Brumating/Breeding out of season

[Steveo]

Has anyone attempted this? I used to simulate different weather and seasons when breeding fish but it seems like it would be a bit more complicated with reptiles.

I ask because it seems more manageable to spread litters throughout the year rather than have hundreds of scrubs at once.

[guidofatherof5]

I got nothin'. Sorry.

[Greg'sGarters]

It should't cause a problem. Just make sure it has been at least a year since they have last brumated. I am actually going to do this next year so I can produce snakes out of season as well as in season. I feel like I always have to wait until the summer to get a nice baby garter. I want to be able to provide the garter hobby with snakes during the winter as well as the summer. The winter snakes will of course be pickup only, or sold at reptile shows.

[guidofatherof5]

Just keep in mind the snakes have something to do with this process. Breeding in optimal conditions and seasons isn't a sure thing.

[Steveo]

Just keep in mind the snakes have something to do with this process. Breeding in optimal conditions and seasons isn't a sure thing.

Right, but it seems worth trying. Worst case, they don't breed and you lose a year.

The way I see it, someone could do three 4-month cycles per year: brumate for 2 months, 2 month gestation, birth. At birth, cool the next group. While group 2 is cooling, use those 2 months to get the first litters feeding, pick holdbacks, distribute the rest. repeat.

[Greg'sGarters]

Just keep in mind the snakes have something to do with this process. Breeding in optimal conditions and seasons isn't a sure thing.

Captive bred snakes that have never been brumated are much easier to brumate out of season. Because their internal clocks have not been set. It's like it's harder to lock someone in a opaque room who has been outside for most of their life, and tell them what time it is, then it is to tell someone what time it is who was born in that room. They have no sense of time of day. They could be falling asleep at 10PM or 10AM. But once you turn off the lights, they will think that it is night time. Speaking metaphorically of course.

[guidofatherof5]

Captive bred snakes that have never been brumated are much easier to brumate out of season. Because their internal clocks have not been set. It's like it's harder to lock someone in a opaque room who has been outside for most of their life, and tell them what time it is, then it is to tell someone what time it is who was born in that room. They have no sense of time of day. They could be falling asleep at 10PM or 10AM. But once you turn off the lights, they will think that it is night time. Speaking metaphorically of course.

I don't know about that but this clock you talk of is preset (instincts) and any amount of cursory changes might not have an effect on it.
I think snakes do more then just sense daylight hours and sun angle degrees to tell them it's brumation time. I have no proof of this but believe there is far more to it then that.
Just my opinion.

[Greg'sGarters]

Right, but it seems worth trying. Worst case, they don't breed and you lose a year.

The way I see it, someone could do three 4-month cycles per year: brumate for 2 months, 2 month gestation, birth. At birth, cool the next group. While group 2 is cooling, use those 2 months to get the first litters feeding, pick holdbacks, distribute the rest. repeat.

I've wanted to do that but not enough tanks.

[guidofatherof5]

Right, but it seems worth trying. Worst case, they don't breed and you lose a year.

The way I see it, someone could do three 4-month cycles per year: brumate for 2 months, 2 month gestation, birth. At birth, cool the next group. While group 2 is cooling, use those 2 months to get the first litters feeding, pick holdbacks, distribute the rest. repeat.

No. Worst case is you lose snakes in brumation.
I by no means am an expert on this subject but I feel brumation for breeding isn't something that can be cycled so easily. I feel most of the time snakes cycle on their clocks, not ours.
There must be physical changes that happen in a snake long before brumation. Simply putting them in a cold spot doesn't seem right if these other criteria haven't been met.
I am not trying to start an argument, here's my thought.
It's Summer and the snake is in Summer mode. Gathering food and trying to store fat, developing ovum(eggs). Now, they are placed in a cold environment for an extended period of time. Their body isn't ready for the brumation yet. Too many things about this are not in our control and in my opinion never will be. They ovulate at a certain time for a certain reason.
You might get by with it on the end of a normal brumation(holding a mate from a snake until late in the breeding season) but I don't think any other time is wise.
Just my opinion.

[snake man]

I agree that you should try to keep it as realistic and natural as possible, not force an unexpected 2 months in the cold.

[Stefan-A]

http://people.oregonstate.edu/~masonr/pdfs/010roleoflight.pdf
I had a better one somewhere.



Also, I've bred garters out of season. No big deal.

[Steveo]

http://people.oregonstate.edu/~masonr/pdfs/010roleoflight.pdf
I had a better one somewhere.




Thanks, Stefan. Those results are very similar to what I noticed when breeding B. splendens and other species; as long as they're well fed and warm with the right water chemistry, they'll spawn any time regardless of photoperiod. Many breeders leave the lights on 24/7 so they can see better when tending to the nest.