Can anyone please help?!?

[SnakeDoctor]

Ok I posted some pics here a few years back of a Eastern Garter called Cyclone. She is a WC female and has been doing great up until this year. It started a month or so back when she went into the “blue” to shed and never shed. She since then has been soaked overnight. I added spag moss as bedding and moisture.After doing all this I still have yet to get her to shed. Now she’s started looking bad as far as color goes. Her diet consists of rat pups and strips of salmon and trout. She is still feed at her current state but looks bad. I had thought about maybe it could be something internal and would try Baytril but the vets in my area know little to nothing about snakes which I find odd. What is your take or advise on this situation?

Thanks,
Doc

[Stefan-A]

That snake looks severely dehydrated, but I'm no vet. If it failed to shed, it not only needs to be soaked, it also needs help to get the shedding started.

What substrate have you been using?

[guidofatherof5]

The retained shed must be removed. This is a serious situation.
A warm shed box and if needed you have to manually remove it.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/11703-retained-shed-indentication-treatment.html

Cs0Vqm2pP18

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

My gosh Jay I had no idea it was that bad!!! The picture of her looking all dry must not have loaded on FB. Still, do as I and these guys have suggested!

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I agree with everyone else. I would get that old skin off as soon as possible. I would let her soak in some water for an hour or so and then manually remove the skin just be careful around the eyes and once you get it started she will do the rest all you have to do is hold the skin and let her pull out of it. I hope you get her back to normal she is a beautiful snake and i hope she gets to reproduce.

[SnakeDoctor]

Hey thanks to all the response so far. I have tried the 24hr warm soak with no luck, the shed must really be stuck. Currently she is in a tub with minimal amount of holes for air to help hold in the moisture from the sphagnum moss substrate. I have noticed that this breeding season my ball pythons and burms seem to all have some sort humidity issue which I never had issues with before. So to combat that issue I have installed a humidifier which has also helped my breeder females start to accept the males for breeding. Back to the garter female, this morning I used the scotch tape method and had success in removing the what might be the first layer of retained shed from her face and eye cap areas. I will continue this afternoon after work with the rest of the body and also see how she is reacting now that at least one layer of eye caps was removed. I will also feed her tomorrow so that she will regain her strength as the whole time I am “tape shedding” her she is fighting back. I am sure the tape felling is very uncomfortable. I will get back with everyone possibly Sunday some time with her progress. Once again thank you all for your responses and tips.

SnakeDoctor Jay Weaver

[chris-uk]

What's the "Scotch tape method"?

I've not come across it before, but I'd never dream of putting tape of any kind near my snakes... The worst retained shed I worked on required lots of soaking and shed box time, a scalpel and tweasers and sessions over the course of a couple of days to get the shed off.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

The scotch tape method is for removing eye caps!

[guidofatherof5]

Start the sink running with lukewarm water. Hold the snake in the running water at a place you know where the old shed and new skin meet. The running water will help get under the old shed and make it easier to remove it. It can be an long process but it is very important the old shed gets off ASAP.

[i_heart_sneakie_snakes]

This is scary!! I hope you able to get that old shed off her before its too late. Good Luck.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Yep! Steve has it! After a soak hold her under the faucet and run the water over wherever you are pulling skin from the whole time. Stay there until she is completely peeled. Use your fingernail to keep scraping at the skin until it comes up. It might take an entire hour but that skin cannot be left alone even for a couple hours, it can and will kill her!

[BUSHSNAKE]

geeez thats aweful, the tail skin is sometimes the easiest to get off starting at the vent in a situation like this and work in reverse

[Greg'sGarters]

The scotch tape method is for removing eye caps!

What I like to do for removing retained eye caps is to take a rubber thumb (see below), the type cashiers use for counting money, and rub that over the snake's eye. Soak the snake in lukewarm water first, to help loosen it up a bit. Please do this gently, remember, you are working with the snake's EYE, anyone (if not most people) who wear contact lenses will tell you that it is best to remove the contact lens GENTLY. Same thing goes for the snake.

8169

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Weird... I have never, in all my life, heard of or seen anyone using one of those things. And I spent 6 years of my time in retail. They weren't even on the supply list!

[ConcinusMan]

You guys know I don't sugar coat things so here goes...

That doesn't look good at all. Someone mentioned dehydration but I doubt that's the case. A snake that has retained it's shed will get that crinkly look. Usually by the time that happens, the old skin is already fused to the new one and you can't get it off without injuring the snake. I wish you luck, but I have to tell you that I've never had them survive once it gets that bad. It eventually progresses to having trouble breathing, then death.

Getting the skin off is essential, but like I said, if it's been too long you end up peeling off the new skin too, injuring the snake. And if it's gotten that far, there's not much you can do. If you don't get it off and it progresses to the point where she's having trouble breathing (she'll be "gaping" or opening her mouth and breathing will be labored) then you might want to consider euthanizing since that suffering can go on for weeks before she dies.:(

[d_virginiana]

Could vegetable oil help with this? (Hear me out) I know it's not typically something you'd want to put on your snake, but is there a possibility it could help with loosening the old skin from the new skin a bit?

The only reason I mention this is that a few weeks ago my turtle was having some severe issues with dry skin. I put literally only one drop of vegetable oil on the worst area of her neck and rubbed it in. The change was almost immediate and weeks later the skin is still incredibly soft and healthy, so the oil definitely has the ability to soften skin. (I only did this once btw and have since bought a humidifier that seems to help. Just so everyone knows I don't normally dunk my critters in vegetable oil :) )
I doubt it will get miraculous results at such an advanced stage of retained shed, but it shouldn't make the situation worse so IMO it might be worth a shot.

[ConcinusMan]

Mineral oil is best but I don't think that light vegetable oil, such as canola would hurt anything. I doubt you can make things worse by using it. Still, if it's been too long, the old and new skin become one and you can't remove one without taking the other with it.

[guidofatherof5]

I have found the running warm water method to always work. It can be a long process but worth the time. Also, if you can change the water flow to a spray that helps to get the water under the old shed. It's important you work from an area were the old and new skin meet.

[chris-uk]

I managed to get a fused shed of one of my checkered babies (it's how I learned the hard way what a retained shed was) or at least I got most of it off. Unfortunately she was also a non eater and FTT, but I managed to prevent the retained shed killing her. It took a lot of time in a sink of warm water removing pieces a millimetre or two across a bit at a time. The only thing I had that got between the old and new skin was a scalpel blade, as you can imagine it was a long drawn out operation. I prioritised splitting the old shed along the spine to give some breathing space then worked from there.

Good luck with the shed.

[snake man]

Can we get an update on how the snake is doing?

[thamneil]

Never had something this drastic happen with stuck shed. Hope everything went alright.

[SnakeDoctor]

Update...she's doing good, fed a rat pup on Saturday & Sunday. Will proceed with removing retained shed tonight under running warm water. I will update again after this. Thank you all again for the much appreciated tips and your personal experiences with this particular issue.

Thanks
SnakeDoctor Jay Weaver

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I have also heard of people using pencil erasers. I have always just used my finger with no problems.
What I like to do for removing retained eye caps is to take a rubber thumb (see below), the type cashiers use for counting money, and rub that over the snake's eye. Soak the snake in lukewarm water first, to help loosen it up a bit. Please do this gently, remember, you are working with the snake's EYE, anyone (if not most people) who wear contact lenses will tell you that it is best to remove the contact lens GENTLY. Same thing goes for the snake.

8169

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Glad to hear she is doing better! I hope you can get the old skin off.

Update...she's doing good, fed a rat pup on Saturday & Sunday. Will proceed with removing retained shed tonight under running warm water. I will update again after this. Thank you all again for the much appreciated tips and your personal experiences with this particular issue.

Thanks
SnakeDoctor Jay Weaver

[guidofatherof5]

I'm not sure you have grasped the severity of this situation. A RETAINED SHED CAN KILL A SNAKE! Get it off NOW. Forget the food or anything else you have going on and attend to the snake.
I'm sorry to be so blunt but this is life or death to this snake.
No disrespect intended.

[SnakeDoctor]

Guidofatherof5 no offence, but I am VERY aware of this situation and in the MANY years of caring and breeding snakes as I have had, (30+ years to be exact), I know what this can lead to. I also know this situation could also be caused internally and not just from simple humidity issue. What YOU are not considering in her current state if she were to regurgitate any of her food it can kill her much faster than the current retained shed issue. I’ve delt with several reptile health issues over the years and there is one thing they ALL have in common, if they don’t have the strength and nutrition they WILL die no matter what you do for them or drug you inject into them. That being said she is doing better and more alert as of this morning. Tonight her food should be digested enough to proceed with methods mentioned to remove the remaining shed. I will however get her to a point so that when the next shed comes she should be able to get it past her heart and lung regions and then I can help her with the remaining 1/3rd of her body to tail.
I will update you guys tomorrow and thank you for keeping up with her progress.

SnakeDoctor Jay Weaver



I'm not sure you have grasped the severity of this situation. A RETAINED SHED CAN KILL A SNAKE! Get it off NOW. Forget the food or anything else you have going on and attend to the snake.
I'm sorry to be so blunt but this is life or death to this snake.
No disrespect intended.

[Spankenstyne]

Hope it all works out.

I'm sure you're well aware, but for anyone inexperienced reading this as a reference later on: Please make sure your snake is well hydrated before feeding. Trying to feed if it's not sufficiently hydrated, especially in a situation like this, can be fatal. Once the immediate danger has been dealt with, analyze the situation and try to address the underlying cause. Every situation is different.

[Stefan-A]

When the snake didn't shed, you waited about a month before showing up here asking for help. We told you what needed to be done and how to do it. Instead of taking action immediately, by which I mean removing the retained shed in its entirety in one sitting that very day, you've delayed the shedding by almost a week and you've fed the snake twice, putting undue stress on it at a time when it for all intents and purposes has an ever-tightening noose around its neck, and yesterday you announced plans to start shedding the snake before the food was even digested. To your credit, you now show some concern that the food didn't yet have time to digest, but this delay was completely unnecessary and in all probability counterproductive. You don't have a healthy snake there, you have one that's slowly being shrink-wrapped in its own skin. The proper course of action is not to stuff it and take it slow. Are you now telling us that you don't even intend to completely remove the shed, or did I misread?

[d_virginiana]

Feeding a severely dehydrated snake, weakened from a month of having a retained shed, and likely with internal organ damage because of this (in all seriousness, even if you get that off I don't see this girl bouncing back 100%) with the most difficult-to-digest food item garters can eat is probably the worst thing you can do. Especially since it means ignoring an immediate problem for several more days.
If you have over thirty years of experience, why did you let it get this bad before even attempting to remove it? I'm not trying to be offensive here, but if you have enough experience that you can disregard all the advice given to you by multiple people (which was unanimously to IMMEDIATELY remove the shed) then why bother posting in the first place if you had no intention of heeding the advice?

It's always nicer to be working with an otherwise healthy snake, but for pretty much any in-home medical procedure, not just this, the snake being fed is NOT necessary, and is sometimes even a bad thing (such as for a healing injury). If a snake is so far gone that holding it under running luke-warm water and rubbing its skin for an hour or two is going to kill it, then you are probably working with a lost cause.

[ConcinusMan]

Risking that it might look like I'm just "jumping on the bandwagon" here, I gotta agree with that.^^^

Shouldn't even be feeding, given that this is obviously a retained shed. That skin is already strangling the snake. Feeding can only make it worse. We did say you should try to remove the old skin IMMEDIATELY yet here it is nearly a week later and you haven't even tried. Those days that passed can make the difference between being able to get it off, and it being hopelessly stuck. At this point I don't even think you should try. It's been way too long and trying to peel now will only injure the snake.


But in all honesty, I think that by the time the picture was taken, the skin was already hopelessly stuck. A troubled shed is one thing, but delaying allows the skin to become permanently stuck and once that happens, the snake takes on that wrinkled look. I think it was a lost cause already before the thread even started. Like I said, I've never had one survive once it got to that point. Once it's permenently stuck and the snake wrinkles like that, you can't get it off without literally skinning the snake alive. Once it is stuck, the only thing you can do is watch while the snake is slowly killed via strangulation by it's own skin.

This is pretty much what I said the first time, only I said it in a little "softer"way because there might have been a small chance of getting the skin off if you had acted immediately. At this point, my 30 plus years experience, and having seen this before, tells me that the snake is probably a lost cause. It can take just a week or two, or several months, but the condition of a full body permanently stuck shed is 100% fatal. It's just a matter of time.

Also have to consider that when this happens, it's usually a symptom of a much bigger underlying health problem and not necessarily caused by improper husbandry. I hope you understand that I'm not trying to blame you here. I think it was already too late to get the skin off, and the stuck shed thing just happens sometimes even if you do everything right. I've lost a few this way too. Sometimes it just goes unnoticed until it's too late. Totally understandable.

[guidofatherof5]

I must disagree with you on one thing Richard, not trying to get it off. A high humidity shed box for 30-40 minutes can work wonders. If not, hit the faucet and give it a go.
Give the snake a fighting chance, any chance.

[ConcinusMan]

If we're talking 4-5 weeks past shedding time I doubt it will work but not doing anything at all and taking a "wait and see" approach with no sense of urgency will certainly fail.

[SnakeDoctor]

Well I see we are in a house of glass and most are throwing stones… It seems many of you have had experience in this area of retained sheds, in fact so much so that some you know procedure(s) to deal with this issue. Interesting...
On with the UPDATE if I may…
Last night I focused mainly on her upper 2/3rd of her body starting off with a warm water soak and then proceeded to rub in a shed direction with a new emery pad that I first worked with my hands to make pliable for use. This took off all retained shed on the dorsal or costal and vertebral scales. For the bottom ventral or gastrosteges scales I had to remove one by one. I did one other procedure then let her rest then came back with a light coating of Mac Oil. This morning I checked in on her and she gave me a good little love nip and her color is looking better.

[guidofatherof5]

Glad to hear the shed is coming off.

Not sure what's interesting about knowing how to deal with a retained shed. "Interesting..." almost seems like you want to throw some stones of your own with that comment.
Any stone throwing done here was out of concern for the animal.;)

[BLUESIRTALIS]

So glad to hear the shed is coming off! I hope she turns around because she is a beautiful girl! I also hope you can breed her if she gets back to health and try to produce some more of these awesome looking snakes. I would hate to see such an awesome looking morph go to waste. Good luck with her and i hope she continues to thrive for you.

[SnakeDoctor]

Glad to hear the shed is coming off.

Not sure what's interesting about knowing how to deal with a retained shed. "Interesting..." almost seems like you want to throw some stones of your own with that comment.
Any stone throwing done here was out of concern for the animal.;)

Don't get offended now... I only picked up your stones and throw them back ;)

[guidofatherof5]

I'm done.:)

[chris-uk]

Well I see we are in a house of glass and most are throwing stones… It seems many of you have had experience in this area of retained sheds, in fact so much so that some you know procedure(s) to deal with this issue. Interesting...

If you keep enough snakes for long enough you'll see a retained shed, knowing how to recognise it and deal with it with the urgency it deserves is a bad thing? Your vague insinuation is that anyone who has dealt with a retained shed is somehow doing something wrong, or have I misread between the lines? I was unlucky that one of my first garters was a baby with several problems and wouldn't eat and retained a shed. More interesting is that someone with 30 years experience keeping snakes didn't recognise a retained shed or know how to treat it, and then didn't heed the advice he was given. Did you, with all your experience, really think that feeding her was more important than dealing with the retained shed?


On with the UPDATE if I may…
Last night I focused mainly on her upper 2/3rd of her body starting off with a warm water soak and then proceeded to rub in a shed direction with a new emery pad that I first worked with my hands to make pliable for use.

So you sanded the retained shed off? Are you sure you haven't damaged the skin underneath? An emery board is not a method I'd be keen to try, but if the shed had been retained for a month you may not have been successful with more gentle approaches. It seems to me that you asked for advice, but you already had your own method that you planned to use.

Anyway, in addition to throwing stones, the purpose of my reply is to highlight to anyone reading this thread looking for advice on a retained shed... this is not a textbook way to save your snake.

[Stefan-A]

Well I see we are in a house of glass and most are throwing stones… It seems many of you have had experience in this area of retained sheds, in fact so much so that some you know procedure(s) to deal with this issue. Interesting...
Sure thing, doc. That's the only reason why I have a procedure. Because my snakes get month-old retained sheds every other day.

[Invisible Snake]

It is ironic that someone who calls himself "SnakeDoctor" doesn't know that a retained shed can be deadly and would come on here asking for help lol

[kimbosaur]

Well I see we are in a house of glass and most are throwing stones… It seems many of you have had experience in this area of retained sheds, in fact so much so that some you know procedure(s) to deal with this issue. Interesting...
On with the UPDATE if I may…
Last night I focused mainly on her upper 2/3rd of her body starting off with a warm water soak and then proceeded to rub in a shed direction with a new emery pad that I first worked with my hands to make pliable for use. This took off all retained shed on the dorsal or costal and vertebral scales. For the bottom ventral or gastrosteges scales I had to remove one by one. I did one other procedure then let her rest then came back with a light coating of Mac Oil. This morning I checked in on her and she gave me a good little love nip and her color is looking better.

I'm glad to hear the snake is doing better, but I'm not sure why you're getting so defensive. Everybody was only offering advice that you asked for with the well-being of your snake in mind. Many have shared their personal experiences of what works best to solve the problem, as well as their personal experiences with what happens if the situation is not immediately dealt with. You chose to disregard the advice for whatever reason. If you go somewhere looking for advice, find out that most or all view your situation as urgent, receive personal feedback about how to handle the problem, ignore everybody and let the problem drag on, then come back and boast about how much more experience you have than everybody else and how your way is better, what did you expect would happen?

[ConcinusMan]

It seems many of you have had experience in this area of retained sheds, in fact so much so that some you know procedure(s) to deal with this issue. Interesting...

Well of course! If you keep a lot of snakes and over many years, you're bound to run into this problem sooner or later. There's basically only two kinds of snake keepers. Ones that have dealt with it, and those that are going to face it soon enough.


Any stone throwing done here was out of concern for the animal.

Exactly. Don't take it personally. When you ask for advice here, you're going to get it even if it's not what you wanted to hear. And of course, individual experiences and opinions will vary.

This sounds like great news. Glad the snake is out of immediate danger. Updated post-shed pics would be nice.

[Ruth]

I just wanted to say I've been following this thread and am very greatfull for it and with you asking for advice. I haven't had any shedding problems but as ConcinnusMan says most of us will face something similar and it's nice to have this information logged in my mind for if it should happen to any snakes in my care. Though I hope I'm the exception and this never happens to any of my snakes, but then we all hope that.

[ConcinusMan]

If I were you I would stay vigilant and next time she goes opaque, then clears up, make darn sure she sheds. She might have trouble again and like I said before if you wait too long, you might not be so lucky next time. Some snakes seem to go through a phase where they have troubled sheds, then eventually get over it so definitely be watching for it next time. They should shed within a week of the eyes clearing up again.

[scott5017]

Man this thread should come with popcorn!

[d_virginiana]

... Saying that someone with lots of snake experience is a poor keeper because they know how to deal with retained shed is kind of like saying someone is a poor daycare provider for knowing what to do when a kid has the chicken pox :cool:


I just wanted to say I've been following this thread and am very greatfull for it and with you asking for advice. I haven't had any shedding problems but as ConcinnusMan says most of us will face something similar and it's nice to have this information logged in my mind for if it should happen to any snakes in my care. Though I hope I'm the exception and this never happens to any of my snakes, but then we all hope that.

Watching any potential 'trouble' snakes like crazy is good prevention for retained shed. I've had several instances, usually in snakes recovering from mouth infections (I think the light scarring may make it difficult for them to get started shedding?) that could have very easily gone from a difficult shed to a retained shed if I hadn't been able to deal with it immediately. I've also started running a humidifier in their room when someone goes blue. Doesn't get the humidity too high, but I've noticed the sheds seem to go better for everyone when I do.
There's a good thread on here somewhere with retained shed/eyecap images that is pretty helpful for deciding when you need to take action for a retained shed.

[BUSHSNAKE]

ANYTIME your using a heat source of any kind...specially during the winter months, you have to replace the moisture in the air that you lose.

[Ruth]

ANYTIME your using a heat source of any kind...specially during the winter months, you have to replace the moisture in the air that you lose.

I'm not sure if this advice is directed at me after my post. I have moisture boxes in with all my corns and my garter has a variation whereby I use a small box with lid which has a little under 1cm of water in it and an access hole in the side. In the box is also a piece of terracotta pot the pot is thick enough to stand proud and remain dry. I look at it that the snakes are able to choose which micro climate they wish to be in. She will spend a reasonable amount of time sat on the terracotta but no where near as much time as the corns spend in their moisture boxes. I also don't use spagnam (sp) moss but I use wool batting (stuffing used in quilts) in the boxes. The wool is organic and chemical free and wool has antibacterial qualities. I clean the wool weekly using very hot water. This has worked for me though I don't know anyone else that does it this way.

[d_virginiana]

ANYTIME your using a heat source of any kind...specially during the winter months, you have to replace the moisture in the air that you lose.

I monitor the humidity. Unless it drops below freezing here in NC (which it has only done for a few days out of the year) the humidity stays fine in their room. There's a hygrotherm attached to my frog's tank that keeps the surrounding area more humid than it would otherwise be.
The humidifier isn't normally necessary. But I like doing it when someone's getting ready to shed.

[chris-uk]

We have a tumble dryer in the snake room, and a 5 month-old who generates a lot of washing. If the humidity is fine we vent the dryer outside, if humidity needs a boost we vent into the room. May as well get some benefits from the extra laundry. :)

[ConcinusMan]

ANYTIME your using a heat source of any kind...specially during the winter months, you have to replace the moisture in the air that you lose.

True but I don't really have that problem in the Northwest. Humidity in the winter time is almost always very high. But I run an air conditioner in the summer and if the air is already dry the air conditioner makes it that much worse since it acts as a dehumidifier too. Now, back in the Mojave desert, I run a swamp cooler instead. This cools and humidifies. It's so good at humidifying that I usually have to run it with some windows open or it gets too humid in the house.

[BUSHSNAKE]

I'm not sure if this advice is directed at me after my post. I have moisture boxes in with all my corns and my garter has a variation whereby I use a small box with lid which has a little under 1cm of water in it and an access hole in the side. In the box is also a piece of terracotta pot the pot is thick enough to stand proud and remain dry. I look at it that the snakes are able to choose which micro climate they wish to be in. She will spend a reasonable amount of time sat on the terracotta but no where near as much time as the corns spend in their moisture boxes. I also don't use spagnam (sp) moss but I use wool batting (stuffing used in quilts) in the boxes. The wool is organic and chemical free and wool has antibacterial qualities. I clean the wool weekly using very hot water. This has worked for me though I don't know anyone else that does it this way.
no it wasnt

[Ruth]

Thanks I didn't know whether you thought I was totally clueless :)

I'm up for any advice though even if it seems obvious because I like to know I'm doing what I can and we all miss things, even things that should be obvious.

[snakeman]

I soak my garters once a week now along with my indigos.

[ConcinusMan]

My girlfriend soaks hers in Woolite with like colors. She keeps indigos separate or they'll bleed color onto her garters.

I recommend you use a fabric softener so your garters don't chaff when you wear them Tom. :p

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Anybody have an update on this snake?

[guidofatherof5]

He was last on 2/13/13

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I really hope this beautiful snake pulled through!

[guidofatherof5]

Indeed.

[Selkielass]

Whoah.
I Love the idea if using wool as a bedding material with anad as a handspinner with boxes and boxes of fleece around the house im kind of ashamed I never thought of it before!!!
I've got a large tote full of clean waste Lincoln and mohair left over from combing and carding fleeces.
I'm not going to spin it, and I've no plans to felt ir stuff pillows with it, so I think im going to try some as snake bedding before it gets composted.