Sandy soil.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

All the pictures I see of marciunus habitat is quite dry compared to the more northern Sp.
After looking at them I've been wondering if a sand/potting soil mixture would be suitable for them (Like the substrate used used for monitors).

What sand/soil ratio would allow the garter to burrow?
How often will it need to be watered?

[Greg'sGarters]

Honestly, I would stay away from that stuff. I wouldn't want my garters to ingest it. I like to use Excavator (http://zoomed.com/db/products/EntryDetail.php?EntryID=188&DatabaseID=2&SearchID=5) by Zoo Med. Just follow the mixing ratio on the package. Then just compress it down until it feels solid. Let it dry. It turns into a clay like substance like this - http://zoomed.eu/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Excavator_in_use.jpg. You have to compact it down though, in that photo, it is not compacted as densely as I compact it.

[Stefan-A]

A lot of people here use a mix of sand and peat moss, not sure about the ratio. It's probably not going to cause any problems if ingested, unless the snake gets a mouthful of it, and at that point it doesn't matter what substrate it is.

[infernalis]

In the wild, I'm certain that they ingest a little dirt when eating a worm.

Unlike aspen, coconut or carefresh, dirt is natural, and a healthy snake would pass that dirt right through.

A biologist that I correspond with even has a theory that the minerals in a little dirt may even be good for the animals that ingest it.

When fecal samples from wildlife are examined in a lab, traces of dirt are commonly found in the analysis.

[thamneil]

I'd go for it. That is a very natural medium and shouldn't have any problems being passed. I'd probably choose a black earth or organic potting soil and add sand until I get what I like.

Heck, you could even throw some live plants in that!

[-MARWOLAETH-]

"Heck,you could even throw some live plants in that"
That's what I intend to do :D Ive decided to go with pothos,either snake or jade plant,Ficus pumila and a few wild grasses growing in clumps on the ledges.

Wayne-What substrate mix do you use for your boscs?

[thamneil]

Wild grass would look gorgeous! I really condone the use of ivy as well. Such a gorgeous plant! Tough as nails and looks extremely natural.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

LoL Forgot about ivy.If I can work how to make it grow up the background,it should look amazing! What are requirments for light and water?

[ConcinusMan]

I don't think that the habitat they are from should make any difference in your substrate choice. Some substrates are a poor choice for garter snakes, others are good. I don't think it makes any difference what type of habitat your garter inhabits in the wild. Also, if you're going to use sand, I think it's important to consider that not all sands are created equal.

[thamneil]

I've had it grow under incandescent bulbs! Don't know if it would cling to a background but it would certainly make a great ground cover.

[infernalis]

Wayne-What substrate mix do you use for your boscs?

Dirt from out back, mixed with a lttle play sand.


I don't think that the habitat they are from should make any difference in your substrate choice. Some substrates are a poor choice for garter snakes, others are good. I don't think it makes any difference what type of habitat your garter inhabits in the wild. Also, if you're going to use sand, I think it's important to consider that not all sands are created equal.

I am rather confused Richard, so am I to assume this means we know better than the animals about what they need or prefer, so we should take away control from them and force the animal to live in a fashion that is what we feel is best for them??

Not taking a jab at you or anything, but the statement you made almost sounds like Garter Snakes don't know what is best for themselves.

[Stefan-A]

I am rather confused Richard, so am I to assume this means we know better than the animals about what they need or prefer, so we should take away control from them and force the animal to live in a fashion that is what we feel is best for them??
In all fairness, nature doesn't provide optimal conditions, animals just adapt to the existing ones. All we learn from the natural conditions, is that they won't kill garters faster than the garters can reproduce. In fact, under natural conditions, garters are killed as fast as they can reproduce.
To use a more radical example of people knowing better: We don't brumate our animals under conditions that kill half of them each year.

[chris-uk]

As Stefan eluded to, discussions about wild versus captive conditions should consider the wild versus captive survival rates. The survival rate of wild animals would be completely unacceptable to any keeper of captive animals. However, discussions tend to be about single factors (i.e. is the substrate good or bad? Or, will this brumation method work well?) and the wild death rates aren't attributable to single factors.

Can eating soil kill a captive snake? Almost certainly in the right conditions. Do wild snakes die after ingesting soil? Almost certainly, but I doubt there's any evidence to support this.

[infernalis]

In all fairness, nature doesn't provide optimal conditions, animals just adapt to the existing ones. All we learn from the natural conditions, is that they won't kill garters faster than the garters can reproduce. In fact, under natural conditions, garters are killed as fast as they can reproduce.
To use a more radical example of people knowing better: We don't brumate our animals under conditions that kill half of them each year.

I was in no way suggesting that we subject our captives to extremes like cold, famine, droughts, floods , predators or diseases.

However, things like stuck sheds, scale rot, etc.. would be a lot less of an issue if more people would keep husbandry within the parameters of an "ideal day" in the wild, rather than forcing animals to live under conditions that we find pleasing to us.

hope that makes sense.

[chris-uk]

... keep husbandry within the parameters of an "ideal day" in the wild...

Well put. My aims are to provide as ideal an environment as is practical. The debate is around what natural hazards you exclude and the line where practical becomes impractical. With a lottery win, I'd consider building an escape-proof (yeah, we've all heard that before) room to mimic habitats, and they would certainly involve using a soil substrate - unfortunately this pie-in-the-sky ambition isn't an option so far.

[Stefan-A]

Not all hazards are obvious.

[chris-uk]

Not all hazards are obvious.

Hence I was vague.

[infernalis]

Check out this thread Chris....

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/enclosures/3741-outdoor.html - By Zooplan (Udo)

[chris-uk]

Check out this thread Chris....

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/enclosures/3741-outdoor.html - By Zooplan (Udo)

Thanks Wayne, I just had a read of that old thread. I knew that a couple of European garter people had outdoor setups, I'd not seen Udo's thread. It looks like an impressive outdoor terrarium. My pie in the sky plan would involve several enclosures of that style in a barn-type building so that I could have some control over the elements.

[kimbosaur]

Wouldn't it get tricky if you start adding plants directly to the substrate? You're going to need to water them and soggy soil sounds like it would be a big headache if you accidentally overwater. I think the hardest thing is mimicking the natural balance of an ecosystem in a small enclosure.

I wonder if it would help if you plant the pots and hide them in the substrate. Maybe that would give you more control when it comes to watering and cleaning?

[Greg'sGarters]

I am rather confused Richard, so am I to assume this means we know better than the animals about what they need or prefer, so we should take away control from them and force the animal to live in a fashion that is what we feel is best for them??

Just because it is found in nature doesn't mean that it is best for them. Humans had to go for thousands of years, living in a cave or shelter, no clothes, during the winter time. But if I stripped you naked and threw you outside you wouldn't be too happy :p. But now we keep our houses at a comfortable temperature all year round.

[infernalis]

Not all hazards are obvious.


Like the garter snake of mine that died because it swallowed a hunk of carefresh that subsequently absorbed liquid and swelled up inside.

but it's just so pretty, I like purple substrate... so it has to be good.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Wouldn't it get tricky if you start adding plants directly to the substrate? You're going to need to water them and soggy soil sounds like it would be a big headache if you accidentally overwater. I think the hardest thing is mimicking the natural balance of an ecosystem in a small enclosure.

I wonder if it would help if you plant the pots and hide them in the substrate. Maybe that would give you more control when it comes to watering and cleaning?

I'm only going to put the arid adapted plants and grasses in the substrate so shouldn't cause problems. The ones that require more watering or have delicate roots will be in trays and pots.

[Greg'sGarters]

Like the garter snake of mine that died because it swallowed a hunk of carefresh that subsequently absorbed liquid and swelled up inside.

but it's just so pretty, I like purple substrate... so it has to be good.

I don't like care fresh a lot. I use it for my brumation boxes, because it absorbs humidity very well and they don't eat so there is no worry about them ingesting it. But I don't use it for my breeding tanks. Newspaper pellets are less likely to stick to food, easier to spot clean, are easier for the snake to remove, and lets face it - they are cheaper.

[-MARWOLAETH-]

Just because it is found in nature doesn't mean that it is best for them. Humans had to go for thousands of years, living in a cave or shelter, no clothes, during the winter time. But if I stripped you naked and threw you outside you wouldn't be too happy :p. But now we keep our houses at a comfortable temperature all year round.
Some aspects found in nature work in vivariums if implemented correctly
E.g In the wild aerobic bacteria brake down organic material. Bioactive substrates use those bacteria to brake down animal waist-resulting in a low maintainance and odorless viv.

[Greg'sGarters]

Some aspects found in nature work in vivariums if implemented correctly
E.g In the wild aerobic bacteria brake down organic material. Bioactive substrates use those bacteria to brake down animal waist-resulting in a low maintainance and odorless viv.

I agree 100%! I'm not saying that nature is a horrible, terrible, tortuous thing. I'm saying that nature isn't PERFECT. For example, with the Moorish Idol, very few, if not nobody has been able to successfully breed them in captivity. Scientists don't know why they never live out their full life span in captivity. However, their populations are just fine in nature. So yes, there are some things that only can be found in nature, but there are also some things that are meant to contain/restrict the population. Some of the bloodlines in captivity that are going around are weak, but through natural selection in nature, the strongest, healthiest and fastest are the ones that survive to adulthood. But here in captivity, we don't just go around saying, "Hey that snake is slower than the rest of them, lets kill it!". :D

[ConcinusMan]

Like the garter snake of mine that died because it swallowed a hunk of carefresh that subsequently absorbed liquid and swelled up inside.

So don't feed them in their enclosures. I think it's highly unlikely that a snake would purposely swallow it unless it smelled like food or got stuck to food. And like I said, some substrates just work, some are better than others. If you must feed them in their enclosures then obviously in that situation you would want to use something that is less hazardous or harmless if swallowed.



In all fairness, nature doesn't provide optimal conditions, animals just adapt to the existing ones. All we learn from the natural conditions, is that they won't kill garters faster than the garters can reproduce. In fact, under natural conditions, garters are killed as fast as they can reproduce.
To use a more radical example of people knowing better: We don't brumate our animals under conditions that kill half of them each year.

I'm glad you answered that. You said exactly what I think, only you say it better than I could.:cool: