Mouth infection or something ?? [Archive]

RedSidedSPR

01-26-2013, 07:50 PM

Just noticed this..been busy the last week and don't actually know how long it's been there, but it was not this obvious until today. Something's obviously wrong but how bad is it and what do I need to do

he ate normally the last 3 or 4 feedings including yesterday and appears normal aside from his face

http://i.imgur.com/ABLfVO1.jpg

RedSidedSPR

01-26-2013, 07:51 PM

It's on both sides of his face btw, left is worse.

He is in shed if that makes a difference somehow

d_virginiana

01-26-2013, 07:59 PM

Looks like a mouth infection. Can you get some shots of the underside of the mouth? Also, have you noticed any discharge from the mouth, or any discoloration of the swollen tissue?
My flame (from the same litter as yours) as well as my baby albino have both had moth infections that at least on the surface look very similar to this and come through it.

You can use either betadine or hibiclens diluted in water to swab the area. I find that betadine is a bit harsher, but seems to do a slightly better job at 'nuking' the problem if I use it for a few days, and then hibiclens is milder and works as a good follow up; because you don't want to stop treating a mouth infection too early and have it all come back.
Just get a Q-tip soaked with whatever you're disinfecting with and make sure to get way up under the lip area. If you put your thumb on the snake's lower jaw to hold the head still and then flip the snake over, it seems to disorient them a little and they are less likely to be squirmy while you treat them.
Just make sure to go with the grain of the teeth so that fibers from the Q-tip don't get caught in there.

You may want to put him on newspaper until this is cleared up too. I've found that any other substrate tends to get stuck on the exposed areas of their lips and make the problem take longer to heal up.

guidofatherof5

01-26-2013, 08:07 PM

It appears there is an infection and the fact he's in shed makes it look worse.
Any chance you can post a couple photos of the under side of the upper lip area?
This problem will probably look better after the shed. Make sure it's a complete shed in that area.
I and some other members use Hibiclens (diluted) to treat this type of thing.

RedSidedSPR

01-26-2013, 08:16 PM

I'll pick up the betadine tommorow, and/or hibiclen. I don't know what hibiclen is or where to find it but ill try to

how often would I apply it

http://i.imgur.com/BK6VU7S.jpg

guidofatherof5

01-26-2013, 09:04 PM

Hibiclens can be bought at any drug store. Got mine at the Walmart pharmacy.
I will tell you how my Vet. treated this kind in problem.
He took a very small sterile needle and poked the lip in the area of the infection causing it to bleed. This way the blood flowing threw the infected area would force much if the infection out. It will bleed some but that is just part of what has to be done.
I have also learned something about this type of infection. In the photo I posted the arrow is pointing to an area on the lip that is probably covered with a clear scab. Using a sterile needle you should be able to remove it causing the area to bleed. This will also open an area for the Hibiclens to get in.
I treat lip infection twice a day with a 40-60 mix of Hibiclens and water. I use a Q-tip to apply the Hibiclens.
These things usually start looking better after a few days. After a week I only apply it once a day if it looks like it is getting better.
I am not a Vet. and only make this as a suggestion.

http://www.hibiclens.com/
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//743/mouth_infection_jesse.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//743/2013-01-26_201752.png

RedSidedSPR

01-26-2013, 09:17 PM

Is the needle/bleeding necessary for every application or just the first time?

Would it still work without the bleeding, like Lora did, as I don't have any needles I know of, or is it that much better to use a needle, in which case ill try to get a small enough needle.

Thanks for the replies

guidofatherof5

01-26-2013, 09:26 PM

The bleeding is only done once.
I feel the bleeding help get the medicine in much faster. Any sewing needle will work. Dip in in some rubbing alcohol and let it dry before using it.
It's your call on using a needle or not but I would still apply the Hibiclens.

d_virginiana

01-26-2013, 09:34 PM

I stopped before I saw any bleeding because I saw a piece of what I thought was gum tissue come off the inside of his mouth. This was probably the scab tissue Steve is talking about, and it got better soon afterward. Also, my hands shake pretty badly, so I didn't want to risk harming him. Yours is much bigger so it shouldn't be as hard to do the procedure right :)

Even after you stop actually treating the infection, it's a good idea to keep an eye on the mouth and swab it out with just water every few days. Sithis' mouth still doesn't have a great seal on it and little bits of dust and junk get stuck in it all the time. Once they've had a mouth infection they're more prone to them in the future, so it's good to keep an eye on it for a while.

guidofatherof5

01-26-2013, 09:45 PM

Even after you stop actually treating the infection, it's a good idea to keep an eye on the mouth and swab it out with just water every few days. Sithis' mouth still doesn't have a great seal on it and little bits of dust and junk get stuck in it all the time. Once they've had a mouth infection they're more prone to them in the future, so it's good to keep an eye on it for a while.

The bad seal may be caused by the scar tissue at the infection site. Our girl Lucky still has a bump in her lip and she was treated 4 years ago.

d_virginiana

01-26-2013, 09:58 PM

You can still tell Harley's mouth isn't 100% right, and it's been over a year. Substrate getting stuck on it was a big issue until I put her on newspaper. She likes it just as well since I put a lot of craft store vines on top of it.

RedSidedSPR

01-26-2013, 10:15 PM

I'll use a needle. Although my hands shake a lot too. That was actually one of my biggest reasons, but I'll try to

I'll monitor him and keep you updated. Thanks a lot for the help

d_virginiana

01-26-2013, 10:20 PM

Can you go by CVS and buy a box of insulin needles? They're sterile until you break a seal and IMO they seem to have a finer point. More likely to get the blood flowing with less tissue damage than other kinds of needles. Plus, they're a good 'medicine cabinet' sort of thing to have around.

RedSidedSPR

01-27-2013, 09:23 AM

CrazyHedgehog

01-27-2013, 10:23 AM

I have been lucky enough never to get a snake mouth infection, (runs off to touch some wood, just in case) but out of interest, what causes it?

guidofatherof5

01-27-2013, 12:25 PM

Could be from a substrate sliver. Maybe an opportunistic bacteria or virus.
Most of the time I think it's from food bites from another snake.

RedSidedSPR

01-27-2013, 09:24 PM

Yeah I'm assuming its from a bite during or after the last feeding.

He's a spaz during feeding and often starts the fights, resulting in a lot of a mouth to mouth chaos. He probably brought him on himself shortly after the feeding as I left almost immediately afterwards, something I try not to do, for the sole reason of this particular snake, who tends to attack anything that smells like food be it my hand or a snake, with or without actual food.

d_virginiana

01-28-2013, 12:12 AM

My albino's mouth infection was caused by a food fight... with his tank. Yes.
He goes nuts around food like that too, and somehow a piece of food landed on the silicon border in the tank, and he just latched on. Took about five minutes for him to get off. A day or two later was when I first noticed his mouth puffing up :rolleyes:

ConcinusMan

01-28-2013, 03:10 AM

I agree. Most of the time it's caused by food fights. I've never had the problem otherwise. So, it's really important to avoid the fights. This mouth condition is hard treat but easy to prevent.

RedSidedSPR

01-28-2013, 09:52 AM

I'm always really careful to prevent fighting.

Basically one of my tanks cracked, and I had 5 adult snakes in a 20 gallon and made the mistake of feeding them all in the same cage. Was short on time and just wanted to give them all a pinky before leaving for a few days.

Didnt see a fight but I'm sure it happened.

Greg'sGarters

01-28-2013, 07:14 PM

First things first. That is a BEAUTIFUL snake! Now, I think that that is an infection I think that what Steve said is the right thing to do. If you are close enough friends with your vet, see if he can take a look at it for free. It couldn't hurt.

d_virginiana

01-28-2013, 07:26 PM

If you do end up talking to a vet, just be wary. If they aren't specifically a herp vet the knee-jerk reaction of many general animal vets is to prescribe antibiotics for that sort of thing. With my reptiles I always try to avoid that until they are absolutely necessary because of the risks involved, especially with the smaller ones.

guidofatherof5

01-28-2013, 07:49 PM

Agreed. If an antibiotic is recommend I would go with a oral rather then a injectable. I know Baytril can cause problems at the injection site. I believe Chris-uk can attest to that.

RedSidedSPR

01-29-2013, 12:45 PM

I have no herp vets around, and no normal vets that I trust.

I already did the needle, and applied the hibiclens. Went fine far as I can tell

The swelling is significantly smaller, but that might have been because he just shed. However the shed did not come off all the way. In fact the only thing I got off was the top half of the head part. His entire body and lower jaw still hasn't come off. And he isn't exactly trying

RedSidedSPR

01-29-2013, 12:47 PM

I could easily pull/assist it off but I dont know how the shed around the mouth is supposed to go and dont want to do anything wrong.

Is the inside of the mouth involved? Or is just around the outside of his mouth.

guidofatherof5

01-29-2013, 12:53 PM

I would use a warm shed box first to see if the snake will take care of business before you get involved.

RedSidedSPR

01-29-2013, 03:19 PM

I would too. Which is why he's been in one for three hours... He wont do anything.

RedSidedSPR

01-29-2013, 05:37 PM

Took 6 and a half hours but he got it off

guidofatherof5

01-29-2013, 05:40 PM

Glad you got it off. Do the lips look better? They should.

RedSidedSPR

01-29-2013, 09:04 PM

Glad you got it off. Do the lips look better? They should.

Significantly

http://i.imgur.com/XPdrvFS.jpg

BLUESIRTALIS

01-30-2013, 07:13 AM

That looks a lot better! I think as long as you keep him seperate and keep his mouth clean it should heal up just fine. I would continue to keep him on paper towels until it clears up to keep bedding from getting stuck in his mouth.

RedSidedSPR

01-30-2013, 09:25 AM

Thanks I'll keep him where he is.

Should I be feeding him or not?

BLUESIRTALIS

01-30-2013, 09:37 AM

Thanks I'll keep him where he is.

Should I be feeding him or not?

I think it would be ok as long as you clean it after he eats.

ConcinusMan

01-30-2013, 11:26 PM

Should I be feeding him or not?

Not unless you want him to survive. I find they don't do very well if you don't feed them. :rolleyes:

d_virginiana

01-31-2013, 02:29 AM

Especially clean it after worms. If any of the grit from inside them sticks to the exposed part it can start the whole infection back up again.

RedSidedSPR

01-31-2013, 07:17 PM

Just fed and cleaned him

This is what I was afraid of and why I asked.

http://i.imgur.com/CcJXQ4D.jpg

My attention was on the other 6 snakes eating during most of his meal, so I have no idea how that happend.

For the record, when using the needle, if anything I was overly cautious. There was very little bleeding. It's not like it's some gaping wound that should ever even bleed again

Blood could be from the pinky but I didn't cut it or anything.

guidofatherof5

01-31-2013, 08:24 PM

Done correctly it should bleed readily. You can apply a little pressure on it with a paper towel and after a few moments it usually stops.
I will do a video on the procedure the next time I have a snake that need it.

d_virginiana

01-31-2013, 08:41 PM

Any way you can separate him from the others just for a week or so? Being in a tupperware container or something with newspaper would cut down on debris that could get into his mouth and keep food fights from happening. Plus it'd give you a better chance to keep an eye on him.

I mainly go by swelling and tissue color... If the swelling doesn't get worse and the tissue still looks pink and healthy, then try not to freak out too much over just the bleeding :)

RedSidedSPR

01-31-2013, 11:48 PM

d_virginiana

02-01-2013, 01:02 AM

As long as the bleeding is normal. And yeah obviously it bleeds readily I didn't mean it didn't. Just didn't realize it would/should bleed again.

He's in a separate 5.5 gallon tank with paper towels. His swelling is almost not visible.

I'd still monitor it for a couple weeks in case anything flairs up again, but it sounds like he's in the clear :)

RedSidedSPR

02-01-2013, 11:14 AM

Gum looks good, I don't see anything to worry about. I'll monitor him but yeah I think we're good. Thanks a lot for the help

RedSidedSPR

03-15-2013, 08:57 AM

So i stopped treatment a week ago. It had cleared up 3 weeks before that, and I just kept treating the perfect-looking mouth for the 3 weeks, stopping it 5 days ago.

And now it's back. Totally inflated again

kueluck

03-15-2013, 04:24 PM

I was reading back and you said you were using paper towel for substrate, still using this or something else? The reason I asked is because Sadie had a little lip problem like that also and it was because she would get a single piece of sani chip stuck. I treated her just as you did, but have changed my substrate back to carefresh until she is full grown, then going to try the sani chips again to see what happens.

d_virginiana

03-15-2013, 05:48 PM

Can you put up a recent picture?
My baby that had a mouth infection last fall (from injuring his mouth by latching onto the silicon in his tank, of all things...) is still getting regular mouth cleanings because his mouth is still puffy just from scar tissue. Harley had a mild mouth infection when she was probably 4-5 months old, and even a couple months after her first birthday, her mouth would need to be cleaned out daily when she was on carefresh, and I still had issues keeping it from getting infected. Where the seal on the lips wasn't quite right, dust and crap would get caught in it, and inflame it a little, then more would get caught, ect.
After the infections were over I didn't treat, I just cleaned out with water every day or so.

I'd recommend keeping him on either paper towels or newspaper for an extended period. Mine all still burrow under their newspaper and seem happy on it.