Hybrid Photo Thread

[Greg'sGarters]

I know that all, if not most garter snake breeders are against hybridization of species/subspecies of Thamnophis. However, it happens occasionally, whether it be from someone keeping their female checkered with their other "female" eastern or whether it be from overlapping ranges in nature. However, even though I am also against the hybridization of Thamnophis, I LOVE seeing photos of hybrids. I am a curious guy and naturally, I am curious to see what it would look like when you combined different subspecies/morphs. If you guys have any photos of garter hybrids, whether it be from your own hybridizing, or someone sent you a picture or whatever, post em down below!

***Note: This thread is to help educate people to recognize hybrid garters and to prevent the spread of non-pure bloodlines***

[guidofatherof5]

I have no photos but feel a thread dedicated to hybrid photos is in a way promoting the practice or possibly sparking an interest for the practice.
Don't mean to be a party pooper.
Just my opinion.

[Greg'sGarters]

I understand where you are coming from. That was my main concern about starting this thread. But on the good side, it also might help people to learn what different hybrids look like so that they can identify them and avoid purchasing them. When I was first getting into garter snakes, I was going to breed an Oregon Red-spotted to a Red-sided. It got sold to me as a Red-sided. Had it not been for me noticing the dark colored belly, and Scott Felzer correctly identifying it for me and telling me why hybridization was bad, I might have ended up with a bunch of hybrids. So this can also be an educational thread to prevent hybridization.

[Selkielass]

Prev posted.
Eastern mother, albino checkered father. No brumation. I Preview I had two females.
Little one didn't make it. Rest of clutch was jellybeans.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/DSC00005.JPG
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/DSC000061.JPG
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/DSC00002.JPG

Dad

[guidofatherof5]

I understand where you are coming from. That was my main concern about starting this thread. But on the good side, it also might help people to learn what different hybrids look like so that they can identify them and avoid purchasing them. When I was first getting into garter snakes, I was going to breed an Oregon Red-spotted to a Red-sided. It got sold to me as a Red-sided. Had it not been for me noticing the dark colored belly, and Scott Felzer correctly identifying it for me and telling me why hybridization was bad, I might have ended up with a bunch of hybrids. So this can also be an educational thread to prevent hybridization.

Then you should have posted the purpose of the thread.
I certainly didn't think this was an "educational" thread from the way it was described.;)

[Greg'sGarters]

Then you should have posted the purpose of the thread.
I certainly didn't think this was an "educational" thread from the way it was described.;)

Yeah, you're right, I'll ask one of the mods to add: "***Note: This thread is to help educate people to recognize hybrid garters and to prevent the spread of non-pure bloodlines***"

[ConcinusMan]

I have no photos but feel a thread dedicated to hybrid photos is in a way promoting the practice or possibly sparking an interest for the practice

Actually, most photos I've seen would have the opposite effect. I mean, look at this picture. I think we can all agree that checkered garters are great and so are concinnus' but look what happens when you cross them. They just look "blah"

T. sirtalis concinnus X T. marcianus:
http://imageshack.us/a/img35/6325/57865623074ec2f1692dbla.jpg

Now, crossing species usually has that effect. The offspring are usually just "blah" and not near as nice as the pure parents. Crossing similar subspecies such as concinnus and infernalis is a little different. (they are both T. sirtalis') The offspring can look just as attractive as the parents (but certainly not MORE attractive) but will have some traits of both.

I think it's a terrible idea both for the hobby and possibly wild populations. If I were to accidentally create a litter like this, I would surely cull them. I wouldn't want to take the chance that they could escape into an area where wild garters occur and I certainly wouldn't want people to breed them to each other or other pure garters. The only way to ensure that doesn't happen is to cull them or use them as feeders.

[chris-uk]

I understand where you are coming from. That was my main concern about starting this thread. But on the good side, it also might help people to learn what different hybrids look like so that they can identify them and avoid purchasing them. When I was first getting into garter snakes, I was going to breed an Oregon Red-spotted to a Red-sided. It got sold to me as a Red-sided. Had it not been for me noticing the dark colored belly, and Scott Felzer correctly identifying it for me and telling me why hybridization was bad, I might have ended up with a bunch of hybrids. So this can also be an educational thread to prevent hybridization.

The situation you describe here (planning to accidently breed concinnus to parietalis) wouldn't have been helped by seeing photos of a concinnus X parietalis hybrid... You had misidentified the pure-bred adults, not their offspring. What would have helped you in this situation was a garter species identification thread/wiki/page which contained identification photos that were guaranteed to be off the correct species (as opposed to a Google search for photos where some of them would have been incorrectly labelled).

I think most of the hybrid photos I've seen haven't been as pretty as the pure parents, but like morphs some people would find them attractive and intentionally breed them. There was a thread on RFUK last year where someone who normally bred boas was looking to acquire a pair of checkereds to breed against a pair of Cuitzeos he'd taken as part exchange on a boa. He thought it would be great to produce melanistic checkereds by hybridisation. Fortunately he decided to sell the Cuitzeos to someone who appreciated them for what they are.

[ssssnakeluvr]

my eastern x albino checkered hybrid female. she passed away last summer.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/ssssnakeluvr/DSCF5010-1_zps5b91ad2d.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/ssssnakeluvr/DSCF5006-1_zps8debd445.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/ssssnakeluvr/DSCF5006-1_zps8debd445.jpg

[ravgez]

sorry to here it passed, actually looks like a pretty snake.did you accidentally breed the two or did you adopt it?

[ConcinusMan]

Sorry about the image problem. Had a duplicate and I think I deleted the wrong one. So here it is again.

T.s. concinnus X T. marcianus
http://imageshack.us/a/img824/5817/concinnuscheckerdhybrid.jpg

[ssssnakeluvr]

sorry to here it passed, actually looks like a pretty snake.did you accidentally breed the two or did you adopt it?

she was part of a trio I acquired to give a good home to. she was the second to pass away. I have one left and he's doing well. I have taken in hybrids to give them a good life instead of just killing them. These "mutts", when accidently (or intentionally) are produced I don't mind taking them in and housing them. If someone had a herp that ate snakes and they were used for food, that would be ok, but otherwise why just kill them. we don't do that with dogs.... just make sure that they get a nice life and don't let them in the pet trade =) that's my feelings on it. I can house them and let them live a decent llife here. I understand not letting them out in the pet trade to mess up the genetics. but being an animal control officer I see too much euthanasia for no good reason. even though reptiles aren't seen the same way as demesticated animals, I feel they should be given a chance to live.
also, lets not start a war on here about my opinions, we are all entitled to our own opinions no matter what they are.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I actually inherited 4 of those concinnus x marcianus that richard posted. Marcianus are beautiful... Concinnus are beautiful... but when you combine them... look what you get! A dull looking snake that vaguely resembles an eastern. The babies were never to be bred. But I ended up not having to get that far anyways.... 2 of them passed on their own at random, and the other 2 developed more and more kinks down their backs and also eventually passed. Hybridizing garter snakes is no good. When people create hybrids they have this idealistic view that it is going to take the best parts of both species and combine them. More often than not, it's the opposite. Instead of the best parts, it combined all of the most drab and unimpressive features of both species.

This is the same thing that happened when bee keepers were attempting to engineer the perfect bee, and hybridized the african honeybee and the european honeybee. The goal was to combine the good features of these two bees.... and that is where "killer bees" came from.

[BUSHSNAKE]

ive had hybrids...im not into them but in reality they dont harm anything, theyve been around just as long as any other captive bred reptile.
Ive been told by Scott Felzer that they ruin the market...lol really? Have they? To each his own.

[Greg'sGarters]

I honestly don't think that there is a problem with hybrids. When it becomes a problem is when people end up selling the hybrids. I would say that if they accidentally breed, don't sell them. Keep them within your collection and don't breed them. If you can't keep them, I run an unofficial Thamnophis rescue and I would be more than happy to take them in, and I can assure you that they will not be bred, but they won't be treated any different than any other garter, they will receive the same amount of love and care. Most people will say that they are against hybrids, but honestly, those people, INCLUDING ME, just don't want people to think that hybrids are ok to sell. THEY ARE NOT OK TO SELL!!!

[BUSHSNAKE]

i thought of transfering the albino gene from parietalis to fitchi...just for fun:P
Im a diehard purist but i thought it still would be cool

[Greg'sGarters]

I think it's a terrible idea both for the hobby and possibly wild populations. If I were to accidentally create a litter like this, I would surely cull them. I wouldn't want to take the chance that they could escape into an area where wild garters occur and I certainly wouldn't want people to breed them to each other or other pure garters. The only way to ensure that doesn't happen is to cull them or use them as feeders.

Instead of culling them, you could just keep them and separate the sexes, so that they don't breed. If you can't keep them, I would be more than happy to take them. I run an unofficial garter rescue and I would be more than happy to take them. I would assure that they did not breed.

[Stefan-A]

I have to disagree. Hybrids should be treated like a contagion and be destroyed as soon as possible.

[ravgez]

I agree, I wouldn't condone breeding for hybrids but I wouldn't mind adopting one that needed a home. As long as the person you give them to understands they can't be reproduced or sold. What's the point in killing the poor thing?

[guidofatherof5]

I agree, I wouldn't condone breeding for hybrids but I wouldn't mind adopting one that needed a home. As long as the person you give them to understands they can't be reproduced or sold. What's the point in killing the poor thing?

Genetic protection.

[Greg'sGarters]

I have to disagree. Hybrids should be treated like a contagion and be destroyed as soon as possible.

Please explain.


I agree, I wouldn't condone breeding for hybrids but I wouldn't mind adopting one that needed a home. As long as the person you give them to understands they can't be reproduced or sold. What's the point in killing the poor thing?

I agree, I wouldn't recommend it but I don't think that they're a problem until they get sold.

[Greg'sGarters]

Genetic protection.

But what if they don't get sold and they never get bred? I mean it is still a snake. I think that it deserves the right to life, but they SHOULD NEVER BE BRED. If they are not bred, then you would still be protecting the gene pool.

[thamneil]

But what if they don't get sold and they never get bred? I mean it is still a snake. I think that it deserves the right to life, but they SHOULD NEVER BE BRED. If they are not bred, then you would still be protecting the gene pool.

Stuff happens. I'd like to think that everyone in the hobby was at our level of understanding but we cannot make that assumption. Hybrids are a danger to both captive bloodlines and possibly wild ones too. They should either be destroyed or kept by whoever created them.

[Stefan-A]

I agree, I wouldn't condone breeding for hybrids but I wouldn't mind adopting one that needed a home. As long as the person you give them to understands they can't be reproduced or sold. What's the point in killing the poor thing?
Well, you can't guarantee that it won't escape or that you or the next owner will be able to keep it for the rest of its life. If you have to give it up, for example due to new legislation, a need to move to another area where keeping garters is illegal, illness, injury, running into financial problems or whatever else, you can't guarantee that the next owner will be as responsible as you. The moment they leave your hands, they are completely beyond your control.

I would find sterilization an acceptable alternative to euthanasia.

[guidofatherof5]

I understand the mindset of culling them out.
A culled snake will NEVER breed and pass on the hybrid genes.
I value life above all and would have a very difficult time culling a group of snakes but I do see the importance of doing it.

[Spankenstyne]

ive had hybrids...im not into them but in reality they dont harm anything, theyve been around just as long as any other captive bred reptile.
Ive been told by Scott Felzer that they ruin the market...lol really? Have they? To each his own.

To be honest it can to a degree, and in other species it has. At least on the level of not knowing with much certaintly how "true" the lines really are, and it usually goes hand in hand with the morph scene. Look at Corn snakes, same goes with Pituophis and some Milks & Kings. It hasn't really happened much with Garters and imo it's mainly due to the lack of a lot of designer morphs available and general interest in Garters as a whole. It's important at this stage to be as diligent as we can about keeping them pure, it doesn't take much to muddy the waters & hopefully more folks realize this and do what they can to avoid it.

I don't have a problem with them if honestly represented, as you say to each their own, but I steer well clear of them in my collection. The problem is introduction into the breeding pool, intentional or not. If there were inexpensive sterilization solutions it would be less of a concern.

[Greg'sGarters]

Can we all agree on this at least? If you have hybrid garters, keep them to yourself and don't let them breed. From reading everyone's perspectives, I think that that seems fair.

[guidofatherof5]

I think the best you're going to get is that we can agree to disagree. ;)

I couldn't cull a group of babies but I understand those that could.

[Greg'sGarters]

Just to put this out there - I run an unofficial garter rescue, so anyone who has any hybrids that doesn't want them, I urge you to send them to me instead of culling them. They will be cared for like a normal garter, loved like a normal garter, and WILL NOT BE BRED!!!!!!!!!!! So if you have any and are looking to get rid of them, PM me.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Just to put this out there - I run an unofficial garter rescue, so anyone who has any hybrids that doesn't want them, I urge you to send them to me instead of culling them. They will be cared for like a normal garter, loved like a normal garter, and WILL NOT BE BRED!!!!!!!!!!! So if you have any and are looking to get rid of them, PM me.

you don't have unlimited resources, Greg.

[Greg'sGarters]

you don't have unlimited resources, Greg.

I know, but how many hybrids can I get? It's a little burden for a good purpose.

[ConcinusMan]

Instead of culling them, you could just keep them and separate the sexes, so that they don't breed. If you can't keep them, I would be more than happy to take them..... I would assure that they did not breed.

Like I said , I would most likely cull them immediately. One reason is that every year I have litters I always end up finding one or a few "running" around the house no matter how careful I am with handling / transferring, feeding etc. At least one always ends up being found escaped in the house somewhere. Besides the concern about keeping them from escaping (which I can't assure that they won't) you would suggest that I also feed and care them and try to find homes for them where I would then definitely have no control over their escaping or breeding. All that is out of the question, I would cull them immediately before they would need to be fed and before they could escape. But I don't like to see a life wasted so I'd rather they be used for feeders if possible.

But none of that is going to happen anyway because it's a heck of a lot easier to just make it impossible for hybrids to be conceived in the first place. Other than northwesterns with any sirtalis ssp., (which cannot and have not interbreed due to physical incompatibility) I just don't keep adults of different species together even if I think they're the same sex. So, you nailed it with the last thing you said. I would assure they can't cross breed in the first place. If I can "assure that they (the crossbreed offspring) did not breed" Then I can do the same to prevent crosses from being born in the first place.

That is the first line of "defense". Prevention. If that goes wrong and you do end up with hybrid litters the only "right" thing left to do IMO is to ensure they don't live. I can't ensure they won't escape or that someone else will let them escape or breed if I let them live. It would be bad enough to make the first mistake of creating them but letting them live or sending them out would be yet another mistake IMO and two mistakes won't fix the first one, it would only make it worse.

The only way to "ensure that they don't...." as people keep saying, is to cull them period. So yeah, I cringe to say it but I agree with Stefan. So, if I don't want to have to do that then I'll just not let hybrids in the first place. We all know how baby snakes are made. I don't think it's difficult at all to prevent it.

[d_virginiana]

Just adding in another way hybridization can ruin not necessarily the hobby, but the lives of the animals. In horned frogs, there is a lot of interspecies hybridization that goes on, because the offspring are really good looking (not as dangerous since this mainly happens in America and Japan, and there is no way these animals could escape captivity and contaminate wild bloodlines in South America). But some of the hybrids called 'green apples' are almost always deformed or unhealthy to some degree, and lead very short lives. But they're pretty and bright, so people continue to breed and buy them.
Wouldn't surprise me at all if similar issues popped up in other closely related species like those in Thamnophis.

I'm with Steve... I probably couldn't bring myself to cull a healthy animal, but I understand those that do. I could probably come to terms with using them as feeders better than culling, since at least it wouldn't be a waste.

[chris-uk]

Unless you're very fortunate we all have finite resources, even The Ranch can't cope with an unlimited number of garters (can it Steve?). So there's a point at which the practicality of keeping hybrid babies becomes the reality of keeping those babies securely and isolated from other garters for the term of their natural lives. Take a hypothetical litter of hybrids, who could honestly say that they could keep a litter of 20 for potentially 15 years? How about 30? Hypothetical because hybrid litters I've read about have been much smaller, but it makes you stop and think about the principle of keeping hybrids alive.
The second practical note I'd make is what provision you make for hybrids if you were to step in front of a bus. Would the person dealing with your snakes know that the hybrids needed special attention, or would they just end up in the hobby? Come to that, how do any of us ensure that our snakes will be looked after if anything happens to us? Time to write down some instructions for our next of kind maybe? But I digress.

On the practicalities of keeping a hybrid litter alive. I don't know that I could look after more than a couple, and I don't think I'd find trusted homes for more than a couple more. So I'd unfortunately have to come down on the culling side of the fence. Better make sure it doesn't happen.

[Steveo]

I'd cull any hybrids the way I used to cull fish: feed them to something bigger. A kingsnake could make short work of a new litter, or I could freeze them and give them to one of the local raptor rehab facilities.

I wouldn't feel good about it, but sometimes you have to set emotions aside and do what's best. History tells us that sometimes it only takes one person with good intentions to f*&^ everything up.

[Greg'sGarters]

Honestly, I would have to agree that the BEST THING to do is just not to let them breed in the first place. That stands above all else in my eyes. If I did have to cull any snakes, after reading a few other threads, I like Steve's way of gassing with CO2. I feel like this is probably the most humane way to cull a snake. I heard that there is supposed to be little to no suffering on the animal's part. Steve, if you're reading this, do you think that you could post up a thread about CO2 Euthanization? Anyway, does anyone else have any photos?

[guidofatherof5]

I have been planning on a euthanasia discussion thread for some time now.
It truly is a can-of-worms as there are differing opinions on the process. Different ideas in different cultures and areas of the world.
I have been holding off until I can introduce it correctly.;)

[Greg'sGarters]

I have been planning on a euthanasia discussion thread for some time now.
It truly is a can-of-worms as there are differing opinions on the process. Different ideas in different cultures and areas of the world.
I have been holding off until I can introduce it correctly.;)

That seems reasonable, just, and understandable. There are probably some people on this forum who wouldn't even think about euthanizing a snake even if it had every species of Thamnophis in it's bloodline. I can see how a thread like that could cause controversy, sorta like this one did. Some people think hybridization is a gift from heaven, others say it's a curse from hell.

[BUSHSNAKE]

To be honest it can to a degree, and in other species it has. At least on the level of not knowing with much certaintly how "true" the lines really are, and it usually goes hand in hand with the morph scene. Look at Corn snakes, same goes with Pituophis and some Milks & Kings. It hasn't really happened much with Garters and imo it's mainly due to the lack of a lot of designer morphs available and general interest in Garters as a whole. It's important at this stage to be as diligent as we can about keeping them pure, it doesn't take much to muddy the waters & hopefully more folks realize this and do what they can to avoid it.

I don't have a problem with them if honestly represented, as you say to each their own, but I steer well clear of them in my collection. The problem is introduction into the breeding pool, intentional or not. If there were inexpensive sterilization solutions it would be less of a concern.
Oh god there are a ton of lines, most of the early classics, that are completely lost as far as purity goes. Brooks kings are a good example. They have a tiny natural range and im suppose believe that all those morphs came from the wild...hahaha yeah right!!! Its sad but i dont know how harmfull it really is. I like facts not speculation. Follow the Morelia hobby much?? Its crazy mixed, i would like to get some pure darwins before they become polluted lol

But hey thats why wildcaughts are important to our hobby...or i should say important to me and everyone who captive breed snakes

[Greg'sGarters]

I feel like hybridization is only bad when the majority of the people disagree with it. Look at corn snakes, people hybridize them all the time with rat snakes and even king/milk snakes. Their market is doing GREAT! But that's because people allowed that to happen.

[Greg'sGarters]

But hey thats why wildcaughts are important to our hobby...or i should say important to me and everyone who captive breed snakes

That and to keep the bloodline strong. Just look at what happened to the Lucy Texas Rats.

[Steveo]

I feel like hybridization is only bad when the majority of the people disagree with it. Look at corn snakes, people hybridize them all the time with rat snakes and even king/milk snakes. Their market is doing GREAT! But that's because people allowed that to happen.


People who value money over ethics allowed it to happen. Some of the stuff they create sickens me.

[Spankenstyne]

Oh god there are a ton of lines, most of the early classics, that are completely lost as far as purity goes. Brooks kings are a good example. They have a tiny natural range and im suppose believe that all those morphs came from the wild...hahaha yeah right!!! Its sad but i dont know how harmfull it really is. I like facts not speculation. Follow the Morelia hobby much?? Its crazy mixed, i would like to get some pure darwins before they become polluted lol

But hey thats why wildcaughts are important to our hobby...or i should say important to me and everyone who captive breed snakes

Yep that's what I'm getting at, don't even get me started on Morelia haha. I was in a rush when I posted but they are definitely one of the worst, and all for "designer morphs". Same with all the "white sided" kings, originally it was crossed in from Black Ratsnakes. The scariest part of hybrids is the chance of re-introduction into wild populations either through escape or intentional release.

[Greg'sGarters]

Anymore photos? Keep em comin!

[Invisible Snake]

This thread has pictures of hybrids

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/11501-escapee-recaught-baggage.html

[Steveo]

People who value money over ethics allowed it to happen. Some of the stuff they create sickens me.

Furthermore, it's almost impossible to get pure bloodlines anymore. I've been trying to find an unrelated pair of CB desert kings for a year now and nobody has any males. I'm seriously considering taking a weekend trip to NM/AZ this spring to catch a pair myself. Somebody has to do it.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I feel like hybridization is only bad when the majority of the people disagree with it. Look at corn snakes, people hybridize them all the time with rat snakes and even king/milk snakes. Their market is doing GREAT! But that's because people allowed that to happen.

Actually, their market is beyond over saturated, and crashed. That market is not doing great at all. They are just so common and cheap that everyone has them. The sheer amount of corn snake babies for sale alone attest to that... and that doesn't even count all of the corn mutts that have arisen all because people breed two snakes together just because they could.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

That and to keep the bloodline strong. Just look at what happened to the Lucy Texas Rats.

what exactly happened to them? They certainly aren't weak.... the only thing to complain about is the nasty bug eyed thing. All it would take is culling the bug eyed babies at birth and continual outcrossing.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

People who value money over ethics allowed it to happen. Some of the stuff they create sickens me.

I'm not really a fan of it either, but I can assure you that not EVERYONE who makes hybrids is doing it with dollar signs in their eyes. Some genuinely are just as in love with it as we are our thamnophis.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Can we all agree on this at least? If you have hybrid garters, keep them to yourself and don't let them breed. From reading everyone's perspectives, I think that that seems fair.

I would definitely cull them before I kept them all if I had a litter somehow. You can only go so long before they start to tax on your resources and take up space that you just don't have. I will always feed off anything I cull. At least I would have plenty of snakes to feed them to... I also save stillborns and use them as feeders also. But if an animal dies on it's own in my care, I don't feed it to anything, aside maybe my centipede. Too many variables as to why it may have died, I'd rather not run the risk.

[ChareiHeals]

This was awesome. It made me laugh.


This thread has pictures of hybrids

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/11501-escapee-recaught-baggage.html

[BUSHSNAKE]

i posted a picture of concinnus x parietalis somewhere on this forum

[ConcinusMan]

This thread has pictures of hybrids

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/11501-escapee-recaught-baggage.html

And there you go. If the albino checkered got away what can he do to ensure that none of these babies get loose? It's a good thing he found her before she had babies.

And that brings up another question. Obviously just one purebred non-native garter getting loose where other garters occur is apparently enough to get hybrids in the wild. So the question then is, is it a good idea to keep non natives at all? What if they get loose and hybridize with the locals? Would it really have any impact on the local genepool or would dilution and natural selection take care of eliminating the impact or even make it a positive impact? Look what happened with human beings. We interbred with neanderthals but natural selection and dilution made it so that the impact didn't really change us but it did add immunity to diseases. We now only carry the "good" Neanderthal genes. The ones that made us better off, not worse off.

I guess what I'm trying to say , is it even possible for a few escaped snakes/hybrids to have anything but a very temporary and insignificant negative impact? Wouldn't natural selection "fix" the gene pool eventually anyway?

[d_virginiana]

Excluding areas where hybrids and integrades naturally occur in small numbers (like I imagine there are more than a couple sirtalis/similis integrades in Florida) I'd say it probably wouldn't have ANY long term effect on wild populations. Unless a very large number of non-native garters escaped and successfully bred with the natives, there would likely be no long-term change in local genetics.
Considering how closely related most garter species and subspecies are, there probably aren't a lot of specific characteristics that would be selected for in a hybrid. Assuming that is the case, after a few generations, statistics say random genetic walk or 'drift' should eliminate those incredibly uncommon genes from the wild gene pool. There's a possibility that some of them would hang around, but they would likely be nonfunctional, and probably nothing that we could even identify on a phenotypic level.

Still, it's better safe than sorry. :p

[Stefan-A]

So the question then is, is it a good idea to keep non natives at all?
No.


What if they get loose and hybridize with the locals?
Reduced fitness, possible collapse of the local population and possible domino effect starting with species that depended on it.


Would it really have any impact on the local genepool
Yes.


or would dilution and natural selection take care of eliminating the impact or even make it a positive impact?
No.


Look what happened with human beings.
Look at what happened with neanderthals (H. neanderthalensis was also a human, humans aren't just H. sapiens).


We interbred with neanderthals but natural selection and dilution made it so that the impact didn't really change us but it did add immunity to diseases.
What's "dilution"? Anyway, we're still finding out what effect it had, it's far too early to draw any conclusions or make any generalizations. For all we know, we can thank that interbreeding for an increased risk of a few types of cancer, diabetes and a whole range of allergies. Too early to tell, pointless to speculate.


We now only carry the "good" Neanderthal genes.
You don't know that.


The ones that made us better off, not worse off.
You don't know that, either. And don't forget, instead of two species of human, there's now just one. You have a loss of biodiversity there, not an increase.


I guess what I'm trying to say , is it even possible for a few escaped snakes/hybrids to have anything but a very temporary and insignificant negative impact?
Yes. It is. And it's something people working with conservation keep trying to get people to understand. For example, there is a thing called outbreeding depression. There's also a reason why sympatric species and subspecies that can interbreed, won't, and why all species capable of interbreeding don't just blend into one.


Wouldn't natural selection "fix" the gene pool eventually anyway?
What does "fix" mean? Do you know how natural selection (pardon the anthropomorphism) "fixes" things?

[d_virginiana]

There would still have to be a fairly large number of non-native Thamnophis introduced into an area for it to affect the long-term gene pool of a population, assuming they don't have some amazing super gene that gets highly selected for.
Think about what you said one of the main consequences would be; reduced fitness. If one or even a couple hybrid litters of reduced fitness end up in the wild, assuming they are selected against or neutrally, then it would not take long for genetic drift to remove those genes from the population.

[Greg'sGarters]

And there you go. If the albino checkered got away what can he do to ensure that none of these babies get loose? It's a good thing he found her before she had babies.

And that brings up another question. Obviously just one purebred non-native garter getting loose where other garters occur is apparently enough to get hybrids in the wild. So the question then is, is it a good idea to keep non natives at all? What if they get loose and hybridize with the locals? Would it really have any impact on the local genepool or would dilution and natural selection take care of eliminating the impact or even make it a positive impact? Look what happened with human beings. We interbred with neanderthals but natural selection and dilution made it so that the impact didn't really change us but it did add immunity to diseases. We now only carry the "good" Neanderthal genes. The ones that made us better off, not worse off.

I guess what I'm trying to say , is it even possible for a few escaped snakes/hybrids to have anything but a very temporary and insignificant negative impact? Wouldn't natural selection "fix" the gene pool eventually anyway?

I was talking to Steve on Skype about this before. It would be unlikely for a snake to escape and get into another snake's cage* and hybridize, so your collection would be safe, but if it got out in the wild, wouldn't a hybrid cause just as much as, if not less damage than another purebred species/subspecies getting loose?

*Although there have been 3 instances where garters of mine had escaped and I had found them on top of my female eastern's cage. All but 1 escapees have been found on her cage after I caught her. She's like the Megan Fox of garters, she attracts garters and ribbons!

[Stefan-A]

There would still have to be a fairly large number of non-native Thamnophis introduced into an area for it to affect the long-term gene pool of a population, assuming they don't have some amazing super gene that gets highly selected for.
Think about what you said one of the main consequences would be; reduced fitness. If one or even a couple hybrid litters of reduced fitness end up in the wild, assuming they are selected against or neutrally, then it would not take long for genetic drift to remove those genes from the population.
Assuming there isn't some amazing super gene, that allows the carrier to outcompete the others, which in itself would constitute a loss. I'd also like to point out, that what may offer a short term advantage may well be a long term disadvantage.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Megan fox is hot! Hey wait, if you guy's don't hear from me again my wife killed me.
i was talking to steve on skype about this before. It would be unlikely for a snake to escape and get into another snake's cage* and hybridize, so your collection would be safe, but if it got out in the wild, wouldn't a hybrid cause just as much as, if not less damage than another purebred species/subspecies getting loose?

*although there have been 3 instances where garters of mine had escaped and i had found them on top of my female eastern's cage. All but 1 escapees have been found on her cage after i caught her. She's like the megan fox of garters, she attracts garters and ribbons!

[d_virginiana]

I was talking to Steve on Skype about this before. It would be unlikely for a snake to escape and get into another snake's cage* and hybridize, so your collection would be safe, but if it got out in the wild, wouldn't a hybrid cause just as much as, if not less damage than another purebred species/subspecies getting loose?

*Although there have been 3 instances where garters of mine had escaped and I had found them on top of my female eastern's cage. All but 1 escapees have been found on her cage after I caught her. She's like the Megan Fox of garters, she attracts garters and ribbons!


I would say any amount of non-native genetics getting into the wild population would be the concern. A hybrid could be more or less of an issue than a purebred in this case. For example, if you had a concinnus get loose in eastern territory, those genes would have a higher likelihood of getting passed on and crossing into the local eastern population, at least for a few generations. But if you had a concinnus/eastern hybrid get loose it may be more likely to mate with the native easterns than a purebred concinnus, and therefore more likely to pass on the non-native genes.

IMO hybrids are more of a danger to the hobby than ecology... Any escaped snake of a non-native species has the potential to mess things up. Though I doubt non-native garters would have the sorts of advantages (or be released in large enough numbers) to permanently affect a gene pool.


Assuming there isn't some amazing super gene, that allows the carrier to outcompete the others, which in itself would constitute a loss. I'd also like to point out, that what may offer a short term advantage may well be a long term disadvantage.

Agreed. I personally doubt that 'super gene' would show up, given how similar most Thamnophis are, but you never know. It's always better to prevent that sort of problem than worry about it after it appears.

[Steveo]

It may not be an ecological problem at all if a few got out - they might die and that would be the end of it. But without knowing for certain it's a risk that we should not intentionally take. Prevention is far easier than cleaning up.

As an example, U.S. Farmers lose billions every year because one guy wanted to bring the European Starling to the new world. He released a few dozen in NY's Central Park and now they are estimated to number over 100 million birds across the contiguous 48. The English House Sparrow has a similar story. The selfishness of just a few people can alter an entire nation's ecology forever.

[CrazyHedgehog]

we had red squirrels, someone brought in grey squirrels, they took over, now the red squirrel is very rare!

[Greg'sGarters]

It may not be an ecological problem at all if a few got out - they might die and that would be the end of it. But without knowing for certain it's a risk that we should not intentionally take. Prevention is far easier than cleaning up.

I pray that no one would ever intentionally release ANY captive animal into the wild unless it was a native species and they were a licensed wildlife rehabilitator. Unfortunately, people still do it. :(


As an example, U.S. Farmers lose billions every year because one guy wanted to bring the European Starling to the new world. He released a few dozen in NY's Central Park and now they are estimated to number over 100 million birds across the contiguous 48. The English House Sparrow has a similar story. The selfishness of just a few people can alter an entire nation's ecology forever.

True, true. That guy actually released them into the US because Shakespeare had mentioned the European Starling in one of his works, and this crazy guy thought that it would be a good idea to take all the species of birds that Shakespeare mentioned in his plays and release them into the US. :rolleyes:.

[Stefan-A]

we had red squirrels, someone brought in grey squirrels, they took over, now the red squirrel is very rare!
Yeah. It's happened countless times and still people refuse to acknowledge that it's a bad idea to release animals where they don't occur naturally.

Here's another example:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/nature/nature09/2009-05-24-mink-4.jpg

This little ******* already outcompeted one native species and is in the process of wiping out amphibians and bird colonies along the coast.

[Stefan-A]

True, true. That guy actually released them into the US because Shakespeare had mentioned the European Starling in one of his works, and this crazy guy thought that it would be a good idea to take all the species of birds that Shakespeare mentioned in his plays and release them into the US. :rolleyes:.
If I only had a time machine and a hammer... Well, I have the latter.

[Stefan-A]

I moved the mink stuff it It's oh so quiet.

[ConcinusMan]

my eastern x albino checkered hybrid female. she passed away last summer.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/ssssnakeluvr/DSCF5010-1_zps5b91ad2d.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/ssssnakeluvr/DSCF5006-1_zps8debd445.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/ssssnakeluvr/DSCF5006-1_zps8debd445.jpg

That is pretty, but is it an improvement over a pure checkered or pure eastern? certainly not.