVER get solid data on the effect of thiaminase on this species.



True, but the condition that caused it, and the behavior/reaction could also only be temporary and might pass. Simple gas pains can cause the symptoms/behavior described.

I could understand thinking the cause might be something non-neurological if the symptoms only included the 'death rolling'. But how often does simple gas pain cause a snake to have seizures (yes, I know we can't diagnose whether or not it is truly a seizure, especially without video), lie belly up, or have difficulty controlling its muscle movements? I'm no expert by any means, but I have studied neuroscience, and everything I've read sounds a heck of a lot more like a neurological issue than simple gas pains. That's a possibility, yes, but it just seems like a much less probable one.



That very well could be, but who's to say that the symptoms wouldn't have passed without the injections? Also, over-supplementing when it's not necessary can can be as disastrous as the deficiency itself.

Yes, the cause could have been something other than thiaminase. But when you have two ribbons being fed exclusively rosy reds, both develop seizures, and vitamin injections stop the seizures and save one, IMO it is more logical to assume that thiaminase was the issue than to assume that two snakes being fed high amounts of thiaminase both randomly developed severe neurological conditions, and one improved randomly with no relation to receiving medical treatment known to combat thiaminase poisoning.

Personally, if the snake didn't begin to improve within a day or two or if its symptoms started worsening rapidly, I'd look into getting the injection if it were my pet. I realize that can be just as fatal as the deficiency (kind of like antibiotics in very small snakes). But there's probably a point of no return in situations like this, and when it got bad enough for me to think it wasn't likely to resolve itself, I'd probably be willing to take that risk even if I couldn't be sure what was causing it or if it would help.

[ConcinusMan]

I always wonder why people get so upset over anyone mentioning Thiaminase deficiency...

Who's upset? Just trying to bring some balance/other things to consider. All too often people are just so quick to blame thiamine deficiency/thiaminase poisoning just because their snake ate a few minnows and is now spazzing out. I've had them develop tremors, seizures, etc or even spazz out in the way described when they haven't had a bit of thiaminase. One time I had them develop tremors after eating trout for a long time. Took them off the trout and all but one recovered. Now, supposedly trout doesn't have it, and supposedly they don't go from healthy to thiaminase poisoning in just a couple of months. But it sure looked like thiaminase poisoning. Doesn't mean it was, especially considering it was trout.

Now, what was described just doesn't sound like a neurological problem at all. No tremors? No vibrating? No problems moving around? Just sudden rolling and mouth open, etc. All I know is that I've see snakes act like that when it couldn't possibly be thiaminase, more times than I can count. Sometimes it just passes and the cause is never known. Sometimes they just throw up and feel better. Sometimes they just drop dead soon after. We don't really know what the snake's problem is, and that's the point I'm trying to make. If the snake just drops dead tomorrow one could just say he died because of thiaminase and that might even be true but the point is we don't really know that.

And yeah, in my opinion it doesn't sound like a neurological problem but I don't claim that it isn't. Just doesn't sound like it is all, from the basic description. It's not like I have the snake right here under observation.

[d_virginiana]

No one seems to get angry, it just seems that the thiaminase thing is almost political. I think it's where it hasn't ever been proven in snakes or something, idk.

But like you mentioned there's no way to tell whether the snake is seizing or not without observation... I know it would be hard to get but a video of the snake's behavior would be great. Even if he's not 'seizing' or doing anything crazy, just a video of him crawling around, or maybe wrapping around your hand would give people a much better idea of whether or not he's having neurological difficulties.




Now, what was described just doesn't sound like a neurological problem at all. No tremors? No vibrating? No problems moving around? Just sudden rolling and mouth open, etc. All I know is that I've see snakes act like that when it couldn't possibly be thiaminase, more times than I can count.

I thought the owner said the snake was 'flipping' and lying on its back, and seemed to have trouble maintaining balance while crawling, as well as moving erratically/slowly? Maybe I misread that... That's what made me think 'neuro'.
But yeah, 'death rolling' and mouth gaping don't mean neuro issues, so much as they mean 'unhappy snake'. I've had perfectly healthy wild water snakes death roll and mouth gape at me just because they were scared. Definitely not disagreeing with you there!

[hissies]

Now, what was described just doesn't sound like a neurological problem at all. No tremors? No vibrating? No problems moving around? Just sudden rolling and mouth open, etc.


No, the sudden rolling was describing the first seizure. d_virginiana's right, I did say in my first post that afterwards he's acted lethargic, slithering erratically, and seems unable to keep himself upright. He's had at least four more small episodes like this since, being in the enclosure without me touching or interacting with him at all, some of which I've witnessed more of. It's like he suddenly flails, then seizes up in a varying "crinkled" position, often with the tip of his tail tremoring while the rest of his body is still. Twice I've seen him flick his tongue out during one of these, holding it out for several seconds while he's seized. It seems like after the second and third times, his motor control's worsened. He tends to the left even when slithering slowly (a 'circling' behavior I've seen and known to be caused by neurological issues in mammals, for what it's worth- I know reptiles are different.)

We just got back from the vet. He told me that it is definitely a neuro issue, and after further examination and calling two specialists, told me that he thinks it's inclusion body disease. He told me that there is a test they can do to determine this for sure, but heavily implied that he didn't think it was worth doing. He said that parasites and vitamin deficiencies are other possibilities, though he seemed fairly well convinced that it is IBD. He told me he wanted to give me time to think about it and wasn't going to euthanize him today, but if this is what it is then there is no treatment. The vet also offered to refer me to a specialist a couple hours away if I was inclined to get a more in-depth opinion.

He did give my snake a thiamin shot, stating that it won't hurt anything and in case it might help. I plan on doing my own research on IBD- I've only read about it incidentally, as I've only ever seen it referenced in relation to python species. What do you think? Should I get a second opinion (from the specialist or my usual vet?) Is it worth having the test done? Should I just try and manage it for the next few days and if he continues to seize/fails to eat, have him PTS? I plan on giving it at least a couple days to see if the thiamin shot helped, but I won't let him suffer or starve to death.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I have never heard of ibd in garter snakes! Has your garter been in contact with a boa or a python? Ibd is a disease that infects boas and pythons and i find it very unlikely that a garter would have ibd.

[Invisible Snake]

I highly doubt it is IBD.

[hissies]

Neither have I! I haven't been around the garter scene for long, but the few articles I read on it months ago implied that it was python-specific. Vet did say it can affect all snakes.

However, when he was living at my friend's house, she got a Dumeril's boa that he was sharing close quarters with (she mentioned splitting a heat source between the two.) They weren't in the same cage and I don't imagine she would have had them both out at the same time, but I don't know if that matters. I know she got the boa from a reptile show. She also has a carpet python that she's had for over a year, and several of her friend's snakes have been in and out of her apartment.

[chris-uk]

This is an interesting development, I've read a little about IBD but not a lot because (like others) I was under the impression that it didn't affect garters.

Please keep us informed, because if IBD can affect garters it turns a whole lot of assumptions around. I wouldn't like to ask you to go to the expense of the test the vet mentioned, however it would really serve the garter community if you had the test done and it turns out positive. Would it be the first confirmed case of IBD in a garter?

[guidofatherof5]

Please keep us posted on this situation. Best of luck.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

It can affect other snakes, but it's very unlikely. It is a disease that is usually spread from snake to snake by mites and through the years i have known several boa and python breeders that lost almost their whole collection due to this disease, but none of their colubrids were ever infected.

[d_virginiana]

Hopefully it isn't IBD and the shot helps him. I don't keep boas, so I've never heard of that disease.

Best of luck, and keep us updated on his condition.

[chris-uk]

Identification, Characterization, and In Vitro Culture of Highly Divergent Arenaviruses from Boa Constrictors and Annulated Tree Boas: Candidate Etiological Agents for Snake Inclusion Body Disease (http://mbio.asm.org/content/3/4/e00180-12.full)

Useful article from Aug 2012 if anyone else is wanting to read more about IBD.

[guidofatherof5]

Great link Chris. Thanks.

[guidofatherof5]

Identification, Characterization, and In Vitro Culture of Highly Divergent Arenaviruses from Boa Constrictors and Annulated Tree Boas: Candidate Etiological Agents for Snake Inclusion Body Disease (http://mbio.asm.org/content/3/4/e00180-12.full)

Useful article from Aug 2012 if anyone else is wanting to read more about IBD.

Here's another article on this subject. Thanks Steve Schmidt for the link.

http://labs.vetmed.ufl.edu/files/2012/01/IBDReview2010_JexoticPet.pdf

[guidofatherof5]

The evidence as presented lead me to thiaminase.
I don't think the forum is doing anything wrong when these situation are looked at objectively but with a lack of evidence to some other cause, raising the thiaminase flag simply alerts people to a possible cause for the problem.
I don't think thiaminase is used as a scapegoat but certainly is suspect when the evidence leans that direction.
Just my opinion.

Lora, please read this link.
All About Thiaminase - Gartersnake.info (http://www.gartersnake.info/articles/2012/all-about-thiaminase.php)


I meant hissies please read this. Sorry.

[guidofatherof5]

No, the sudden rolling was describing the first seizure. d_virginiana's right, I did say in my first post that afterwards he's acted lethargic, slithering erratically, and seems unable to keep himself upright. He's had at least four more small episodes like this since, being in the enclosure without me touching or interacting with him at all, some of which I've witnessed more of. It's like he suddenly flails, then seizes up in a varying "crinkled" position, often with the tip of his tail tremoring while the rest of his body is still. Twice I've seen him flick his tongue out during one of these, holding it out for several seconds while he's seized. It seems like after the second and third times, his motor control's worsened. He tends to the left even when slithering slowly (a 'circling' behavior I've seen and known to be caused by neurological issues in mammals, for what it's worth- I know reptiles are different.)

We just got back from the vet. He told me that it is definitely a neuro issue, and after further examination and calling two specialists, told me that he thinks it's inclusion body disease. He told me that there is a test they can do to determine this for sure, but heavily implied that he didn't think it was worth doing. He said that parasites and vitamin deficiencies are other possibilities, though he seemed fairly well convinced that it is IBD. He told me he wanted to give me time to think about it and wasn't going to euthanize him today, but if this is what it is then there is no treatment. The vet also offered to refer me to a specialist a couple hours away if I was inclined to get a more in-depth opinion.

He did give my snake a thiamin shot, stating that it won't hurt anything and in case it might help. I plan on doing my own research on IBD- I've only read about it incidentally, as I've only ever seen it referenced in relation to python species. What do you think? Should I get a second opinion (from the specialist or my usual vet?) Is it worth having the test done? Should I just try and manage it for the next few days and if he continues to seize/fails to eat, have him PTS? I plan on giving it at least a couple days to see if the thiamin shot helped, but I won't let him suffer or starve to death.


See if you Vet. can give you some oral thiamin to continue treating the snake.

[hissies]

Wonderful news! He ate four chunks of silverside roughly the size of his head, and one whole one (broken in half) this morning. He's still circling and moving slowly, but appears to be moving around a little more, and his tongue is flicking again. :) I did have to help him eat- he'd smell the silverside and open his mouth toward it, I would get the edge of it in and hold it in place while he "chewed" it down like a normal feeding. He usually eats 5 or 6 chunks at a time, so I stopped there- it's been longer than normal since he last ate, but I didn't want to overfeed him. I will offer him more tomorrow if he seems interested. He also looked a little dehydrated to me- neck thinner than usual, slightly wrinklier than usual appearance to a couple parts of his skin. I held him near some running water for a few minutes, he opened his mouth and seemed to go for a few drinks. I switched out his water dish for a shallow tupperware lid, hopefully making that a lot easier for him to access.

Fingers crossed that he won't regurgitate it. I haven't seen him seize yet today, either, not like he was. Granted, I've only been home/around him for a couple hours, but still. He did three times shortly after we returned from the vet yesterday.

I do think it's early to call "the thiamin shot helped!", and we're definitely not out of the woods yet, but with his condition the past few days this looks like a major improvement. I'm just excited that he's tongue flicking again, and that he ate. I'm going to report back to the vet, and I will ask about the oral thiamin. (guidofatherof5, I did look at that article! Thanks to you and Chris for the IBD links, too.)

edit: talked to the vet, he told me the shot he gave is good for at least a week. He still seems fairly convinced that vitamin deficiency isn't the problem, but told me that if it helps he'd rather teach me how to give injections, which would be fine. I can only hope he improves, but if this is the extent he remains at I may go for the blood test, or quite likely a second opinion.

[guidofatherof5]

Great news. Hope he continues to improve.

[chris-uk]

Great news. Keep observing over the weekend and let us know how he's doing.

[guidofatherof5]

Any chance he has a retained shed?
This part of your post caught my attention "slightly wrinklier than usual appearance to a couple parts of his skin."

[guidofatherof5]

Check this out. B1 for sale. Thanks Steve Schmidt.

Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) (http://www.honeycombsvitamins.com/product/505)

[d_virginiana]

You'll never know for certain whether or not the thiamin shot helped, but I think you definitely made the right call getting the shot.

It's great that he's eating and doesn't seem to be in much pain/distress! Since you are looking at a condition where the snake was seizing badly, keep in mind his condition may never get completely back to normal (it could, but neuro issues are funny like that).

[guidofatherof5]

Check this out. B1 for sale. Thanks Steve Schmidt.

Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) (http://www.honeycombsvitamins.com/product/505)

Also keep in mind that injectable B1 can become toxic. Oral doesn't have that issue.

[chris-uk]

Also keep in mind that injectable B1 can become toxic. Oral doesn't have that issue.

But in a crisis situation injection is the way to go. Supervised by a vet you'd hope that you wouldn't end up with a toxic dose.

[Selkielass]

Im so glad he's holding on and eating!
Warm soak can help with both dehydration and shed problems.

[guidofatherof5]

But in a crisis situation injection is the way to go. Supervised by a vet you'd hope that you wouldn't end up with a toxic dose.

Indeed, you would hope so. Good point to bring up Chris.;)

[hissies]

Well, it seems whatever improvement I saw must have only been part of that "surge" some beings get before they go downhill for good. He passed away sometime during the night on friday. :( It looked like he went peacefully, calmly stretched out in his enclosure, not in the midst of a seizure. I will be having an autopsy done- I'd like to know what caused this, especially since the prospect of ibd was brought up.

Thank you for all the support and input. I will keep you guys updated when the results come back- the doctor said it will take at least a week.

RIP, little Vasili. I'm sorry I couldn't have done more.

(guidofatherof5, I don't think he had a retained shed. His last shed was on January 19th.)

[Invisible Snake]

I'm sorry for your loss :(

[guidofatherof5]

R.I.P. Vasili

[chris-uk]

Sorry for your loss.

You got him to a vet (who seemed to have a fair idea as to what he was doing) so I think you did as much as you could. I'm glad you're having the cause of death investigated, and I hope the results set your mind to rest.

[ProXimuS]

Sorry to hear this :(

[Selkielass]

My condolences to you.