Incompetent vet

[scott5017]

So one of my female san fran's had a blockage just above her vent area for which i tried gently manipulating the area and giving her a warm bath which didnt work so i figured the vet would be able to help. Took her in monday night and the vet tried to manipulate the snakes body to force the blockage out which didnt work so she suggested regular bathing / mineral oil, ok fine ill try that.

I get the snake home and notice the back 1/3 of her body is limp and lifeless and im pretty sure the vet broke her spine, she didnt make it through the night. Im just trying to deal with my anger and upset over this she was a wonderful / beautiful animal who didnt deserve to die like that, not to mention the work / money i put in to get her into the country in the first place, sigh.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t170/alwayssaydie/2012-05-05205229.jpg

[Invisible Snake]

I'm so sorry for your loss :(

[ravgez]

sorry to hear that she passed :/

[guidofatherof5]

What a shame. Sorry for your loss.

[Light of Dae]

What vet did she go to???

[Spankenstyne]

Sorry to hear of your loss. I had been excited for you being able to get them here in the first place.

Have you contacted the vet? I know they won't do anything about it but you should at the very least make sure they know what happened. Perhaps they'll comp a necropsy and at least confirm that the blockage was a blockage and not something else. I've seen a few people lately up here lose garters after showing some strange looking extreme swelling right above the vent, I wonder if there's a pathogen or something else going on.

[dsmdavid22]

So one of my female san fran's had a blockage just above her vent area for which i tried gently manipulating the area and giving her a warm bath which didnt work so i figured the vet would be able to help. Took her in monday night and the vet tried to manipulate the snakes body to force the blockage out which didnt work so she suggested regular bathing / mineral oil, ok fine ill try that.

I get the snake home and notice the back 1/3 of her body is limp and lifeless and im pretty sure the vet broke her spine, she didnt make it through the night. Im just trying to deal with my anger and upset over this she was a wonderful / beautiful animal who didnt deserve to die like that, not to mention the work / money i put in to get her into the country in the first place, sigh.

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t170/alwayssaydie/2012-05-05205229.jpg
I am so sorry , I recently lost my male checkered,just after leaving him in at the shop I buy her food at,for a week.2 days after bringing him home,he died in my arms.Only time can heal.From a fellow Canuck. Sincerely,me d

[scott5017]

Sorry to hear of your loss. I had been excited for you being able to get them here in the first place.

Have you contacted the vet? I know they won't do anything about it but you should at the very least make sure they know what happened. Perhaps they'll comp a necropsy and at least confirm that the blockage was a blockage and not something else. I've seen a few people lately up here lose garters after showing some strange looking extreme swelling right above the vent, I wonder if there's a pathogen or something else going on.

I have refrained from contacting the vet as there is no real way to confirm that they were indeed the cause of the animals death without it costing me more money, that and im not sure i would be able to control myself from saying the things i really want to. With the blockage the animal was not losing any weight and was active as normal, after the vet visit she dies that night, i know correlation is not causation but in this instance she wasnt immobile / limp before the visit and was afterwards.

I do still have a 1.1 san fran pair left but this was my favorite snake, she was super friendly and would be so gentle when eating you could hand feed her.

Also not sure i can name the vet in violation of the TOS?

[Greg'sGarters]

I am sorry for the loss of a truly beautiful snake. My condolences. It kills me to hear stories like that, where the people who are supposed to help, only make things worse. :(

[ProXimuS]

Very sorry to hear about this:(

[d_virginiana]

So sorry for your loss :( Unless I had to bring future animals to that particular vet I'd at least call and make sure they know what happened if you're 100% sure they broke the spine.
You don't have to be an expert on reptiles to realize when something like that happens...

[Spankenstyne]

I have refrained from contacting the vet as there is no real way to confirm that they were indeed the cause of the animals death without it costing me more money, that and im not sure i would be able to control myself from saying the things i really want to. With the blockage the animal was not losing any weight and was active as normal, after the vet visit she dies that night, i know correlation is not causation but in this instance she wasnt immobile / limp before the visit and was afterwards.

I do still have a 1.1 san fran pair left but this was my favorite snake, she was super friendly and would be so gentle when eating you could hand feed her.

Also not sure i can name the vet in violation of the TOS?

I understand completely, and to be honest would probably be of the same mindset. There is a chance that it was something like perhaps a cyst on the spine or something dislodged from the palpation, or....

That said I wasn't there and there's something to be said for the most likely direct correlation between the visit and what you witnessed afterward. Terrible to hear that you've gone through this at any rate.

[thamneil]

Regardless of who is at fault, I'll have to say that part of me has died inside. I can feel your pain right now. I myself am working on bringing a group of tetra's into the country. I can imagine what it must feel like. To be on top of the world, and then lose that. While it isn't the same, you are fortunate enough to be left with a pair of these wonderful snakes. Focus your time and energy on those, and hopefully you will be rewarded.

[EKS56]

Sorry to hear that. There are some human doctors out there that aren't much better.

[Stefan-A]

Also not sure i can name the vet in violation of the TOS?
Not sure, either. I wouldn't. Anyone who wants to know can PM you and ask.
Even vets make mistakes, though. Is this a vet who has specialized in reptiles?


Sorry to hear it, by the way.

[chris-uk]

Sorry to hear that you've lost one of your San Frans. Every loss is hard but this snake in these circumstances is particularly harsh.

I would still advise contacting the vet. If they did indeed break her spine there's at least a training issue that should be addressed. If I was the vet I'd be eager to necropsy her to determine whether I had caused her death.

[kueluck]

So sad to read about this. But as Chris said, I would take her back to the Vet office and talk to them about it.

[gregmonsta]

Sorry for your loss. I would definitely speak to the vet. This can happen when a snake is restrained and struggles against the pressure though. I would only apportion partial blame here. It can be difficult, especially with fast/nervous species of snake.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I am so sorry for your loss. I think it's possible that the vet could have broke her spine, but as tough as snakes are i would think it would be hard to do by trying to massage a blockage out. I would think you would have to twist the spine pretty hard or hit it with some type of object to break it. I have heard of severe blockages causing paralysis in reptiles. Either way if it was the vet or the blockage that caused death i hate you had to lose such a lovely snake.

[guidofatherof5]

Any chance we can get a belly photo on this? if you have one. Sorry for your loss.

[kimbosaur]

I would also contact the vet if there was an obvious difference in the snake before and after the visit. Obviously something happened during the visit, whether that be a broken spine or something else. It seems ridiculous that they would charge you (probably a crazy amount) to possibly damage your snake. I understand mistakes and accidents happen, but like Chris said, as a professional, they should at least try and help you figure out what went wrong.

It's sad but I think the majority of vets care more about emptying your pockets than about acting like the professionals they should be, or even about the well-being of your pets.

[ConcinusMan]

It's quite likely that the snake would have died anyway if he didn't try something so what do you do? Try something that might work, or do nothing and let it die? Sounds to me like the vet did exactly what he should have done, and that is, try to get the blockage dislodged. I think all that happened here is that trying that aggravated an internal injury/condition that was already there. You say you think he broke his spine but I doubt it.

Calling the vet incompetent because it didn't work (and even may have caused her to die sooner) isn't fair. Doctors lose patients. Doesn't mean it was due to incompetence. I think the vet did what any vet would do, and quite often, it works.

[scott5017]

It's quite likely that the snake would have died anyway if he didn't try something so what do you do? Try something that might work, or do nothing and let it die? Sounds to me like the vet did exactly what he should have done, and that is, try to get the blockage dislodged. I think all that happened here is that trying that aggravated an internal injury/condition that was already there. You say you think he broke his spine but I doubt it.

Calling the vet incompetent because it didn't work (and even may have caused her to die sooner) isn't fair. Doctors lose patients. Doesn't mean it was due to incompetence. I think the vet did what any vet would do, and quite often, it works.

Im not sure if you could be more wrong.

I massaged the snake just fine and was very careful and caused no injury, the snake was healthy and moving before the exam, afterwards immobile and limp from her lower third body then died THAT night.She was not in immediate danger, she wasnt losing weight and we hadnt even tried mineral oil yet.

While i cannot 100% confirm exactly what happend, from the evidence i have and from my vast experience i know what happened here.Im not stupid, i know the vet didnt do it on purpose but she did make a mistake and she did kill my snake and i have a right to be frustrated about it especially as i have no way of recouping my losses here.

[d_virginiana]

I refuse to take my reptiles to vets that don't specialize in herps unless it's a life or death situation for exactly this reason... Luckily, my hometown vet is a very honest man who actually told me up front that he would do what he could but that he had virtually no reptile-specific knowledge before prescribing anything. Didn't even charge me for the office visit, only meds, since the animal I brought in was a w/c rescue at the time.

If the vet indeed broke the spine then that is incompetence. If not, they should still know about what happened, but I agree with the previous posts that something less obvious (like a cyst rupturing) could have caused the death as well. I really am sorry for your loss, but you have to expect less than expert care when you take a reptile to a general vet. It's a bit like me going to a vet rather than a doctor. There are similarities, and they might be able to help, but that's not what they studied.

[scott5017]

Oh also forgot to mention, this wasnt just a random vet this was the only vet i know of in my area that deals with reptiles.

There is no such thing as a reptile vet, just vets with more experience than others.

[d_virginiana]

There is no such thing as a reptile vet, just vets with more experience than others.

Um... There are definitely vets who specialize in reptiles and other exotics. It's a different area of study and not the same thing as a general vet who will agree to see exotics and has seen them before. Just because you don't have a reptile specialist in your area doesn't mean there is no such thing. If the vet doesn't advertise as an exotics specialist, then they are still just a general vet with no specific training.

This is an example of a vet where I currently live that is SOLELY an exotics vet.
Inverts | Avian and Exotic Animal Care, Raleigh, NC (http://avianandexotic.com/invertebrates)

[scott5017]

I dont disagree, there are vets who specialize in reptiles, but only through experience there is no schooling for it.

[d_virginiana]

I dont disagree, there are vets who specialize in reptiles, but only through experience there is no schooling for it.

Once again; not common, but it exists.

I actually go to a university that offers national courses and seminars in exotic animal behavior and medicine from its veterinary campus. I believe that a lot of this may be fairly recent, but it is an educational specialty that a vet can be professionally trained in.
Do you think that reptile/amphibian-specialized endoscopy, anasthetic, and MRI machines and procedures were really developed solely from hands on experience?

Sorry, it's just that I actually go to a place that offers schooling for exotics. Granted, it is one of very few.

[scott5017]

One of very few? That is an understatement, it might even be the only place to offer such a thing. And it most certainly is recent, general vet training for reptiles and exotics is a few weeks at best, hopefully though in years to come as the hobby expands there will be better training and better facilities to cater for our pets, but right now it stinks.

[d_virginiana]

One of very few? That is an understatement, it might even be the only place to offer such a thing. And it most certainly is recent, general vet training for reptiles and exotics is a few weeks at best, hopefully though in years to come as the hobby expands there will be better training and better facilities to cater for our pets, but right now it stinks.

I know there aren't many, but never thought about it being the only one since I grew up nearby. Haven't done a lot of research on where others are though. I live five minutes from the state's only reptile-specialty clinic, as well as a reptile-equipped vet school, so I don't have to do a lot of looking around :rolleyes:
The guy that heads up the exotics-only practice that I posted a link to earlier is one of the educators at the vet school here. I believe that he personally got a lot of those classes started on the veterinary campus.
They also work very closely with reptile rescues in the area, so we actually have several more reptile-knowledgeable facilities that can get access to specialized treatment, and many of the volunteers are reptile owners and vet or pre-vet students at the university.


About general vets though... I think the worst thing is when they aren't willing to admit they don't know what they're doing with herps. They can be really helpful if the owner goes in pretty much knowing what's wrong, or if the owner doesn't feel pressured into accepting treatment for the animal, but they can do a lot of damage if they aren't up front about their experience working with reptiles.

[chris-uk]

Im not sure if you could be more wrong.

I massaged the snake just fine and was very careful and caused no injury, the snake was healthy and moving before the exam, afterwards immobile and limp from her lower third body then died THAT night.She was not in immediate danger, she wasnt losing weight and we hadnt even tried mineral oil yet.

While i cannot 100% confirm exactly what happend, from the evidence i have and from my vast experience i know what happened here.Im not stupid, i know the vet didnt do it on purpose but she did make a mistake and she did kill my snake and i have a right to be frustrated about it especially as i have no way of recouping my losses here.

Have you spoken to the vet since the fateful visit? If you haven't how do you know that they wouldn't have been willing to help find the cause of death? And if they did indeed break the poor girl's spine, don't vets in Canada have liability insurance?
I appreciate your frustration, and I'd be angry speaking to a vet if they'd killed my tetra, but I would most certainly have spoken to the vet as soon as I discovered my dead snake.
If this is the only vet that you have access to for treating your snakes I'd consider it to be important to raise this death with them. Firstly from an educational standpoint, but also I would want to try to regain some trust in the vet. If on speaking to the vet I found them disinterested and unhelpful, then they wouldn't get any business from me again. Everyone makes mistakes, and should be given the opportunity to make amends for them.

[ConcinusMan]

I dont disagree, there are vets who specialize in reptiles, but only through experience there is no schooling for it.

There is schooling for it at many university zoology depts but it's not specifically required to become a vet. It's rather ironic that a zoologist is going to know more about reptile medicine than your local vet, yet we take our snakes to the latter since a zoologist isn't in the business of treating people's pets.


And if they did indeed break the poor girl's spine, don't vets in Canada have liability insurance?

And remember this is still speculation. I've seen plenty of broken backs and I've never seen it cause immediate death and I've seen plenty of them survive just fine and heal after having their backs and many ribs broken. And I'm talking obviously broken to the point of kinking. They didn't just suddenly drop dead. I just find it hard to believe that the vet used that much force, as to break the spine and even if he did, that alone shouldn't cause such rapid death. I think it's more likely that there was internal injury (pre-existing to some degree) made worse by the vet. Did the vet do x-rays on the area? I mean, did he confirm that the lump was indeed a blockage? If it was instead an infection, cyst, etc., then aggravating it could cause internal bleeding or release of toxins from the infection. Now that would cause rapid death. Going limp from that point down doesn't have to mean the snake was paralyzed or mean that it's back was broken. Like I said, a broken back alone doesn't usually cause rapid death and they can even go on to live with it.

Just trying to offer other plausible explanations because it's only natural to want to blame the vet or someone even if he only did what any vet would do. It's not fair to call them incompetent when you don't know the cause of death. You wouldn't call a cancer specialist incompetent just because they couldn't cure someone's cancer. I think it's important to know for sure if they did something incompetent before calling them that and all you really know for sure at this point is that the snake died after seeing the vet. Unless you immediately took it to another place for a necropsy to confirm the cause of death, I'm afraid there's nothing you can do. You could blame the vet here, but there's no real proof to confirm it.

[d_virginiana]

I would think that in the case of a broken spine, it'd be something you'd notice immediately, or possibly even hear. It just doesn't seem that the snake would have no noticeable behavior differences when it was handed back to you at the office (or put back in its container or whatever) and then only show those things once it got home...

This is another thing I've noticed about even some of the most competent general vets when it comes to reptiles... They will listen to the keeper unless the keeper is making no sense. When I brought my turtle in saying that it had an eye infection and I needed a topical opthalmic antibiotic, my vet listened to me rather than run a battery of tests without knowing how the stress would effect the animal, or what the results would be for an animal they weren't designed for. Luckily, I was right and Turtle is happy and healthy now. If I had been mistaken, and the eye problem was due to an injury, a fungus, or anything else really, then the antibiotics wouldn't have helped, and could have even caused more harm than good.

Telling the vet would be good, just so they know in the future, but unless the spine was actually broken it really just boils down to the fact that you asked someone who was not educated in reptiles to perform medical treatment on your reptile. It sucks that that is often the only option for reptile keepers, but it's the truth.

[scott5017]

I think it's important to know for sure if they did something incompetent before calling them that and all you really know for sure at this point is that the snake died after seeing the vet. Unless you immediately took it to another place for a necropsy to confirm the cause of death, I'm afraid there's nothing you can do. You could blame the vet here, but there's no real proof to confirm it.

I have been dealing with reptiles and specifically snakes for the better part of 20 years and i know what a spinal injury looks and feels like. Yes i understand the spine being broken is not always fatal except if you include crushed ribs and internal bleeding which is the most likely of causes.

Performing a necropsy would only cause me to lose more money and gain nothing that i didnt already know without recouping anything.

I also wonder,without knowing any of my husbandry / background history / competence / pictures or any first hand evidence you can be so sure that im wrong? Seems very arrogant to me.

I didnt come here for debate or argument only to share my frustrations and upset over losing such an animal with people who appreciate these wonderful creatures. Once the animal had died there was nothing that could be done.

[d_virginiana]

I also wonder,without knowing any of my husbandry / background history / competence / pictures or any first hand evidence you can be so sure that im wrong? Seems very arrogant to me.



Your husbandry, competence in care, and background history have nothing to do with whether or not the vet broke the spine. I've been keeping reptiles for about 15 years, as well as doing multiple species rehabs/rescues and happen to have never seen a spinal injury anywhere above the vent. I like to think my husbandry and knowledge of reptiles is pretty good, but unless the spine was kinked, I'm not 100% sure I could correctly identify a spinal injury as opposed to a cyst or infection in the spinal area.

Since you gave us no pictures of the injury, and did not perform a necropsy or have one performed, these are all valid questions. No one is saying you did anything wrong and no one is saying that your diagnosis is correct or incorrect. Based only on the information you've given here, people (many of them with just as much if not more experience with these snakes) are going to offer other plausible suggestions for what may have gone wrong.
Accusing a vet (or anyone) of negligence of that caliber is a pretty heavy accusation. Most people would ask for proof, not just an external examination, before they automatically agreed that that's the reason for the snake's death.


I really am sorry for your loss though, especially losing such an important snake so suddenly.

[chris-uk]

Once the animal had died there was nothing that could be done.

Other than informing the vet of the mistake. Even if you gained no recompense it may prevent the vet from making the same mistake again.